how do you shut off your mind so you can sleep?

anyway, since I can't sleep I'll ask the ? here that is part of what keeps me awake.

In the "can you love 2 people at the same time" thread I presented a ? that no one answered. I'll try again here.

To those of you who say you can love 2 people at the same time, my question is: How can you allow yourself to fall in love with the second one if you really do love the first?

Everyone is capable of loving all of their children, no matter how many you have. If you decided to have another child, but knew without a doubt that having another child would permanently and deeply hurt the children you already have, would you do it anyway?

I don't believe in love at first sight, so when a person falls in love they allow it to happen, in fact they mean for it to happen. I don't think it's possible to love 2 people at the same time. When you love someone you protect them from harm, you don't inflict harm.

Toomanyflies,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can you allow yourself to fall in love with the second one if you really do love the first?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People don’t allow themselves to fall in love - falling in love is NOT a choice. Yes, WSs allow the OP to fill their ENs, but they don’t choose the experience of falling in love itself. The problem is not with the actual experience of falling in love, but when people ACTING inappropriately on those feelings (for example when a WS having an A). Please read the response I've send to the other thread you are referring too - it will give you more insight.

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

I did read it Suzet, and I don't buy it.

I think I should read the book "Women who Love Too Much" because for me love is real it's unselfish, protective and REAL! It can't be transfered to a friend, co-worker, neighbor, whatever who talks to me or smiles at me. (or, in my WH's case, a huge butt with a head attached that smiled at him and talked to him)

I fell in love with my H 25 years ago. I have never said the words "I love you" to another man since (except family of course) I take love very seriously. I take family very seriously.

Those who think they can love 2 people romantically at the same time really only love themselves. Love to some is getting your needs met. Generally the "need" is an ego boost. While I'm sure that there are terrible marriages out there where one person is getting no needs met, I think that cheaters use the flimsiest excuses for what they do. NO ONE can meet the needs of another person 100% of the time, especially when they don't always know what they are.

My #1 need is feeling loved, I don't really feel that now, it was too easy for him to give that away to a stranger. #2 is total honesty, I definitely don't get that! But I'm not gonna go scr*w some other man because of it.

Toomanyflies,

Just to explain my opinion from my own experience:

When I first became friends with OM, I NEVER intended or want to “fall” in love with him… I love my H very much, but I also though at the time (before my EA) that it is not possible at all to fall in love with someone else if you truly love your spouse. Well, I have learned a VERY big lesson… Through regular conversation on e-mail I started to develop romantic feelings for OM after a period of more than 2 years… (Conversation is one of my biggest ENs and today I realize that regular conversation with OM deposited large amounts of “love units” in my “love bank” and eventually unwittingly triggered romantic love for him). When I first started to develop these romantic feelings, I felt SO confused and SO guilty... I didn’t understand how it’s possible because I love my H, but then I started to tell myself if I have this feelings for OM then I don’t truly love my H. How big a mistake I’ve made by thinking that way! Today I know I never stopped loving my H, despite of the fact that I developed romantic feelings for OM. If you are correct and it’s true that you can’t fall in love with someone else if you love your spouse, then the only conclusion is that I don’t love my H…which is NOT true! I love my H and have always loved him, in spite of some residual feelings I still have for OM.

People get caught up in the word love...

which is nebulous..
ask 100 people what the definition of love is...get a 100 different answers...

love the word is nothing without the actions that are loving...
and as others pointed out you can't be loving in actions if it is destructive to one, when given to another....

we can love anyone when we are capable to fully in action express that love...hence the ability to children..as our actions of nurturing are infinite...

nurturing is an action of love...

it is impossible just based on logistics to claim to love your spouse and love an OP...
the actions of love are way to compromised to make it a reality...

to the OP the WS says the words I love you...
but the actions say....
I can only express that in action between the hours of 9-5....do not call my house or cell..
and blah blah blah...
the logistics of an affair remove the actions of love....and therefor the word love has lost its defintion....

People don’t allow themselves to fall in love - falling in love is NOT a choice.

Ofcourse falling in love is a choice...
NOBODY sees a person for the first time and feels and acts the actions of love instantly....

love is accomplished through the actions that lead to the feeling...

they can be the smallest of small actions but they are building blocks of love...and they are definitely a choice...

many WS can't, don't, refuse to see/admit this...they cling to being a victim
It just happened..
we didn't mean for it to happen...

but if you were to go back to the initial beginings of an affair..you can clearly see the actions and choice that lead to love...

i chose to speak to this person
I chose to smile at this person
I chose to charm this person
I chose to let this person charm me
I chose to divulge more and more personal information to this person
I chose to seek this person out more and more
I chose to give this person more access to me and my life.
I chose to build verbal intimacy with this person
I chose to build physical intimacy with this person

When you ALLOW these small acts to occur...these are the EXACT actions of love..and definitly a choice...because at any time you could choose not do these acts...and therefor not be in an affair...

there is no magical cosmic force
there is no soul mate connection....

there is no lightning bolt of instant love...

love is in the acts..

WS spouses who even use the word love..are so far removed from loves true meaning it is not even funny....
If I were a BS I would be more concerned with a WS that claimed to love me and love an OP...because they are without a doubt incapable at that period in their lives even having a clue as to what love is...
for it is our actions that define who we are...

it is nonsensical babble...and people who understand their own self worth and importance in this universe...have no interest in that type of love at all.....


now happiness is a warm gun...(so sayeth the Beatles....)

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>i chose to speak to this person
I chose to smile at this person
I chose to charm this person
I chose to let this person charm me
I chose to divulge more and more personal information to this person
I chose to seek this person out more and more
I chose to give this person more access to me and my life.
I chose to build verbal intimacy with this person
I chose to build physical intimacy with this person</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and I chose NOT to run like hell the first instant I began deceiving my spouse.

Toomanyflies,

I didn’t see you have already responded to my first reply.

I just want you to know that although I’m a FWW who had a friendship that became inappropriate and beginning of EA, I also take love and family matters very seriously… Me too have never said the words “I love you” to any other man since I’ve got married. I unwittingly develop romantic feelings or love towards OM but I never acted on those feelings in any way (physically or verbally) BECAUSE I love my H. You can’t say that people who romantically love 2 people at the same time only love themselves. Before my EA I was VERY judgmental towards people who became involved in situations like this too, but I have learned my lesson well and today I know better… I have learned that As can even happen in very happy marriages if not cautious and careful. A marriage can stray en be vulnerable to an affair also because of adverse reasons and circumstances other than problems/issues within M. All people have some personal problems/issues and baggage they bring into the M and everyone must be aware of their own weaknesses & vulnerabilities. The BIGGEST lesson I have learned is that A’s can happen to ANYONE and that even good, religious people with high morals and strong conscience can get involved in an A or develop romantic feelings for someone else if not cautious and careful... Sometimes the so-called ‘good’ people are more vulnerable to an affair than anyone else because they think they will never get tempted and are not aware of their own human weaknesses. The latter was my problem. I thought something like this would NEVER happen to me.

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

WAT!!!

shouldn't you be out in the Southern Cross....sailing, star gazing, fishen drinking rum ya limey??

WHO drydocked you???

ark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

great post. I am of the same mindset. It is SO easy for some WS to just chaulk up the A as "fate", "uncontrollable love" or something that "just happened".

It is in the accumulation of those tiny acts that we chose to do, that puts people in affair situations. IMHO, it is similar to drugs. If you don't want to engage in drug activities you don't go hang out a drug dealer's house no matter how nice they are. If you don't want to have an affair you don't put yourself in a situation where more "feelings", whatever we define them as, can develop and prosper. If you are attracted to someone and you're married and they ask you to lunch--you have the choice to say no thank you.

And you do it for all sorts of reasons...not just the love for your spouse. You decide not to engage in activities that can lead to an affair because you have taken vows, you know it would hurt people, children, family, God.

Even if you took the spouse out of the equation, I believe you can still pretty much chose who you have a relationship with. Just my opinion.

Edited to add: Not trying to be judgemental in any way--just my experience. As far as being in "love". I think people can LOVE a plethora of traits in many people. Love is endless! But married love should be the sacred type IMO.

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: nine line bind ]</small>

TooManyLies - I don't know your story so don't know how to apply some of my answer to you.

Sleep problem? I went to IC, which recommended I go see a doc and get evaluated for anti-anxiety medication.
I was sleeping 2.5 - 5 hours a nite. First nite with med I slept full nite, only stirred once.
I don't take the medication throughout day, just for nite and just for sleeping. Mind you I am taking anti depressant to aid in my sleeping.
A good nites sleep will do you wonders.

Love and 2 people? This is one of those questions you are going to get a huge variety of answers. So I'll tell you my thoughts and "maybe" you will get something out of it.

My first H loved women and so our marriage ended when I figured it out. I made no effort to save the marriage, he broke my trust and that was that.

I loved the man, he just hurt me as in my mind another woman was the ultimate bad thing. I still loved him when we divorced. He was a good man all around except for that one fault.
Had I been able to convince myself that this was fixable I would have stayed and have no doubts we would have had a good marriage. He was a good and loving man otherwise.

I met my now H not to long after my divorce. I loved him and still loved my ex-H.
I never have lied about my feelings for my ex. My now H knew how I felt.
Mind you the only thing that I didn't like about my ex-H was his infidelity.

So in my mind it is possible to love two people. It has to be the "needs".

In the case of our H's having A's. I absolutely buy into the "need" theory.

If you want to save your marriage you need to look at yourself and see how your marriage got to where it is. It takes two.
It doesn't excuse the A. But seriously something was lacking in your H for him to allow himself to have his need(s) met with someone else.

Its a great question,can a person love two people. Yeah, I think it is possible.
Some cannot phathom it and so they have to discount that he only loves one.

In fact, I wish I were in your shoes regarding that. My H has told me he stopped loving me.
Now immediately I knew that wasn't true as his actions never changed and he continues to meet some of my needs. But I imagine he had to say that to justify what he has done. He can't love me and do what he has done.

Yeah, I would love that he could recognize that he loves two people. And I think I was so adament in telling that was hogwash that he has changed his words from "love" to having "feelings" for each of us.
Which goes in line with another poster said about "love" it is defined in different ways.

Highly recommend you look deeper into the relationship. Find out what was missing with you and with him. What led to the A? What was missing.

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 06:57 AM: Message edited by: whitefeather ]</small>

Ark,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i chose to speak to this person
I chose to smile at this person
I chose to charm this person
I chose to let this person charm me
I chose to divulge more and more personal information to this person
I chose to seek this person out more and more
I chose to give this person more access to me and my life.
I chose to build verbal intimacy with this person
I chose to build physical intimacy with this person</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can also choose to speak to a person, smile at a person, divulge more and more personal information to a person, etc. (except physical intimacy of course) without necessarily fall in love with the person as well. Those are the things that not only happen in As, but also builds friendships between people (except for the physical intimacy of course). That’s why I say people choose those small actions, but they don’t choose falling in love with the person in the end.

Its a great question,can a person love two people. Yeah, I think it is possible. Some cannot phathom it and so they have to discount that he only loves one.

I don't think it is discounted because one cannot fathom it...
I think it is discounted because the actions are not loving...

because a person the speaks the words love...yet does not act lovingly..
they themselves do not understand love...
what they offer is shallow reflections
empty of action

ark

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

I've decided to resend my reponse on another thread to this thread:

I 100 % agree that “real/true” love is a choice because “real” love in the biblical sense of the word is the agape/Godly love as described in Corinthians 13 and involves ACTION. But we CAN’T choose to “fall in love” (romantic love) because “falling in love” is a feeling and NOT a choice. Therefore we can’t help “falling in love” with someone outside marriage but we can choose NOT to act on those feelings because we decide (choice) to apply “real/true” agape love in our M and towards our S and act in all parties involved best interest. Out of “real” love (choice) we can also decide NOT to act on our romantic feelings towards an OP because we know it will damage his/her M too etc. Therefore, “real/true” love can choose how we act, although we can’t choose the experience of “falling in love” itself. However, the experience of “falling in love” can happen because of the choice to let another person fill our EN’s. For instance, we can choose to let a person fill our EN for conversation, but we can’t choose to “fall in love” if this need is continually met by the person. We can try to avoid “falling in love” by stopping the person from filling our ENs, but on the other hand, what about the phenomena of “love at first sight” which is also an experience of romantic love?? If it was so easy to choose to “fall” in love with people, then so many FWS’s on these boards would not struggle to get through withdrawal and struggle to get rid of those feelings for the OP. I think if all FWS on these boards would have a choice, we would prefer NOT having residual feelings at all for the OP but just to “decide” those feelings away! As Dr Harley have said: The emotional reactions we have toward people, whether its attraction or repulsion, is not a matter of choice. Love Bank balances cause them. Try "choosing" to be attracted to those you associate with some of your worst experiences ? it's almost impossible. Or try to feel repulsed by those associated with your best feelings. You do not decide whom you will like or dislike ? it's their association with your feelings, whether they have made Love Bank deposits or withdrawals, that determines your emotional reactions to them.

Here is a quote from the book “The Road less traveled” to better explain what I’ve said above about "real/true" love and "falling in love":

Of all the misconceptions about love the most powerful and pervasive is the belief that ‘falling in love’ is love or at least one of the manifestations of love. It is a potent misconception, because falling in love is subjectively experienced in a very powerful fashion as an experience of love. When a person falls in love what he or she certainly feels is ‘I love him/her’. But two problems are immediately apparent. The first is that the experience of falling in love is specifically a sex-linked erotic experience. The second problem is that the experience of falling in love is invariably temporary. No matter whom we fall in love with, we sooner or later fall out of love if the relationship continues long enough. By stating that it is when a couple falls out of love they may begin to really love I am also implying that real love does not have its roots in a feeling of love. Real love often occurs in a context in which the feeling of love is lacking, when we act lovingly despite the fact that we don’t feel loving.

Falling in love is not an act of will. It is not a conscious choice. Not matter how open to or eager for it we may be, the experience may still elude us. Contrarily, the experience may capture us at times when we are definitely not seeking it, when it is inconvenient and undesirable. We are as likely to fall in love with someone with whom we are obviously ill matched as with someone more suitable. Indeed, we may not even like or admire the object of our passion, yet, try as we might, we may not be able to fall in love with a person whom we deeply respect and with whom a deep relationship would be in all ways desirable. We can choose how to respond to the experience of falling of love, but we cannot choose the experience itself. Falling in love is effortless. Lazy and undisciplined individuals are as likely to fall in love as energetic and dedicated ones.

Real love is an action, an activity. This leads to the final major misconception of love which needs to be addressed. Love is not a feeling. Many, many people possessing a feeling of love and even acting in response to that feeling act in all manner of unloved and destructive ways. Genuine love is volitional rather than emotional. The person who truly love does so because of a decision to love. This person has made a commitment to be loving whether or not the loving feeling is present. If it is, so much the better; but if it isn’t, the commitment to love, the will to love, still stands and is still exercised.

Conversely, it is not only possible but necessary for a loving person to avoid acting on feelings of love. I may meet a woman who strongly attracts me, whom I feel like loving, but because it would be destructive to my marriage to have an affair at that time, I will say vocally or in the silence of my heart, ‘I feel like loving you, but I am not going to’. My feelings of love may be unbounded, but my capacity to be loving is limited. I therefore must choose the person on whom to focus my capacity to love, toward whom to direct my will to love. True love is not a feeling by which we are overwhelmed. It is a committed, thoughtful decision.

The common tendency to confuse love with feelings of love allows people all manner of self-deception. It is clear that there may be a self-serving quality in this tendency to confuse love with the feeling of love; it is easy and not at all unpleasant to find evidence of love in one’s feelings. It may be difficult and painful to search for evidence of love in one’s actions. But because true love is an act of will that often transcends ephemeral feelings of love or cathexis, it is correct to say, ‘Love is as love does’.

the ACTIONS of building an intimate relationship..
the actions that speak of love that should be reserved to their spouse soley...

are not the same as interactions in a friendship...
people in an affair without a doubt cross lines that should exist in a marriage...that they do not cross in a friendship....

even being too emotionally intimate with a friend can be a betrayal to a spouse...

people choose their behavior...
people choose to entertain, pursue, and build their feelings...
the actions are what make it possible....

people do not JUST fall in love...they create the environment that nurtures the feelings...the environment is their choice....

ark

Arc I can see your point. Could very well be that it is recognized that the action is not loving and so they believe that they can't love the spouse.
I still find it to be hogwash to say that a person falls out of love, so they can love another. Not saying it isn't possible, but I think in general most WS love their BS's.

wow, what great responses.

"Those are the things that not only happen in As, but also builds friendships between people (except for the physical intimacy of course). That’s why I say people choose those small actions, but they don’t choose falling in love with the person in the end."

So true. I can say for me though, the things that build friendships between a man and a woman are very peripheral. (I'm struggling to verbalize here.) And again, this is just me, I can still at any point recognize those steps that are creating an environment that is no longer appropriate. That happens prior to building a relationship. I very quickly become uncomfortable with any tiny increment that could even possibly be construed as a building block of love. (i.e personal conversations, etc.)

Then again, I think I'm very naive sometimes. Perhaps, those building blocks can happen quicker in some than others?

Ark,

I agree with everything you said, but again the fact remains that although people choose to create the environment that nurtures the feelings, they don’t choose falling in love itself. For instance, if I let a person fill a big emotional need that can also be filled by other people than only the spouse (like conversation etc.), I choose to let the person fill that need, but I don’t choose romantic love be triggered by this. I've chosen to speak to OM, build a friendship with him, e-mail him, give some personal info about myself, verbally support him etc., but I definitely didn’t choose falling in love with him. I never want it or intended it to happen! However, I have learned very big lessons about opposite sex-frienships and where to keep the boundaries!

<small>[ May 31, 2004, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

But we CAN’T choose to “fall in love” (romantic love) because “falling in love” is a feeling and NOT a choice. Therefore we can’t help “falling in love” with someone outside marriage

If that was true...then logically..
people would be FALLING in love all over the place all the time...

all that would be needed was to see someone and instantly feel in love....

and it does not happen that way...

it happens that people make choices and act in a way that nurtures and promotes love...

but again the fact remains that although people choose to create the environment that nurtures the feelings, they don’t choose falling in love itself.

It is the creation of the environment itself...
that leads the person to the feeling of love..

romantic love is always triggered by actions...
not by just seeing a person...
and those actions remain the choice...

I do not buy victim status
I do not buy it just happened...
I do not but it was out of "our' control

I buy that it was the acts that led to the feeling..not the feeling leading to the acts...

ark

Nine line bind,

I was raised in an environment where I’ve learned it is okay to have close opposite sex friendships while married. I was raised with my fathers example. He is still closely involved with this woman “friend” for more than 20 years now. After I’ve learned about EAs I’ve realized that my father is actually involve in one (EA) for more than 20 years now. I’ve tried to talk to my father about this so many times, but he is in TOTAL denial about this. However, if it wasn’t for my own inappropriate friendship with OM I wouldn’t be able to recognize the inappropriateness of my father’s friendship (EA) with this woman. Before my experience, I was very naive as well, but I’m SO afraid of opposite sex friendships now that I won’t even allow myself to have a close personal conversation with someone of the opposite sex excepts if my H is present and it is a friend or married couple of both me and my H.

Sorry toomanyflies, I don’t mean to highjack! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This loving 2 people at the same time question came up at the beginning of my H's EA with his OW. I remember one night he showed me a Polymory website, indicating he felt romantic love for 2: me, and my "best friend" at the time.

Crushed me. I agree with ark's earlier statement regarding loving 2 people - not a good place to be. Very painful, as my H was SOOO confused, he didn't know anything, couldn't answer any of my questions.

You see, loving 2 is a lifestyle choice, IMHO. It is like Swinging, or 3-somes. It is something that both individuals in the M need to be in agreement on. Because without that agreement, it is cheating. I told my H that we hadn't made any agreements like that, that is a lifestyle choice, and it was not for me. If he continued to pursue that, he could do it alone, because I was out.

Immediately, H backed off. Then he loved me, then he loved her, then me, then her. In H's confusion, and admittedly my anger, H came to believe that he couldn't love 2, so he must love her. H finally realized he loved her, after their PA began.

The timing here is interesting because . . . H betrayed me more than just with an inappropriate friendship. H took his betrayal of me 100%. Something he was convinced BEFORE the A he was incapable of doing. H believed he was not the type to do that - he is a Boy Scout, protector, best friend, has a true heart. Anyone who has these traits cannot cheat, he convinced himself.

So, in order to do these horrible things to me and himself, he must truly LOVE her. It must be meant to be. Our history together was rewritten to accomodate this fantasy. His ethics were rewritten to accomodate this. That boy put a lot of energy into reshaping his world around this ONE concept - that he must love her to have done the things he had done.

Once H stopped putting energy into justification of his actions, his "feelings" for her disappeared. They were a lie, as most "feelings" are.

How did this happen? Were they just friends, and they just stumbled into love? Just "fall" in love? Well, how scary is that???? If that is the case, whose to say he isn't going to just trip and fall into love with the attractive lady he works with? He talks to her each day. They tell each other jokes and laugh together. Hm. Would I be able to take him back and sleep at night if I believed that. Um, no.

So, what we have discovered through MC and talking endlessly with each other is that my H did not put up any boundaries with this friendship, because he believed that he was incapable of having an A. By the time he realized what was happening, he was all foggy, full of feelings, confused and scared, and making crazy whacked-out decisions. Now that H is aware he is capable (which I think we all are, if personal boundaries are not in place) of an A, he is aware that his relationships with female friends will look different than those with same-sex friends.

H is using his A experience for prevention of it happening again. That is a huge comfort for me. And something we talk about a lot.

Just my 2 cents on "falling" in love and loving 2.

SS

ps, I hope you are getting better sleep. When H left I got myself an electric blanket (he left Newe Year's Eve) and that put me right to sleep! Suzet is a good responder when you cannot sleep, as I believe she is in South Africa? She sent me many prayers at 3 am on these boards. Thank you, girlfriend! Thoughts and prayers to you.