I went to our family doctor today and had a very insightful conversation with him. He has been our doctor for 15 yrs. He told me that he would have always thought that I was the one that resisted any type of counseling but he now realized how wrong he has been. He told me he feels like he has to "walk on eggs" with wife (how apropos is that). He told me W is always interested in assigning blame to things that happen. Never can see it just happens but rather that it has to be someones fault. He speculated that she has a bad relationship with her mom which I confirmed. When I told him I had a very good relationship with my mother he told me wife resents that still (mom is dead 12yrs). He said she can still hold onto slights that happened many years ago and won't let them go.

Why I say this is self serving is because I am walking away from this with the opinion that I am a good guy. This was validation. The problems are with her. This isn't about the A but her always subtley suggesting that she could have done better. The second part of this is my realization that W is doing her best. These are the tools she has. Her childhood was lousy and she just seems to wait for people to dissappoint her. So I haven't and won't change my position on no contact (at least for me), I am starting to realize she does love me in her way. I was sagging a bit lately and this was helpful.

WOE,
I really don't know your story, but I have noticed you have been a great encouragement to others here. I just want to encourage you to keep hanging in there and making you own changes. Avoid thinking that all the problems are hers. I know I thought that way too, but it really depends on how much we want to save the M and accepting the WS just the way they are(not accepting the A). You know you can't change her, but you can influence her. I am sure ther is love for you in her, its just buried beneath all the pain she harbors. You are a good guy and she will see that. She needs a safe place to land and you can provide that place. You're only 2 months past dday and it will get better. You know that contact will hold back any recovery, so until that ends, keep reaching out yo her. At some point you will see how deeply she is hurt by this circumstance. Keep hanging in there, you have a ways to go, but the pain is worth the reward.

Christ's Love,
Roman121

Roman, thank you for the kind words and encouragement. You also bring a lot of encouragement and joy to this difficult place. But I want to clarify one thing; I am 2+ yrs past my second D-Day and 3+ past my first. I have been here lurking for the first 2 years and been a member for the last year. I lost my best friend to the first PA and he had the decency to immediately end contact and tell me he is working on his marriage. I have no ill will for this man. But OM #2 has been with 10 married woman so this guy is a bit of a predator for sure. My Wife is in a weekly pool league and while the ONS happened in 2/02 she refuses to stop calling this man or end contact. I am just supposed to know in my heart that the PA is over and now we're all just great friends. This has been like chinese water torture for me and that's why I say that "I" am ending contact. I can't control wife as you have said but I have to stop enabling it. I have kept my mouth shut about the PA to protect W's reputation. What a mistake that was. You are right, I have to watch assigning too much blame to W as that is what probably got me here in the first place. I do need to keep on trying to improve me and be the lighthouse. I think I have done a good job so far considering wife will suggest to me that perhaps I need to try "other things". This is to help justify her actions I suppose. I don't know how I do it but I simply remain in love. While I titled this post self serving because the doctors comments did make me feel good, I am not taking any special credit for staying in love with wife. I'm just as addicted to her as she is to her Affair partner. Weird and I get scared that if she doesn't get on board sometime in the near future that my feelings may fade. I am also a Christian so your spiritual encouragement is nice to see.

WOE,
Sorry for the misread. After I posted i realized my error. May I suggest a book for you? Have you read Shattered Dreams by Larry Crabb? It was a book that gave me a better perspective of our walk. It also, put my M and the A in a proper perspective. I would love to hear what you think of the book. God has a plan for you and his purpose for your life will be fulfilled.

Christ's Love,
Roman121

Roman, I have not read the book but I will go out and get it this evening. I have read HNHN, Not Just Friends and a couple of other less mentioned books. If this could put the M and A in proper perspective that's what I need. My IC suggested that my perspective was way out of whack when I said that W's A made my mothers death seem like a day at the beach. So I suppose I could use a little help in that area.
Thanks.

Roman, one more question. While I will try to evaluate my contribution to the state of our marriage and try to put the A in perspective do you agree that I should no longer be in contact with OM even though W will continue in contact? In other words she goes out once a week to play in this league and spouses aren't welcome. Then during certain holidays there are parties that spouses are welcome at including some in my own home. I want to excuse myself even if W won't give these people up for me. Do you agree with this position?

WOE

Oh Jeez!

You are one of the poster's whose messages are loud and clear, and, typically, right on the mark. I confess, I did not know your sitch, but having read what you just posted, even though I'm terrified of responding, I just had to???

I have to ask why you are able to "live" with the continued contact? I am certain you are well versed on the MB principals, and you offer so much insight to others here based on those principals, yet you can tolerate the C.

Enlighten me, please?

SD

<small>[ June 02, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD, thanks for visiting. I was impressed with your support on CV's thread and you also seem quite versed. OK how and why I have gotten to this point.

As you know D-day's are paralyzing. Also my W confessed the ONS to me so I felt I didn't want to betray her confidence, didn't have the need for revenge and most of all didn't want her reputation to be ruined over this mistake. All misguided because it has allowed continued contact which is killing me (they exchanged calls today). Her reputation has suffered tremendously because I had to approach my brother for money for SH counseling so it is racing through my family and because she occassionally pulls out her photos of pool team and tells anyone willing to listen how much she just adores these guys (read OM)and on one occassion on Christmas night I just lost it and vented to her entire family unbeknownst to her. So everybody knows except pool team and apparently W what is going on. She was resistent to SH counseling so that has stopped though I continue IC. That's right I am several times per year in OM's company and even serve him drinks in my home. I won't even try to justify this but I can tell you he is part of a group so it's not as easy as just getting rid of him. It is a group that has some tenticles into other parts of our lives. Less and less so anymore.

But I can't get W to end contact. She simply won't do it and insists it just friendship now. Even SH told me just can never understand how bad she hurt me. He told her it would be the equivalent of her being in the same room with someone who raped her and keeping quiet. The only thing I can do is control. I am not going to participate in the group functions anymore. I have told W this but I think she believes I am bluffing. When I am not there I will speak volumes. I even called the OM once and asked him how he would feel if his GF called me 25 times per month. He responded "she'd be history". So even he gets it though I still didn't tell him I knew about the ONS, only the calls. To his credit he really doesn't call her. She is a wonderful person though and doesn't realize how bad she is hurting me, or at least I like to think she doesn't. And bottom line I love her very much and don't want to screw this up. Your suggestions are most welcome. I have so much more ridiculous stuff to tell if you have the time. I can't believe this myself. I must be nuts.

WOE

"She is a wonderful person though and doesn't realize how bad she is hurting me, or at least I like to think she doesn't."

Why doesn't she know how badly she is hurting you?

What is missing here?

Pep

Pepperband, you're right she does know how bad she is hurting me. I have fought and fought and fought with her over the phone calls. Not that she had to quit the team just quit calling him. So I take back that comment. She knows. I really am at a loss. While this is extremely dysfunctional somehow it works. At least enough for me to stay in love with her even after all this abuse. And when I say abuse I mean abuse (verbal). Willing to consider any suggestions. But patience has kept me in this fight and that is a plus.

Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
"While this is extremely dysfunctional somehow it works. At least enough for me to stay in love with her even after all this abuse."

What works? Are you happy?

Pep

Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
" Pepperband, you're right she does know how bad she is hurting me. I have fought and fought and fought with her over the phone calls. Not that she had to quit the team just quit calling him. So I take back that comment. She knows."

She knows you don't want her to call her former lover...

and you have fought and fought and fought about this...

And how does she know how much this hurts you???? NOT how angry it makes you ... but how it hurts you to your core...

How do you know she's aware that her behavior is killing you?
Pep

WOE

I don't know what to say, so I'm going to just ramble on for a bit and see what pops out.

You've described the A as a ONS, yet the contact has continued for some time. In fact, it is pretty routine, and pretty much "right out there" in your face? And she refuses to realize or understand the continued contact; ie, EA portion of the A is perhaps more damaging to YOU and your M than the ONS?

Have you employed the MB principles to your sitch? You have exposed to your family, but your W does NOT know it? And you've confronted the OM, but NOT about the ONS? Is the OM married, or have a SO? If so, has the ONS or the EA been exposed to her?

WOE, I'll be brutally honest with you here. I think you are selling yourself short on your M. It would seem that there are some things you could do to move forward, for the better, rather than "turtle up", and settle for the status quo. If, indeed, you are truly happy with this arrangement, then my observation is out of line, and for that, I apologize.

I'm thrilled the "wonderful and powerful" PEP joined this thread, as she is so keenly observant and boils situations down to the basics, PLUS, her responses are much shorter! LOL! Thanks, PEP! You mean so much to so many on these forums!

But I digress.

WOE, your posts have helped many people on these boards. I especially appreciate your posting to CV55, who is just having a really tough time coming to terms with her (F)WH.

Maybe by shaking your tree a bit, and calling in some "heavy hitters", like PEP, we can get your situation off the top, or bottom, of one of the hills of the rollercoaster. You seem to have just come to a stop?

Anyway, I'll look forward to your reply.

Best Wishes

SD

Hello,

I am sorry to jump in her but reading your posts are so very sad. You are totally in love with your wife but you are also such an enabeler. I am going to be harsh here but do you honestly believe that your wife could love you and continue to do the things she does to you? I honestly think there is a sadistic tinge to her.
She knows that there are virtually no consequences to her actions except you will not attend events with her. You went against exposing the affair which was and is still crucial. You protect her and you protect the OM. I almost think there is a tinge of masochism on your part to accept this.

You sound like a really great guy who is very kind hearted and your wife has taken advantage of this knowing that you will never leave and seemingly are willing to accept to all typs of continueing disrespectful behavior from her. It seems to me that until she gets to the point of respecting you and respecting your feeling then there is no reason for her to change her behavior. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. I think you loving her the way you do and accepting of this unacceptable behavior does not benefit you or her in the long run. I feel very sad for you but nevertheless only wish the best. Have you ever heard about the definition of insanity? It is doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result. Food for thought?

Bryanp first. I can't disagree with what you say. No I really don't think I'm a masochist. I'm genuinely motivated out of love. Consider that my W spent nine years in an appartment as a result of my gambling. So I know what an addiction is and I know what commitment is. That doesn't justify what she is doing but it probably allows her a bigger balance in the LB than otherwise. Is W a sadist. She may be subconsciously or consciously punishing me for past sins. Your right about me enabling this as well as the insanity part. I am working on these items. I haven't given up and that's why I'm still here and trying.

Pep, your next. Why does it work? Wife and I spend and inordinate amount of time together. We really seek eachother out and have a lot of fun together. She will routinely confirm that I am her best friend. We simply don't know the way out of this. I think that is really it. If she gives up and quits her team I have controlled her. I have forced her to quit. I don't want to wear that. I don't know if you saw my post about Summer Comes Early where she tried to put me in a bar with OM. I stopped the car and told her it will never happen. This brought tears to her eyes. She really thinks we can all be friends. Understand she doesn't study MB principals and I have never had an A. She just doesn't understand the depth of the pain. No one can if you haven't been there. But she knows she is hurting me so is she addicted to OM or punishing me for past sins? But I assure you that the fork in the road is here. I am not going to be in these peoples company and that is going to put her in a very awkward situation that I was trying to save her from over 2 years ago. So it's all for not. She will still face the inevitable embarrassment of everyone knowing her Marriage isn't so happy after all. And finally how do I know she knows she is hurting me? Because I have begged, pleaded and cried about it. She just tells me to take my blood pressure pills as if that's the problem. But I know she is scared and I don't want to break her. I am strong enough for now to continue this way.

SD, last but certainly not least. OK yes I have turted way too much. OM is single and when he had a GF I never bothered to inform her. She was just passing through anyway. That's what this guy's all about. Besides I never wanted to hear from him that W threw herself at him. That is the sad truth and I don't need to hear that from some piece of sh$t about the mother of my kids. You are also dead on about the EA being more damaging than the ONS. That has been processed and is a seperate issue from the EA. You cannot believe the things (fog) I've heard. When I saw the tepid phrases that most were posting on the "outrageous things your WS has said" I thought it was amateur hour. I would like to shake it up but I don't want to lose her by forcing her hand. I will eventually tell her that her family and my family know more than she realizes. This will be done out of respect and in a loving way and not an attempt to unfog her. Perhaps I'm way too codependent I don't know. But I am able to take the emotion out of it and apply a more cerebral approach to things. That has taken a lonnnnnnng time to get to but I'm here. Welcome all ideas.

WOE

Hey,

Have you asked her if she knows how much this continued contact is hurting you? If so, what did she say?

dewt

dewt,I've followed your story and I know you have been through the mill. You sig line speaks volumes. To answer your question I don't bother discussing it with her anymore. I have only stopped counseling with SH several weeks ago so she knows I am throwing a lot of money and energy at this. Several times recently she has found me on this forum and I think is somewhat amazed that ignoring this doesn't make it go away. I think she only considers the ONS the problem. I have always accused her of having a prettly cavalier attitude about affairs. I really don't know what goes through her head. If this was happening to someone close to us she could see the truth very easily. But I suppose she is somewhat fogged in even after all this time. There was another poster who told me his W's EA was dragging on for 5 years and he was ready to give up. So I don't know that there are these crystal clear solutions that can be applied to all cases. Very frustrating but I don't even think you could call it an EA anymore but it chips away at me none the less. I hope I have answered your question.

WOE

I recently wrote a post on "In Recovery" that is entitled "Some Thoughts on Recovery". It's fresh enough to be on the lead page of thread topics. Not many people have read it, but some that did have been moved by it, to the point of stating they were going to "share it with their WS".

It's a bit long, and there are several responses, but between the post and the replies, you may gain some ammo for your next move?

Just a suggestion...

SD

Thanks SD, I'm on my way. There is light at the end of this tunnel. I just got done looking at some post from 2long and my situation maybe completely different but it underscores commitment. Even if I lose I want to know I did my best. That's important.

Yeah. I've been through the mill. Renting a room there as a matter of fact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Truth is, I helped make this bed that I am lying in, so while it hurts like heck I try not to complain too much about it.

Anyway, I'm glad to hear that you wouldn't even call it an EA anymore. I'm guessing that she just feels she make a mistake that meant nothing and 'we should all just get over it and forget it happened'. (I've popped in on your posts but may have missed something) If so, the point that she's missing is that it's not the continued contact that's actually hurting you, but the fact that she should be more concerned with respecting your feelings...

I had your thread open after dinner and was struck by your statement about her not knowing how much she was hurting you. It really stuck in my head and when it was time for my son to call his mom I spoke with her briefly after.

I actually asked her if she knew how much she hurt me.

She said that people are different and deal with things differently but that she felt she had kind of an idea. I wanted to ask her how she felt about that, but was able to shut my trap before it came out. Don't get me wrong, one day I will ask that question, but not when she's ready to hop in the shower before heading to work.

BTW, being a habitual pot smoker and living with a dealer, how did she get custody? Even a mom-biased judge (and oh boy do I know about those) must have some scruples...

dewt