I haven't had time to properly comment on this... new job (thankfully - and yay!), and I've been whipped.

This situation has really made me think about what I believe.

About fifteen years ago, I got involved in the life and marriage of our next door neighbor. Her H was a pig and he beat her. We could hear everything. She ran to our door after he'd kicked her brutally, and I took her to the hospital, helped her file the report, and brought her home with me.

I hate to say this, but *OF COURSE*, as so often happens, she went back to the scum. And what happened? They both hated me and made my life a living he11 for the next two years. I never really got over that. It was awful.

If I'd had KiwiJ's phone number, I don't know that I would have made that call myself. I might have, but I don't know. Ethically, I think it was the right thing to do... just as I think it was the right thing to take my neighbor to the hospital... but I've turned into a bit of a chicken about getting involved in other's lives.

I just wish it hadn't come to Mel needing to make the call. I wish Jen could have told her H. But since it did, and since Jen clearly feels relief, it has renewed my faith in reaching out a bit.

I am hoping and praying for a great outcome, Jen and Rob. And Mel, just (((((((Mel)))))) that had to be very hard.

If a person (BS or FWS) calls Steve Harley

and reveals what is going on in their life and with
their feelings,

(even if it is they have broken NC with a former OP)

DOES STEVE HARLEY CALL THE BS ON THE PHONE AND
EXPOSE ALL THAT WAS TOLD TO HIM BY THAT PERSON?

I would think we should follow his guide since this is
the Harley's Marriage Building forum.
"Building marriages to last a lifetime."

I feel these marriage forums hold a similar trust between
the poster and the reader. A SAFE place to vent, whether a
BS or a FWS or a WS.

JMHO

no

hipaa laws apply to professional therapists, not to a public message board members

if SH thought there was child abuse, he'd be obligated to report

as a professional, he operates under different rules

Pep

You can debate this all you like but I'm pleased Mel called and so is Rob.

I wish I'd had the courage to do it myself but I was paralysed by fear.

I am finally being totally honest about everything and we are progressing well.

Grace, you can't stop people e-mailing each other just because its an "unwritten" rule of the board. I e-mailed Mel from work using my real name because I look on her as a friend I can trust. We've all been talking on here a long time and I "know" these people well.

Grace, a few weeks ago you advised a WS


Why did that BS 'deserve to know' and this gentle man didn't ?

Jenny I am delighted you are progressing !!! a Prayer answered !!

Jen and Rob, my prayers are with you both.

way too long Grace. WAY TOO LONG!!

and your point is??

i'm not actually looking for an answer to that question.

there were people in my life that saw me self-destructing the way i was. people close to me. including my siblings and pastor. and no one really did anything bold enough to help me. no one did anything to protect my DH. and i have a hard time sometimes making sense of it all.

i still love my siblings, although i feel disulliosioned about their love to me. it's a conflicting thing.

i know how my DH feels about it. he has no problem cutting them out of his life. and i can't blame that for him. he has that right.

but i have not made that same choice. they are still my siblings and i still love them. it's just not in me to stop. is that a bad thing?

and at the same time, i look at my own actions too...

my sister was in a bad situation when she was married. i didn't do enough bold things to help her. she was letting herself be abused and she was letting her boys grow up in that environment. i can say i didn't know enough, because she hid it from us, but that wouldn't be totatlly true. i didn't get involved enough.

so how can i really hold it against them for not getting involved more?

i no longer go to that same church and i don't see how i ever can. i am very disappointed in that pastor. he could of made a huge difference. i confided in him extremely early in the mess. he could of really helped. and i don't understand why he didn't. i doubt i ever will.

grace, how do you know my story so well?? you have only been posting for a short time...

Well, guys, I am sure you are all right and I am wrong.
(Bob, I agree that Kiwi's husband should know, I just didn't agree on a MB stranger telling him.)

You all have been here much longer than I have.

I actually do not belong here spouting off my thoughts because I am neither a BW or a WW.

I am 37 years old and my husband died in a boating accident, a year ago this month. He was loving and wonderful and a good dad to our 2 sons.

I just came here out of lonliness and because several friends from church were experiencing infidelity.
(FL, I was reading a long time before I ever posted,
even before my husband died, but more often when I was without him.)

I will not be posting anymore. I'm sorry for posting my sometimes fluky thoughts.

I need to find a family forum; not a marriage building forum.

Thanks to all.

grace, just so you know, i didn't mind you saying what you said about me, i was just curios.

i'm sorry about the loss of your husband!!!

perhaps a forum about grieving the loss of a spouse would be helpful for you? i don't know. i can't imagine how hard that must be for you, especially with the boys. again i am sorry for your loss.

all the best

Jen - about that lamb........

FWIW, I thought about you a lot and considered e-mailing you, but I obviously didn't. Don't know what I would have written that hadn't already been said here. Please forgive my inaction to do so.

I'll bet we all have our own threshold for when we decide to insert ourselves into somebody else's business - presumbaly acting on their behalf for their own good. I think this belongs someplace in the definition of "friendship". I'm glad Mel had the mangoes to do this. I'm trying to figure out how much beyond this my personal threshold would have been for you. I'll claim that it would have been a no-brainer for somebody I had a face-to-face friendship with. Also a no brainer (from the other dircetion) for a complete stranger. Someplace in-between is my tipping point.

Mel - thanks for giving me something to ponder.

WAT

Grace, GQII has plenty of room for everyone, including those who are not going through/have not been through infidelity. You are not the first non-A person here, and you won't be the last. If you're lonely, IMO you shouldn't leave, not unless you really really want to.

(You might also enjoy the feminine hygiene products aisle, if you have not already been there. Some of the time, yes there is A-related posting on there, but mostly it is about each of our lives, whether funny or sad, and often both at the same time. Several of us there are dealing with the loss of close family members, and you will find a great deal of understanding.)

Before getting married in the Catholic Church FWW and I were required to attend an Engaged Encounter weekend. We were also assigned the equivalent of a councilor for three months of preparation and discernment. (I’ll leave it to a different thread about how much of what we learned took root in FWW, or me.)

Anyway, in one session the councilor drew a series of expanding concentric circles representing the influences of others, groups and the progressive levels of intimacy and responsibility present in each or our lives. At the center is the individual and God. Next are husband and wife. Next out are immediate family and children. Next are both FOOs. Next was … and so on. Near the middle of these expanding rings is the community of all marriages.

Yes, each married couple has an implied relationship with and responsibility to the covenant of marriage, all marriages. Thus, a need for watching the backs of other marriages. For holding standards of marriage up to the light for all to see. For living a good example, for being a good friend to marriage and being the equivalent of an accountability partner to society at large.

IMO there is very little butting-into-other’s-business when exposing adultery. No more so than the ethical requirement to expose, interrupt and hold accountable perpetrators of child abuse or spouse abuse. Affairs are a form of spouse abuse, in any case. It is ethically required of each of us to get involved. Carefully, but involved nonetheless.

Peggy Vaughan published an article about society’s acceptance of secrecy and don’t get involved attitude in one of her books. The following excerpt is on her website. I’ve linked it before, but here it is again. I think it fairly presents the need for anyone who believes in the sanctity of marriage to get involved in exposing adultery no matter where it is found, even if half a world away.

http://www.dearpeggy.com/secrets.html

Marriage is a lot more than just a legal contract. A legal contract is part of it, but even if that is all it was each of us is a party to that contract. We all should be held to the social contract part of it at the very least. IMO, you break this contract at your peril. A huge segment of society will call you on it, will hold you accountable and will expose you to the consequences of your actions. And this is good for society in general.

Notice that I have not even raised the moral issues (yet). All the forgoing is only from the standpoint of what is good for individuals, their contracts, ethics, and the society we live in.

With prayers,

OT: The label vigilante as being something bad was used in this thread. In case anyone is interested, they were the good guys, actually. The original vigilantes were formed in Virginia City, MT. They were ordinary citizens who had to protect their isolated frontier society from a very bad and murderous gang that was led by the sheriff of the county. There was no one else to help them; they had to help themselves. It wasn’t until the 1920’s that eastern liberals started to paint them as bad. In reality they risked their lives to protect their neighbors.

The password of the vigilantes, 3-7-77, is still stamped on the badges of MT highway patrolmen.

OK, history lesson over.

Grace - I hope you keep posting. We need all the help we can get. And I think you have a very valid point regarding confidentiality and being safe.

Believer wrote:

"Grace - I hope you keep posting. We need all the help we can get. And I think you have a very valid point regarding confidentiality and being safe."

Grace, I too thought about your point. This is an anonymous forum and so none of us would want people playing detective and figuring out who we are. However, whenever any of us chooses to get to know a fellow MBer on a more personal level we are crossing over to a different relationship. I have been here for over 2 yrs. There are some people who I care about deeply, but will probably never cross that line. Particularly my MB male friends. However, there are some here who I have gotten to know offline. All's fair in that scenerio. It's obvious that what Mel did probably saved Jen's M. All the hand holding and unconditional love probably wasn't going to break through her fear.

Concerning whether a MC legally should tell a BS about a continuing A. A main reason I am against a couple using a MC also as an IC is because of this. The couple should be the client. A C is put into a very difficult situation if he/she has to keep that secret. Our MC will not see either of us individually. He has for a rare session, but has said clearly he will not be either one of our IC.

Sorry for your loss. Stick around if this place is helpful to you.

Well, Grace, sometimes we just can't be picky about who warns us, can we? If your bookkeeper were stealing money from you would you give a damn who called you just as long as you were told? Of course you wouldn't.

It's too bad that Jen didn't tell him, but in the end the most important thing is that he WAS TOLD, not WHO told him. It matters very little who did the telling.

ML - the one and only time I have been involved in somebody else's infidelity IRL it ended in divorce. Two children now live in Australia 3000+ miles from their dad. Is it my fault; No. But it felt like it for a long time. Ironically, while I was busy getting involved in this lady's marital problems, unbeknown to me my husband was heavily involved in his A.

This whole episode has made my head very sore the past couple of days. You were the one with the information. You did what you deemed right. I apologise for the tone of my kneejerk reaction. I'm sure you wear very nice shoes. TT

Does that mean the mud wrestling is off? Darn.

I personally love JELLO WRASSLIN'!!!

and I will jello wrassl anyone on this board! (and win)