the ones who have been at it as long as me and have gotten no-where. and i dont mean anyone new to this ought to even be thinking of this.....

ive been tossing around the idea of telling him ive had an affair too.

i have tried everything to break into his emotional fort knox of a vault protcting his emotions and nothing works. any ideas about this and have you ever thought of it yourself. i know i cant be alone in thinking this....but he aint getting it.

now this can go two ways---i know this. but really what have i got to lose---i have been in limboland for 3 years waiting for something, anything.
lets discuss this. and unless you can say youve been where i am--please dont flame me---if you have been where i am---flame away! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

nikko

I haven't been there, but if you are a disciple of the MB program, that's quite a departure from Radical Openness and Honesty! I am under the impression that you have not really had an affair, from the way you asked your question.

It will be interesting to see the responses you get!

Happy Holiday weekend!
SD

3 years in what kind of plan? Dont tell me plan B?

Yes...i have thought of that idea too but since i am in plan B...i dont care about WH or OW anymore (or trying to)...I think i better stick to not caring or else it would only drag me back into that dark pit again.

I too have thought about this just so he could feel the pain that I have. But think about it. You would be saying that morally this is ok and I think you would be helping him justify his actions because you were capable too. I am so close to calling it quits that sometimes i would love to hurt him in that way, but then I realize that I am a better person than that. I love calling the b----- homewrecker immoral and a slut. I surely don't want to become or pretend to become like her. If i walk away from this M, I want to do so with my head held high and let him think about his actions that broke up our family. And I never want my DD to think that i was capable of such a thing. Revenge can be a dangerous thing. Do you really think this would accomplish anything other than feeling good for a moment? If I were you, I would take the high ground and show yourself the respect that you deserve. Let them be the ones that screwed up and have issues.

I have not been where you are, and I am not flaming you. I am just a bit confused and was wondering a couple of things.

First, what do you think this would do to Ft. Knox? Break the doors open? Will this news break the strong dam that he has built around his reservoir of emotions, and then they (the emotions) will come flooding out?

And do you think he would seriously believe you? I just know if I told my H that I had one, after all I have been through with his A, I don't think he would believe me.

Perhaps you have talked about this before, and the older member NUMBERS (NOT older members - phew, saved that one!) know the answers to my above questions.

Thanks for having patience with this "newbie."

SS

Yes I have thought about it as well. Not seriously but in moments of complete frusteration I have! Then the reasonable voice in my head speaks out and says many different things to totally remove that thought.
-if the tables were turned, I know that he would not hold on like I have!
-two wrongs don't make a right!
-I would then have to face him and God with the truth and ask for forgiveness and that is a position I don't ever want to be in.
-I don't ever want to be thought of the same way he has been by friends, family etc.
-I too think very low of the OW (b**ch, homewrecker etc) and would not ever want to be put in the same catagories.

Bottom line is I think that all of us BS have had some really bad or unreasonable thoughts but we don't act on them because we have more morals and values than that! I will be praying for you and your family!

Hi nikko,

I commend you for hanging on for so long.I KNOW I will not be able to for the long.Nothing is changing for me either and frankly,I am tired of waiting.My WH knows how much I love him,how much I want this marriage,how much I love our family and want to stay together BUT he has done zero to try and make this work.He has done everything to make the "relationship" with homewrecker work,or try to.They still haven't had a healthy doese of reality yet,living so far apart.

I think telling your WH you had an A is wrong and it will get you nowhere you want to be.Like the other's mentioned,your WH will either not believe you or use it against you to continue on in his bad behavior.He CANNOT possibly feel the kind of pain you are in because he is not in that frame of mind.Maybe if your WH's OW did it to HIM,then perhaps but to me it is a waste of time and I prefer to be on the moral highground.I can face myself in the mirror each day because I have not done what WH has and continues to do and also I need to set a good and positive example for my daughters.What WH has done solves nothing,only causes more pain.

I can understand your frustration and want to do something to get your WH to open up and feel for you but that's the wrong way IMVHO.Not flaming ya just telling you what I think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sicne you don't have a sig line,what's your status? Plan B? Kids? etc?

O

Hi Nikko - geez, hon, I don't know. I have extreme doubts that will do any good and I have huge worries that you'll actually set yourself up for more pain if he doesn't react the way you're hoping for. I don't think that game-playing is necessarily the answer.

I remember your situation pretty well, and I also remember feeling the same frustration you do. I guess I was lucky that H and I were both able to make changes to meet each others needs better. I do mean both - because the truth is my needs have become much easier to meet since I made some changes.

Can I ask you some questions, Nikko??

Do you feel your husband has made ANY changes as to better meeting your needs?

What needs do you feel you have that are being completely unmet?

How have you communicated that to your H?

What changes have YOU made in the past 3 years?

What is it that you are really wanting from your husband in terms of change?

In what way has your marriage changed since your discovery of the affair (it was a while back, wasn't it??)? Has it gotten better, worse?? Have YOU started doing anything differently, or do you still do the same things you did before (jobs, stuff around the house, hobbies etc..)?

I guess what I'm looking for is what has changed, if anything, and what you're really looking to change.

ok--first off, i have not had an affair nor will i ever. just aint gonna happen.

sd--yes i know its a departure--but nothing is working.
zizzy---plan a
coolduck---same response i would have givven and probably did 2 1/2 yrs ago.
s/s---i have no idea what it would do---but dealing with an emotionless lump for my whole marriage is growing old . he has NO emotions---unless you count plastichappy as one.and yes he would believe me.
mom--we are not talking a real affair here---just telling him i did. calm down. i would never do it.
october--there is no longer an ow. he is just refusing to do anything for recovery--since d-day. i live with the king of conflict avoiders and the statement i allways here is---im here arent i. well actually no hunny---you aint. your body is, but your emotions are in storage.

aaahhh--hope--i know you do know what i am talking about. let me try to answer the questions one by one

flat ou refuses to meet my needs---any of them--has no time or isnt interested. to hard --whatever

unmet needs---well after being emotionally starved in this marriage for 12 yrs i would take any---lol but i will condense it.
intimate conversations---we couldnt go on a stupid game show like the dating game and get one right answer. i really do mean that---we have NO conversation other than he had a ****ty/ok day.

go out with me more---anywhere

pay attention to my sexual needs---his number one is you guessed it ladies---and i still aint gettin any

spend time with me---anything awake will do. i would even love it if he slept in our bed more than once a week.

told him in writing, verbally in writting a few more times, thru the counselor, and in writting again. does all the years of begging for these things count too???

the changes ive made are countless--i dont even know where to begin. and yes i have been meeting needs i believe are his top ones consistently--since he flat out refuses to do the needs questions i am guessing. so to cover my bases i do all 10 of the needs--juggling them regularly so i dont miss something. try that for 3 years and flame me. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (thank god i still have a sense of humor)

no changes to the marriage since-d-day. i am still in the ****ty marriage i had before--which is why i am thinking of pulling out the big guns. i have made my boundry and told him if he didnt get with the program and counseling to fix this he was out come summer. he goes to counseling and just sits. in 4-5 sessions he has said a totall of maybe 15 words. doesnt even make up a whole sentance. counselor is getting frustrated too. but his solution is"TALK TO HER" THAT AINT WORKING...WELCOME TO MY WORLD!

what am i waiting for---for us to be a priority. us and our marriage. counselor asked him this flat out and husband looked him in the eye and said he didnt have time. oookkkkayyy----if he continues this way i am gone.

hun---my whole life has changed---i am no longer the person i was before---we all know that. have i done things differently since in the three years---yes. but the marriage is still the same.

so anyone got any ideas----he just flat out would love for it to stay this way and i will no longer have an un-intimate relationship.

lieing is not gonna fix anything, and unlikely you could pull it off anyways...the real question is why are youstill there...a martyr complex?

Divorce is a wakeup call too, you will get a response if you divorce him....

1. His attention and committment....finally

2. Or nothing, and you can get on with your life having exscaped the emotional wasteland you voluntarily inhabit.

dear sufdb---let me ask you---how well did it work for you??????
divorce i mean???? did ya wake up---i dont think so.

see---to me i took vows and they meant/mean something and divorce isnt used as a wake-up call.

what i was asking was did anyone else think this and have you acted on it??? just a question

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> dear sufdb---let me ask you---how well did it work for you??????
divorce i mean???? did ya wake up---i dont think so.

see---to me i took vows and they meant/mean something and divorce isnt used as a wake-up call.

what i was asking was did anyone else think this and have you acted on it??? just a question </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It has worked as it should, both of us are now able to deal better with our personal issues. I have also been forced to deal with my relgious zealotry (same as yours), and recognize that vows are empty if the marriage is dysfunctional, and living such is a violation of God's command to not be legalistic. In short, using God as an excuse to live an unhealthy life is not what He has in mind for us, re marriage or anything else.... The unique thing about marriage is it involved someone else, so is not just up to us...it is a synergy that has to work on it's own merits, not just cause we have peice of paper or made a vow (verbal version of peice of paper)...we cannot impose our will on God, and He is not (IMO) going to fix unhealthy marital decisions, that is the nature of freewill. That is what I learned, others disagree...but re the wakeup call, that is just semantics, the point is divorce is a logical step in a continuing process of forcing marital resolution, and is Biblically sanctioned (at least in the sense of seperation, divorce itself is a conflictual topic), when one is misbehaving (as is your H...neglect is a huge misbehavior). The conumndrum is simple nikko, if someone knows you will not divorce them, you remove the natural consequence of losing your spouse, and that fear is what finally motivates some (or if not, you have no marriage, only empty vows) to engage...so you understand? And that is my point, judgeing by what you said, nothing else has been effective...not your well-being, not gettting more needs of his met, not threats of divorce...etc. Perhaps if you had a near death experience, or a mental breakdown (both "losing" you scenarios...or actually started dating another man...same same) you would get the same result...but all those would be hard on you....filing for (and meaning it of course) divorce is your best option.....or suck it up, and prepare for a life of unending sacrifice hoping/praying someday your H will finally "see" you....but could be decades....or never...your call.

A couple of more questions, Nikko.

How are you meeting your own needs? You said you want to go out more - have you made plans and asked him to go along? Have you enrolled in anything, or signed up for any clubs or events that you would enjoy with or without him?

You said you're a completely different person - can you tell me how? I DON'T DOUBT that you are - I just want to hear it from you.

Overall - marriage issues aside - how are you enjoying life? I don't remember - do you work outside the home? Do you feel that if your marriage were in a good spot that your life would be satisfying - or are there other things you would change as well??

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to get a better sense of things before I pretend I know anything and offer advice.

nikko,
I just came on to lurk, but I just felt I had to login and reply. I have read your posts and replied to you some. I thought things were in his court now? Anyway, please let me ask you a question that may not make any sense. Are you helping him to hold up the dam? 3 years seems like a long time to hold anything back. I know you are committed and you love him. what if you reduced or even let off the pressure? Would the dam break under its own force? Somtimes I think I'm doing the same thing with my W, so I really pull back. Then I see some of those emotions come out. I know men are different, but we have deep emotions also. I would say most men are very sentimental.

I understand your desparation. Maybe you would say someting like do you ever think I might have an A? He knows all the "reasons" to have one and him not meeting your EN's would qualify. Could he picture you in one? Could you say that without it sounding threatening? I think most who have been in an A are looking for a safe landing zone. They want to be accepted again. The problem is that they have trouble accepting what they did and in turn look down on themselves. Then the BS hits them with an LB and they go back in thier shell.

I know they were wrong, but if we want to recover our M's, we have to forgive and forget. I am not saying that you have not done all of those things and that you probably have done all you could. Maybe its too much? I hope I made sense, it just seemed like the right response.
I hope the dam breaks soon.

Christ's Love,
Roman

Actually, there was a book I read... maybe Dobson's Tough Love? that discussed a process of telling the WS a story. The story would be an extremely detailed one of an affair that could have (but didn't) occur between the BS and a 'known' quantity to the WS like a best friend.

I remember using a form of it early on & H did get VERY uncomfortable. He couldn't handle the idea of me w/ someone else... also, he got to 'live' to some extent, through the feelings & thoughts that I had been living.

I also believe that along w/ that strategy was one of writing a letter about a 'beloved' car that was given up for a new 'racier' model.

If you do something like this Nikko, try to find the book where it discusses the strategy and make sure your H knows that it is fiction.... just make it VERY GOOD, really DETAILED fiction.

Cali

oh, and maybe you should discuss this w/ MC and have the strategy facilitated. :shrug:

<small>[ May 29, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

Hi Nikko,

I have been reading this board for years and NEVER post. Yours brought me out for a minute :-)

One of my biggest post D-Day ~if I could go back and do it all over things~ is similar to what you are talking about.

Instead of confronting him 2 years 9 months ago about his A , I would have admitted "my affair". I had the whole story all worked out. Let him suffer the pain I did for maybe a few weeks. I would have told him the truth after a while and I would have said, " I hope you feel relief, you now know your W is true to you. It was a bad dream. But I have to live still with the reality of what you have done forever."

But, maybe the outcome would have been different than it is right now. Maybe he would have killed me, or had a heart attack. Who knows! It took 9 months after D-day for the fog to lift. That was excrusiating. Today he is almost the H I always wanted. I guess I am almost the W he has always wanted. We don't expect each other to be perfect! lol.. I am happy, He is happy.

Things should be different for you. You have been going through this a bit longer than I. I wish I had some sage advise for you, but I don't know, maybe a plan B would be the thing. Your H seems that he just isn't getting it, or dosen't want to. Maybe some time without Nikko, would do the trick. It would also give you time to reflect on what you really need from him or at least give you a break from your relationship.. clear the cobwebs :-)

thank you for comming out for me--i really appreciate it. i knew someone else out there knew what i was feeling.

i cant post long her--i am in horrible shape...mini breakdown i guess. not sure how to feel---started crying and couldnt stop---been crying all day. havent ever really dont that---letting it go, who knows maybe ill feel better when it stops.

i'll post more when i get it together---thanks all for talking about this with me.....

Nikko....

blessings to you....

I'm just gonna ramble through this....

I am a girl that needs a plan...when there is something that I want changed or fixed...man I need a plan...

no plan, leaves me chaotic and in turmoil...
I can even pace if really distraught...
so I find comfort in a plan..

I even find comfort in formalizing a plan...
I think you need a plan...

and i thought about this post today...and here's my questions about what you think of this plan...

first when i read your post about YOUR marriage....
it sounds very lonely...

flat ou refuses to meet my needs---any of them--has no time or isnt interested. to hard --whatever

and well the truth is Nikko...you DON"T have to live your life this way....
three years...too long

you need a free Nikko from this cage plan....

what is the outcome of the free Nikko plan...well...lets just say right off the bat...you know what you got right now...
and it isn't working...

and you know you can't change him...
and you know you have changed you....
and perhaps it's time to just let go..
NOT necessarily of the marriage...
but definitely in your role in FIXING it...

Nikko if I WERE YOU....
this would be my plan...tell me what would happen if....

first I would tell you that I would give myself the gift of a timelimit of that I will try one last time for three-four-fillintheblank...number of months...and then I would be done with his CHOICE not to plug in to this marriage...
and if I were you I would give myself permission to begin to grasp that due to no lacking or fault of yours...he may not ever get it....


1. instead of the "words" of an affair....you do the actions of an affair...actions always speak louder than words...
you create the illusion of not necessarily an affair...but close to it...

You start going out....
YOU start being less accountable for your time...
YOU start humming sweet love songs under your breath when cooking dinner...with a lovely wistful look on your face..

YOU go to him upbeat and happy...
jar his memory or get his attention...
"hey honey guess what I heard today"...that old song..."fill in the blank".....
made me smile...
made me some pretty happy times.......
then flit right off his radar screen with no response expected....

find new music that you don't regularly listen to....put in on when he's around...tell him someone turned you on to this group...

buy some new underwear...without a word to him about it.....

enter his radar screen happy and upbeat...but somewhat distracted..."oh sorry did you say something dear...I was thinking of something funny someone said the other day...never mind it wouldn't sound funny to you..."

Tell him something you saw that took your breath away....
"dear..today I saw a North American Blue-bird...and in seeing the bird in flight...I know there is a God...then off his screen..

become distracted...
become BUSY BUSY BUSY...but no Lovebusting..do nothing he can lay a finger on ..
nothing that he can turn around on you
nothing that he pin point...

be little less accountable
be a little less unavailable..

meet his needs
but create some illusions...

go to a matinee play...
tell him you knew he wouldn't want to go..so you are going yourself..but you would love to go out to dinner later...or do SOMETHING with him if he's interested...

tell him you will call...then don't...

smacks of game playing
you betcha...
but it's the reality of his CHOICE not to treat you with respect...and it is the consequance of his action...

buy some schlocky romance novel...with a steamy cover...and act engrossed in it..
buy some type of novel that perhaps you wouldn't read...and tell him ALL about the book...and that "someone recomended it to you" so you thought you would try....

get a close friend...have them call when they know he is home...be too busy to answer..let him answer...and hang up...
leave the house when he is home act like you are late...
call him when you leave from a pay phone..hang up when he answers..if you have caller ID..do it from a payphone..

you my friend are greatly valued in this universe regardless of your husbands inability or choice not to treat you thusly...
and if you don't grasp on to that meaing soon...
it would be wrong...

Is this anti marriage building..perhaps...but when you have someone refusing to build with you...AND refusing to let your light shine...somethings gotta give...

shake it up...x number of months...
and see if he even notices...
if not then your answer may lay in his refusal to even see you....

blessings nikko
I know you are hurting...

ARK

Yes, I have thought about it. But the thought was fleeting and I know the thought was for me and not to tell WS about.
I would love to have someone hold me and want to be attentive.

But to do it or consider doing it for WH to gig him. NO. Absolutely not.
I have fantasized numerous things in a mad state what I would like to do regarding OW, but its all in frustration. I would never do it. But must admit last weekend I really got into some creative ugliness.
The place where she works has a very long road leading into it. I thought it would be appropriate to post signs, lots of them along the route so all the plant workers could read.
"her name with a Big Red A", or If your husband needs a good time, call xxx", or My husband pays for his sex with XXXX, or "for a good time call XXX" or "XXX is an Adultress"
Nothing like 200 workers at a plant buzzing about the latest gossip.

I realize that the OW made no promises to me, but she did play a part in the A. And dang it, can't do that sort of thing against WH as it would be major LB's. Ah, who am I kidding so would any attack on the OW as he would come to her pitiful defense.

Personally being mad has gotten me some strength as it took me 5 weeks to get mad. I've got some fight in me and it gives me much strength in dealing with his roller coaster stuff.

Hi ARK- LOVE your answer to Nikko- we are in the same boat but my h is MIA this week and acting like a 4 year old. what about me etc.... if he shows up at the party on Monday I'll be charming and strong. I post on RECOVERY if you want to see my saga this week- I don't usually have a saga...

Hi Whitefeather- did you really DO the sign thing? I am at the forefront of PUT UP A BILLBOARD for the infidels....... golden- love it. when the ow won't go away.......perhaps she needs to see that you noticed ....!

PEACE OUT