Not to worry--I don't let WH make me feel guilty about my parenting. It's just that I get really tired of listening to him dig me about it when I am well aware that he is not parenting right now and really has not parented much at all during our 18 years of being parents.

DD just called me and asked if I'm coming home and if we can go buy her Florida clothes tonight. Her going-out plans must have fallen through.

I'm not sure the cops can do anything about her taking off without my permission until she's been gone a certain amount of time, but it is something to consider. She already has a short record with them for her two prior times I've called her in. I guess I'm just afraid they'll decide she needs to be pulled from my home and put in a group home, and I have a niece (WH's sis's daughter) who was in one for almost 2 years and is probably worse now than when she went in.

I'd rather have help with the issues and keep her at home.

Speaking of WH and parenting, I asked him a couple days ago if he'd be willing to stay at our house tomorrow night while I'm gone and watch the kids. But see, he has this birthday party he's been invited to--for the husband of the couple that OW lives with. Who could possibly miss that?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, he gets a rare chance to actually spend time with the kids he rarely parents, and he passes it up. I may have my mother come stay with them overnight so that I don't have to fight DD about going with me. Poo on WH. His loss.

LL

Hopefully you would not have to involve the authorities. Do you think the fear of that would help keep her in line?

It's just so crucial that this be settled now, it'll be even harder as she gets older.

dewt

LL -

One day at a time. You can do this. Your WH probably needs to live uncomfortably to realize what he could lose.

Your daughter needs your help right now. I would insist on counseling if she still wants to live with you.

Dewt,

No, the fear of cop-calling doesn't seem to phase DD, even after I've done it twice. She has no fear. Zero. I'm not sure there's anything she's really afraid of right now, except losing her boyfriend. She's really been pretty much fearless since she was a baby.

Believer,

She does see a counselor every couple weeks still. And this counselor comes recommended as one who is supposed to be good with kids with "oppositional defiant disorder - ODD", if that's really a true condition?? (I think most of them, DD included, are just strong-willed rebelious spoiled kids).

She did stay home tonight because the hang-out-with-boyfriend idea didn't materialize. She turned down a chance to go downtown with friends though, because she knew I was on my way home to take her for clothes. We did a bit of shopping and then went out for tacos. It was an okay night together.

WH text'd me back a few minutes ago. He won't be watching DD tomorrow night. That birthday party thing was way too important to pass up, I guess.

LL

LL -

Just to give you some hope. I fought tooth and nails with my step-daughter. I told her I loved her and would not stand by and watch her destroy her life.

She is now with her boyfriend and has a 3 year old son. She is doing much better.

lordslady,

do not, i repeat, DO NOT buy her florida clothes! do not take her shopping at all! she lost the right to get new clothes when she disrespected your authority and your rules!

this is a good chance to show her there are consequences for wrong behavior. simply tell her that you do not feel it is appropriate for you to take her out to buy new things when she is making no effort to follow your rules! tell her that when she has EARNED new clothes by following the guidelines that you as her mother have set up, then you will take her shopping, but until then she can wear her old ones!

old attitude, old clothes. new attitude, new clothes!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

oh no. i just saw that you did take her shopping. why? why would you reward her after she informs you that she has no intention of obeying your rules? i don't mean to be harsh, but what you've done completely negates any idea of consequences. she told you she was going out regardless of your having said no, and you took her shopping? you can't do that!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ June 10, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: kriste ]</small>

LL, take Krist's advice. It is very tough to be tough. I remeber seeing a book called strong willed kids or somthing by James Dobson in a garage sale. I was thinking whehter to buy it, but didn't. I wished I have. But anyway, check that one out to see if it helps. I am sorry that I can't give you advie, but I give you all my support.

Uh oh. Yes, did buy clothes. But bought them more for me than for her. She'd be content to wear the ripped, artistically-embellished (i.e., drawn on), stained, old ones that she always wears. I was the one who wanted her to look semi-human by getting something new.

On the bright side, we did have a rare moment of agreement on what she purchased. She got two new skirts. She being the rebel, likes VERY short skirts that I don't approve of. She wanted skirts for Disney. I told her it wasn't going to work for the rides and suggested capris or shorts.

We settled on two very cute knit (and very short) skirts, but they have sewn-in shorts-like things underneath. They sort of remind me of my cheerleading skirts with the Danskins I used to wear under them, except the matching underthings are attached so can't be removed. So they suit her AND meet my requirements.

That's all I'm buying her. She's taking her ratty shirts with her. She doesn't want new ones.

We are starting with a clean slate at this moment. She has been allowed to go to a picnic later this afternoon and into early evening. She is to be home by 7pm or thereabouts. I will be out of town. My mom is coming to watch the house.

DD has been informed that if she does NOT show up this evening, I will have people out looking for her, it will be ugly, and I will take things away.
She promises that she WILL be home. We'll see.

----------------------------------------------
WH called this morning. He and a coworker were working on a vehicle on the interstate right out behind our neighborhood. He could see our house from the road, and called to ask whose grey car was in my driveway.

I could have had fun and made up some story, but I'm too slow and anyway, that's lying.

It's DS's girlfriend's dad's car, because her's is not running right and her dad is working on it.

I think WH thought he'd caught me in something. He's asked me a couple times lately if I'm seeing anyone (probably because I stopped begging him to quit seeing OW and come home, and because I've told him he can't come home the way he is and that I'm not sure I want to remain M to him).

Now he sees the unfamiliar land yacht in my driveway and he thought he had me good. I think he's hoping that eventually I start seeing someone to ease his guilt.

I'm debating how long I should continue to stay in this the way I am. I have a couple people here at work hounding me to file for D, telling me that if he changes, I can always remarry him, but that right now his high-risk lifestyle is putting me financially at a lot of risk simply by being M to him.

So where do you draw the line between trusting in God to keep you safe and doing what is financially wise? What would God want me to do at this point?

WH will never file for D ever. It costs money and he's perfectly content to do what he's doing for as long as he wants to do it, and then when and if he ever gets tired of it, he'll decide at that point if he wants to come back to me (and will expect me to be there with open arms like I was last time) or he'll stay single and again, it won't matter if he's really D or not. He gets benefits staying M. We file taxes jointly, he's in a lower tax bracket, and he pays nothing for health insurance because he's on my plan at work.
He's not a complete dummy!

If it weren't for his risky lifestyle (the drinking, the auto accident, the nearly getting thrown in jail at the bar, etc.)...if he were being a semi-responsible adult except for the A, I'd feel fairly safe just setting and waiting for a while. I'm just not sure it's the wisest move anymore. Any thoughts??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

The latest...

DD didn't go to the picnic. She hung with her boyfriend for a little while and called me to pick her up at 6:15pm. She's going out with friends tonight and I've set a curfew. She has been told that if I call grandma (she's staying at the house in my absence) and DD isn't home, my next call will be the police. We'll see how it goes.

I'm leaving tonight for my sis's for our annual garage sale (i.e., family social event). I make nothing there but I get rid of a little junk and I get to spend a day with my sis. It's a nice day away.

WH called this evening. Insurance is going to settle very nicely with him for his truck, and on top of that, the buyback is much lower than he'd expected. He's definitely buying it back, and will either do the minimum to put it back on the road in decent shape, or will sell it to someone else wrecked (for more then his buyback), and either way, will come out with a decent sum of money, it appears. If he keeps it, he'll pocket the extra $. If it sells it, he'll take all the $ and go buy a bigger truck, he thinks.

How does he always manage to turn lemons into lemonade?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'm not asking for any of the $ even though we're still legally M. It's his truck, his $. I did tell him it'd be nice if he gave each of the kids a little for their Florida trip.

So now he's all happy and nice and funny and confusing the heck out of me.

LL

i think you need to protect yourself and your children. if that means you have no choice but to divorce, then there's no shame in that!

also, your daughter's boyfriend. do you know his parents? how old he is? perhaps if you also add to the list of consequences that if she's late, a phone call to police asking them to check for her at his house, she'll think twice about staying out late? and if not, perhaps you could talk to his parents and ask them not to allow your daughter in their house?

one thing i remember from my younger years is how it felt to have my parents in touch with my friends parents, i'd do quite a bit to avoid that!

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: kriste ]</small>

Wow--way down on page 2, I was!

The garage sale with sis was good. No, I didn't make anything--it's a social event. But we visited and laughed and went out for Chinese food and had a nice time. Mom stayed with my kids and my DD did, in fact, come home by her curfew.

Actually, DD and I have been getting along a little better again. I know we'll have ups and downs. I've given her freedom to go places but maybe at least briefly, the threat of calling the law and her running out of chances with them may have sunk in a little again.

We had a nice chat while shopping for a swimsuit for her for Florida tonight, and when I said "I'm sorry, I don't really know what relationship advice to offer you, considering mine isn't too solid right now." She responded, "That's okay. I just like talking to you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Nicest thing I've heard in a while from her.
-----------------------------------------------

On the WH front, I guess he got a rental car this weekend. Turns out the birthday party that left him unable to stay with the kids on Friday night was actually just the PREPARATION for the actual party which was supposed to be Saturday. Not sure it happened. Sounds like the husband and wife are talking D now.

I haven't spoken with him since that conversation. He did send a text asking how the sale went yesterday.

And then I sent one today telling him the car window broke and is now stuck in the "down" position and asked him to go ahead and order the motor thingie we know it needs and asked if he'd be willing to put it on (since he's offered to work on my car).

His text back said he'd come look at it at the house tonight if he could crash here and take a real shower (as opposed to the garden hose and bucket of Dawn, I guess... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

I said fine, just no comments about the house please. I've not heard back. I'm sure that house comment ticked him off. Stick my foot in my mouth.

I really don't know what I want. I go back and forth. Today I came out of church feeling rather guilty because both the Sunday school lesson and the sermon were about letting God be in charge and doing His will and finding peace and happiness. NOT in putting myself first or thinking about me.

And so I said "What would Jesus do in this situation." And then a lady from church was telling me again about her sister who's H left a number of years ago and how she chose not to D him but to just live M but separated for years. I'm not sure but I think the guy finally died.

One day I feel pretty good because I'm more at peace--no yelling, no pressure, no eggshells, no thoughts of what WH is doing and why he's not here.

The next day I feel like my life is on hold and that some day someone might show an interest in me and then I'd have to say "No, I'm married", and yet I want a companion to share my life with, and I don't have one. (NO, I am NOT dating while M!! Just making a point. And who knows, maybe no one will ever show interest and then it's a non-issue.)

And then the next day I say, "I can't leave WH and D him. God hates D. It will ruin H's life."

And then the next day I'm back to thinking, "What if WH has an accident or does something stupid and we lose everything because I'm still legally married to him? But then where is my faith that God will take care of me no matter what might happen financially?

Ugh. Confusion.... Confusion.... Confusion...

And I'm also a little worried about my own mind. When I came to church this morning, the first thing I did was look around to see if that widowed guy I've mentioned was there. He wasn't. This was probably good in that I could focus totally on the sermon and worship and not on any other thoughts, but I realize I'm thinking of other people and not WH and that's not good.

Do the rest of you ever feel as nuts as I am ever??

I'm at peace...but I'm sad. I'm happy...but I feel guilty. I don't want my life on hold forever...but I don't think I should bail. I want to do what God wants me to do...but I would like to experience a normal relationship.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

<small>[ June 13, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL - I was checking the guys out at church today too. So don't feel all alone. Just don't act on anything.

Believer,

Not to worry--not acting on anything and right now, nothing to act on anyway. But the guy stopped once at my house and told DD to tell me if I ever needed help with anything like the lawn, he or his son would be glad to come help me. And he does make a point every now and then to stop and ask me how I'm doing. I'm sure it's totally innocent, but my sis keeps saying, "I'll bet he's interested in you."

It does make me think (because I would't know interest if it kicked me in the head!) about what if he really did notice me? And what if he was wondering what I was going to do? And what if he really would be someone I would enjoy spending time with? But it's not an option. Thus, I avoid him unless he comes to talk to me. And what if I wait and miss a good opportunity to be with someone "normal" by waiting on a WH who may never come around?

But I guess this is where FAITH comes in. If it's supposed to happen, God will make it so. I just seem to have had lousy timing all my life. Each time I should do something, I wait too long and I screw it up because I can't make a decision. I'll probably still be asking myself in a year "what should I do", WH will still be off doing his thing, and widower will have found himself a nice woman.

See...told you my mind is screwed up!

So, Believer, what will you do if your WH doesn't come back around to you? Will you ever file for D? I sort of feel like if I ever do, I'm giving up--that I should wait for WH to do it so that I can know I did everything I could do. But then again, I know he never will. He's already said that.

Obviously it's not an issue for him to see OW and be M, and it's not an issue for her to do the same. She's still M, but she sees him, and her WH is living with his girlfriend. The M vows don't seem to get in their way, and as far as I know, neither WH or OW ever intend to take vows with anyone else again.

I hear so many on here remind others that there's always hope because the WS is bouncing back and forth, so obviously needs are still being met by the BS. In my case, this really isn't so, I don't think.

His only bouncing my way is to text me every now and then about little things, or to work on my things (because he still cares and to relieve a bit of guilt, I imagine, by "taking care of me" still). Other than that, I meet no needs. His needs seem to be drinking, doing a few recreational drugs, sleeping, riding his cycle, and most likely SF. I am meeting none.

And by the way, it's now 10:30pm and he's still not here after his offer, so I guess he took the "no comments about the house" statement to mean I didn't want him here, which is half-true.
I was going to try and Plan A and see if there were feelings or how it went. Guess it's a non-issue, too. No huge surprise.

LL

Hmmm. I don't think I am going to divorce WH. I'm going to let him divorce me.

He says he is bothered by having an A, but I don't think so. I watch what he does. He meets none of my needs, and does nothing for me.

So I am going to continue my life without him. And I plan to have a good life. There are always lots of men around, and if I meet one someday, I might get a divorce. But right now, I have no desire to meet one. Still I look.

I guess my WH still meets a few of my needs. He did finally show up after calling to ask if it was too late to come by, and he did temporarily fix my car window so that it doesn't fall down. He's going to look for the part while I'm gone.

He's being civil--almost scared of me. He ate the quickie late out-of-a-box dinner I fixed and thanked me for it. He seems to be sober. He's drinking lots of water, says he doesn't feel good, and looks really flushed. I don't think is health is that great right now.

He's going to sleep on the couch. I'm sleeping in my bed this time.

As long as I don't think if what is really going on, it almost feels normal. Just no intimate feelings toward him whatsoever. Sort of feels like having a kid home from college on break, I think (though I won't really experience that in reality until this fall). He's a part of my family and in my mind probably always will be, no matter what, but he doesn't feel like a H.

LL

Okay, everyone would have been proud. I did a good Plan A last night while WH was at my house. I cooked a quick dinner. I did not bring up OW or our M or anything. I let him watch TV. I visited when he wanted but shut up when he didn't want to. I saw to it that he had a blanket and a pillow with a nice, fresh pillowcase when he went to sleep. I woke him in time for work this morning. I thanked him for fixing (temporarily) my car window. I brought him a towel for his shower. And I told him goodbye and to be careful when he left for work.

There were no arguments.

I have been reading a couple posts on here and am back to my semi-frustrated state where I feel obligated to wait, even if it's for the rest of my life, just in case God does ever work in his heart and change it and he comes back. Otherwise, I feel that I'm setting him up for failure. I may be "cleared" to move on, if I want, because of the A.

But if I don't wait--if I do D, then have I really done all I was supposed to do? And maybe that does mean staying away from men for the rest of my life...just in case when I'm 50 or something, WH comes back.

I hate the thought. It actually makes me rather angry. But I realize when I get this way that I'm putting me first and not others.

LL

Latest from WH, who called me over lunch and we actually talked a bit:

He thinks he may be having issues with the kidney he had surgery on 6 years ago. I encouraged him to see his specialist before the kidney fails. This got me talking about how, though at this moment I don't love him like a husband, I will always care about him. Also said I know that God can open one's heart and let love come back.

I did say there would have to be big changes and that the way he used to live on top of giving up OW and drinking, and that the not calling and not coming home would have to change or I'd never ever be able to trust him again, because I'd always wonder if he was seeing someone else.

He is going to have to figure out permanent housing soon, he says. He didn't say what it would be, but said that OW is pushing hard for them to rent a house. She got a job three days ago doing clerical work for an insurance company(this is another 'need' she's now met of his...he hated that she had no job.)

On the other hand, he says he loves me and when I asked who he wanted (I know, not supposed to ask that), he hesitated quite a while and then said he wanted his old life back. He said he thought it was h*ll when he left, but that he is even less happy now.

I told him that part of why I haven't made any moves any direction (as in D) is that I don't want to screw up his future because I do care about him. I told him, though, that I didn't want to put my life on hold forever either. I said I'm okay right now doing this, but what if I'm still sitting here at Christmastime or a year from now saying, "What should I do?"

His response, "You won't be."

What does that mean? Who knows? I really read very little into it. I know he's really uncomfortable with where he is and I suspect he is thinking there is no way to ever unwind the damage that has been done. But on the other hand, he is obviously not ready to give up OW either and is contemplating moving in with her (something he told me earlier, if he ever did that, there would be no turning back).

Also, as far as husband/wife that OW is living with, seems now they are going to work on their M. H says he can't live without W. I was correct, though, in that it was suggested that if H moved out, that my WH would move in with the two women and room there. He said he couldn't have done it though because he couldn't stand to live with all the girls (OW's two and her roommate's 2).

So I just keep circling...around and around. What to do?

I'm looking forward to my Florida vacation with the kids tomorrow, even though it will be bittersweet being the first vacation I've taken w/o my WH in our 23 years together.

I'm also wondering if I will need to change churches before long. I do find myself wondering if the widower would ever be interested in dating, and am sure that's making a difference in my thoughts of if I want to hang in there and wait on my WH. If there was absolutely nothing of any interest on the horizon, and if I stayed away from single men (work is safe--none here), I might be more focused on my M. But with there being just the teeniest of possibilities, I think of that and then I get impatient for things to resolve themselves one way or the other so that I'm not just in limbo.

Patience....I know that has to be part of God's plan for me!!!

LL

LL,

You are doing so much better than you were some months ago. Hard to believe you're the same person. Kudos to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">both the Sunday school lesson and the sermon were about letting God be in charge and doing His will and finding peace and happiness. NOT in putting myself first or thinking about me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You keep going back to this and similar thoughts. Have you considered that you should step back and let God be in charge of your H's life? That it is not up to YOU to save your H, but it is up to your H to answer God's call?

Regarding finding peace and happiness, you are doing that. For yourself and your children. That is not "putting yourself first". "Putting yourself first" would be walking out on the lot fo them. You have left the door open for H, he hasn't responded. You have done all you could do and more. PLEASE whatever you do, don't waste any more energy thinking you're putting yourself first.

A person who puts themselves first wouldn't look so long and hard and honestly at themselves. They wouldn't make the changes you have made. They wouldn't learn the hard lessons of how to quit being co-dependent. They'd live for the moment, whereas you live for eternity.

But *you* can't save H. That's between H and God.

You know, Turtlehead, sometimes someone posts something to me that should just be framed and hung where I can read it over and over....

Thanks.

LL

Well all,

WH spent a second night at my house. I shouldn't let him, but he wanted to bring the kids their money before we leave for Florida today and I'm sure wanted to take another REAL shower instead of the makeshift one he's been taking at the shop.

He'd already eaten so I didn't cook. He just sat and watched TV.

I'm worried about him. He admitted that his urine looks like iced tea about half the time. I'm guessing it's blood. He passed a kidney stone a week ago with no difficulty--a tiny one, so I'm not sure if he could have more stones still in his kidney causing bleeding, or if he has something more serious going on. He did have surgery on a congenital defect 6 years ago with his left kidney and I'm concerned that it's failing now..

The caring side of me wants him to get himself fixed before something really bad happens, if it hasn't already. The selfish side of me is thinking if he lets it go and ends up off work, he has no disability insurance, and I'd be without any child support.

He was looking at duplexes and larger apartments last night--icky ones though--in his price range. I assume this means he's looking for enough to space to move OW in, though he denies it. He was upset--couldn't find anything he liked that had A/C.

Should I have encouraged him not to move her in and told him to consider my previous offer of coming back home if he gives her up and quits drinking and we get M help? I didn't say anything like that to him. I just let him talk.

OW called him last night while he was here, and he of course said rather gruffly, "I'm NOT answering that!". I'm sure it's exactly the same thing he says when I call and he's with her.

Again, he was calm, and non-drinking. It was just sort of a roommate thing. He did his thing; I did mine, and we stayed out of each other's way.

My feelings go from non-existant to feeling sad for what all has been lost over the last 9 months that at this point looks like there's little hope of changing.

----------------------------------------------
On a completely OT but VERY IRRITATING note: Do any of you remember the nice leather sofa I purchased (and will be paying for for the next 5 years) right before DS's grad party last month?

It has three purple PERMANENT magic marker spots (and yes, very noticable) on it. I am SOOOOOOO angry I could have spit fire last night! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

DD admitted it (I knew it was her because she constantly draws on herself.) Her only response, "Try fingernail polish remover."

Of course probably nothing will take it out, as it's soaked into the pores of the leather. I will call a leather expert just to ask, but here I am for the next 10 years with this nice leather sofa with purple lines jumping out at me. They're not in a spot where a throw can be placed, either!

Why does she do this???! Why does she have no understanding of boundaries or respect for property? I know, it's just a material possession. But still... I have NOTHING that is mine that doesn't get ruined. I guess I'm destined to just have junk until/unless she ever grows up and moves out.

LL