Hello,

It's been awhile...I survived the month of May which carries with it far too many memories. I internalize the sadness but hate the way the simple turn of the calendar page has made me feel better. We "celebrated" 13 years of marriage on May 11th. We went to Portugal for our honeymoon, Greece after five...and it was supposed to have been Italy after 10. Instead, it was an affair after 10...despite the birth of our beautiful child after three miscarriages.

I needed to restate this although most of you know my story. It feels better to write it and see it in print.

So Ark...he comes over to mow, to clean up the pond, buys flowers...the pond is trickling for the first time in three years...WHY, WHY, WHY?

Okay, then he says, that since he's not good at typing, can I type an email with the conditions that we can take to a mediator. Sure, no problem.

What happened to last year's lawyer?

I haven't sent any such email. Should I? He's reminded me once but why should I???

He's come on to me several times in recent weeks...

I really still do believe he misses our life...crazy me.

I'm missing something in this mess and I have to be reminded of what it is...

Love to all of you and I am truly sorry for the pain everyone on this board writes of...however, I am smarter and stronger (in some ways) because of it.

Terri,
I think Ark asked you awhile back, if you would still like to reconcile why you don't broach the subject?

I know you didn't ask me, but, what do you do when he comes on to you? Are you against "going for it"?

If I had to guess, between his talking about a mediator--which you have to initiate? And coming onto you, he might be wondering what your detachment is. A little push here, a little push there to see what Terri is thinking. Because as far as I know it has been a long time since you've told him...and he may no longer know.

Lor, I'm thinking of you. I hope you are well. I'm here to listen if you need it.

I think he knows that I would want to reconcile although yes, I haven't told him in a very long time (possibly a year).

Suddenly, he's planning to build a treehouse for D in the backyard. I've wanted this for years...
however, I believe he's still in the same place re:his mind and his heart which means it's not with me. I honestly believe he doesn't want to reconcile.

But if he did, shouldn't it be him that initiates it after all this time?

He's got to want it bad enough and if he doesn't, then we don't want him. Or am I totally off base?

Ter...

I honestly don't know what to say to you that hasn't already been said to you...especially by me....

I've said it to you with kid-gloves on
I've said it meanly
I've said it with sarcasm
and I've said it with humor ...

and still until you

change yourself...
nothing he says, does,doesn't say, doesn't do matters...

until YOU DECIDE that the hell of limbo is greater than ALL the other paths that lay open to you....

nothing externally matters..

so many road lay in front of you...yet you don't peek down any....
you dig your feet in the dirt and stay there...
you two are like the two dr suess caracters the north going zax and the South going zax.

"NEVER BUDGE! That's my rule. NEVER BUDGE IN THE LEAST! NOT AN INCH TO THE WEST NOT AN INCH TO THE EAST!
I'll stay here, not budging! I can and I will
If it makes you and me and the whole world stand still!"

WELL...
OF course the whole world didn't stand still. The world grew......


you need to claim what it is you want.....
I can tell you again and again as I have a thousand times before what I want for you...
and you may be surprized that it's a small tiny thing...
and that YOU are that one makes it in to a huge thing...

but until you decide for yourself....
and until you make a move....

limbo it is...

year after year....

scary though...
cause daughter is getting older...and time is fleeting ...
and you two haven't figured out to communicate a thing....

you have nothing to lose choosing a path...
you only stand to lose more staying where you are..
pick a path ...any path..
try it on..
get comfortable with trying...
and then pick a different path..
nothing is written in stone
nothing says you can't change

learn to change terr...and all these paths will open up to you..
you've had lots of changes forced upon you..
being a single mom
being sole care taker
being alone without a partner...
all forced...
and you have risen to the occasion each time...

but when are you going to claim some changes for you that are of your choice

ARK

Ark, thanks for reminding me what is really important. My story is different than Terri's but I finally have the courage to move on from my WS who is still rolling in the place of FOG and SELFISHLAND.

It is time for each of us to step up to the plate and take a swing for a new LIFE.

Terri, I do not know your whole story but I sympathize with you....but you need to make a decision, and move on...because Life is slipping by each of us everyday.

Haven't I changed?

No, I haven't pursued legal separation or divorce because that isn't what I want...that's his path follow and his choices to make real.

However, I have

continued to love and respect his family
raised our daughter in our house trying to forge a life for her that is somewhat normal...trying to give her the experiences despite her father's departure
gotten up every day and continued to earn a living for myself and my daughter
maintained social contact with our friends

I haven't

forced him to assume visitation at his apartment
disallowed him from our home
forced him to pursue any path
I guess I've allowed him to live in limbo

So, what it is it, Ark that I need to do further...and I'm asking you because I need clarity. I know I do and if you have to...slam me over the head with it...

I just need help with some direction.

Thanks Ark...as always.

Nature, I don't know your story but I'm glad that you're happy with where you're at...

I wish I could get to that state.

OH Terr...you know the answers already...

continued to love and respect his family
raised our daughter in our house trying to forge a life for her that is somewhat normal...trying to give her the experiences despite her father's departure
gotten up every day and continued to earn a living for myself and my daughter
maintained social contact with our friends


all of those were forced upon you...
and if we use some of your logic...then he gets brownie points cause he has always been nice to your mom...while screwing you over.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


forced him to assume visitation at his apartment
because you are afraid to...afraid that YOUR actions will be the end of this marriage...while it is HIS actions that started down that path...

disallowed him from our home
right cause then again it might be your "fault" if he reacted....forget his own actions...

he is the most amazing cake eater...cause he's typically been a mean one...

Terr...
you haven't spoken up to him about...

1. visitation
2. every other weekend
3. time off for you
4. your need for outside friends insterests...
5. anything......

anything that smacks of a shadow of the reality of HIS choices you have place on your back to protect him from....

and poster after poster here has told you that if he was sure of the OW..if he was SURE he wanted her...and divorce he would have done so...and be done with you...

instead there is your limbo....

No, I haven't pursued legal separation or divorce because that isn't what I want...

then say this is this is what i want..
THIS is the HILL THAT I AM WILLING TO DIE ON ...
make any choice ter...any choice...pick a path and a plan...and people will support you..

you will never ever know unless you try...

terr you are the soon to become the shrine of perpetual sameold-sameold..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
honestly people are going to start lighting candles and chanting in your front yard...
get a neon sign..
the perpertual shrine of same old...and turn it on...

all your changes...forced upon you..
when you going to make a change to move things in the direction that you want things to go..

and terr...like him...your indecisions become your decisions....God you two are PERFECT for eachother... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> you should be together...!!!

ARK

ps are his diplomas, degrees and awards still on YOUR wall...in the den...
tell me why.....

Sorry Ark if I misquoted you. I just can't resist Terri's threads.

Terri,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I honestly believe he doesn't want to reconcile. But if he did, shouldn't it be him that initiates it after all this time?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think his coming on to you is? Just sex? Reconciliations have started with sex, I'm pretty sure of it. I'm also pretty sure that sometimes it means nothing about the relationship, it's just a moment.

Obviously, if you don't want to and don't feel it is right for you, it would not be the right choice.

Like yours, my bad times story dragged on for years, and there are areas I'm pretty gingerly about my advice. I like to pick out the things I'm sure were good & positive, or conversely advise against the things I did that were negative, even horrible.

That said, I don't know if it was positive or negative, but I threw myself at my H fairly frequently up to the point where he left the last time and I served him D papers. Sometimes, I said to myself he was my H, if anyone should be having sex with him, it should be me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Since in a way I felt I was using him, I didn't feel badly about it.

But, I don't know, it was an odd time for me and I'm just relating this, not urging you.

Admittedly, I tried everything from MB to 3 different counselors to divorce busting to tough love to boundaries to detachment to finally serving the D papers myself and moving on with my life. Almost the opposite of limbo, too much action. H might have been in limbo, but I was a doer/pusher/shaker.

But then, my H wasn't mean in a threatening or angry way, but in his choices.

(Digressing for a moment, jeez I miss him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

I think after all this time, in your heart you are still Terrified that it will be something you do that ends your marriage. And that simply isn't true. Your H could look for a way to blame you, but he would be wrong in putting the blame on you.

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

Originally posted by Terrified:
"I guess I've allowed him to live in limbo"

I tried to keep my big mouth shut... but.... here goes...

~~~~~~~~~

Terri , YOU have chosen to live YOUR LIFE in limbo!

You say you've "allowed" WH to live in limbo.... I say NOT SO!

Limbo is YOUR choice for yourself.

How do I know? .... Because you're still there!

Pep

Hey everyone,

Good food for thought...feeling a little clearer. As always, thank-you.

Here are my comments:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">because you are afraid to...afraid that YOUR actions will be the end of this marriage...while it is HIS actions that started down that path... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEs, I accept this. You're right. I am afraid of the reality of his actions. I'm afraid to participate in the reality because I feel in conflict. It's almost as if I'm doing something I am 100% against in principle...it does not feel naturally right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Terr...
you haven't spoken up to him about...

1. visitation
2. every other weekend
3. time off for you
4. your need for outside friends insterests...
5. anything......
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. I haven't spoken to him about any of this. Should I? Should I write an email to him (he'd be thrilled to get it, I'm sure!) that lists all of these things so that it's in writing per his request? Or do I just sit down with him (which we've tried recently with little success because it leads into a different direction). He's looking for a reaction from me everytime he says something..."are you sure you're ok about this"...he says...don't worry, D will be with you most of the time, he says.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then say this is this is what i want..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haven't I done that? Haven't I made it clear what I want?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> terr you are the soon to become the shrine of perpetual sameold-sameold..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to become this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when you going to make a change to move things in the direction that you want things to go.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I've missed the boat on doing this since I really believed I was changing and moving forward in ways...

His degrees on the wall...gone. Awards and pictures...stil there.

Lor, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you think his coming on to you is? Just sex? Reconciliations have started with sex, I'm pretty sure of it. I'm also pretty sure that sometimes it means nothing about the relationship, it's just a moment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what it's all about...familiar yet strange all at the same time. Really intense. Like I said earlier, the pond is trickling for the first time in three years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think after all this time, in your heart you are still Terrified that it will be something you do that ends your marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're absolutely correct. I do and I know that he does and always will blame me for most of it.

Pepper, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Limbo is YOUR choice for yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. I do agree...it's that issue that I have with taking the necessary steps to get out of limbo and into a position of control.

Thanks to all of you...I appreciate it.

Just reading your thread....you and I share the same wedding anniversary (and I found out about my WH's A on May 6....5 days before we "celebrated" our anniversary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

I don't know your story, but I have received similar advice to what has been written here....and it's so hard to change....and so miserable to be in limbo.

I don't have any words of advice--I'm trying to go down that path myself...good luck!

Terri?
His coming on to you and the pond trickling are related? Wha--?

I wasn't so interested in the pond details before... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Terr..

why do you have to move and speak in such extremes...

why is everything so extreme....??

I am afraid of the reality of his actions. I'm afraid to participate in the reality because I feel in conflict.

HOW is saying can you watch daughter every wed night for me...i have plans....a reality beyond what is already in place...EXCEPT instead of "inconveniancing" you it might crimp HIS style....NOT to say your daughter is an inconveniance....

He's looking for a reaction from me everytime he says something..."are you sure you're ok about this"...he says...don't worry, D will be with you most of the time, he says.

do you tell him you are not OK with it...
what do YOU say...

Haven't I done that? Haven't I made it clear what I want?

clear as mud terr...

I have told you post after post to rattle HIS cage ....

shake things up a little...

what plan are you in...I forget...

ARK

Ark, thanks for sticking "me" out here...you obviously can tell, it is much needed but appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HOW is saying can you watch daughter every wed night for me...i have plans....a reality beyond what is already in place </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not but I feel guilty as a mother...working full time and saying I need my time so here...it's your turn. I mean, he's not going to take her to his apt which means he's at the house and again, I guess I have to reinforce that he can't?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do you tell him you are not OK with it... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I PRETEND I'm fine with it. What else am I supposed to do? Cry, scream, tell him he's cracked, he's lost it, etc? No, I SUPPRESS but the last time, as he was writing things down on a notepad in OUR kitchen sitting down eating MY pizza...I couldn't stop the tears as he was staring at me for my reaction. So he said, "What's wrong?" So, I said...it's painful to know what's ahead. It's our marriage. It's our daughter and I'm still the same emotional person you married." That was all. His response? "Don't worry. I will always be here for you and D. I'll do everything for you." At that moment, I really believed that he had lost it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what plan are you in...I forget...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do I.

But I honestly do not believe he'd care if I started going golfing every Wednesday or to the gym every Wednesday...

Woudn't rattle him at all...

What if you decided to be a doctor? What would you need to do? Start making a list of things that you needed to do, right? Things like obtain your undergrad degree, apply for med school, attend med school, etc etc.

So if you've decided you want to be married, then what is your plan to make it so?

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about your plan. If your mom thinks its wrong, or your friends feel sorry for you. Its about what YOU want for YOU.

So if you love this man, and you love the life you had together...then why would you "go along" with him destroying it? And you definitely should not PARTICIPATE in destroying it. No lists for mediators, no helping him divide up the assets. If he wants a divorce, let him go get one.

As for you...MAKE A FREAKING PLAN AND STICK TO IT.

Plan A your husband When he brings up a mediator, tell him no thanks you don't want one, you want to stay married.

Have all the sex you want with him! Why wouldn't you? It keeps him bonded to you. (also curious about that pond reference...hmmmm)

Go full out in Plan A. Get your husband back.
Stop doing what you think everyone wants you to do, and start doing what YOU want to do. Being a good girl doesn't apply when you are an adult.

<small>[ June 04, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Lexxxy ]</small>

Does he ever, at the very least, bring his OWN pizza for YOU to eat?

Hey everyone,

Thank-you...

Was out at my D's soccer game last night (I'm the coach for the second year) WITH my H...no, it wasn't planned that way but he stepped in for "his wife" (his reference) when I was away on business several weeks ago...had to step in again when I was throwing a baby shower for someone...from nothing to coaching and the pond...

Lor, you make me smile...the trickling of the pond has now become symbolic...I just wonder why now?

Why the reference to "my wife" to other parents on the soccer field?

In any case, Lex (good to hear from you...I'm sorry I haven't contacted you for reasons I've expressed above) I guess I am attempting a Plan A of sorts that has now become more natural. I'm not trying hard to please him...just trying hard to live better...and happier.

Take care and love to all