Dewt, renting a room at the mill is funny. Do they know how much they hurt us? NO. I believe you had an A prior to Dylan's. Did you have any idea how bad you hurt her? The Mexicans have a saying; "to talk of bulls is not the same as being in the bull ring". The Chinese version; "for those who understand no explaination is necessary and for those who don't, none will suffice". The ONS is processed I suppose. What hurts is the fact that I have put myself in this position of playing the fool in front of this fool (OM). That she doesn't have enough respect for me to make this man go away. That she continues to criticize when the only thing I have ever done is love her through this difficult time. And THAT is how I know this is still an affair on some level. The other thing I am fairly certain of is that she will eventually come crashing down at some point in the future.

SD, I did read your post on the recovery board. It will take a few more readings to digest but I can say the only endorsement I see missing is 2OFAK. You've got some heavyweights agreeing so that speaks volumes. What Chorus said about every recovery being different I would contest a bit, because there are certain things we all need to recover and I suppose number one is compensation. A pound for a pound. That is the frustrating part they the WS won't read the books, won't embrace counseling and won't ackowlege our pain. I need that but first I gotta get "cutie petootee" out of our lives. One more time (because this post is titled self serving); trailer park, pot dealer, under the table construction worker, 2 kids the same age with two different mothers, never married but boasts 10 married woman and not that big in the front (haha). Now I feel better.

I have learned an awful lot here, and I remember TMCM explaining to me that even though it was a ONS, that woman will want to maintain some kind of a connection because sex represents much more to them than to men. How accurate that was.

WOE

Your indulgence of her participating in the pool hall is akin to her indulging you in going to casinos just for the buffet...

codepedent. coaddict. What does Steve say about Plan B? It appears you've done the best plan a that can be done in these circumstances.

You're not controlling her. You're giving her a choice. Recovery from an addiction, which includes a relationship with you, or separation from her enabler and former best friend.

You don't treat best friends the way she treats you.

WOE,
I am not big on plan B, but in your circumstance you need to consider a modified plan B. You have a great M aside from this continued contact. After 2 years, it is obvious she will not change, so now she needs to choose. I think separating yourself from the OM is okay, but I doubt it will bring the desired results. The first thing that need to happen is for you to come to a place where you can live without her. It sounds like she has replaced your gambling addiction. You have to come to a place where you are not addicted to her. I came to this realization at about 5 months after dday and after reading the book I suggested. Yes your W s/b the most important thing in your life. If you start to pull back are you concerned that she will choose herself over you? When I pulled back, my W pursued me. She did not want to lose me. I would bet your W would not want to lose you, but she needs to understand that is the risk if she continues to hurt you. Its either that or you will have to accept this situation for now and HOPE for change. I realize she stuck by you in your dark time and now you are doing the same. Plan B activities are used to break contact. You an I know she is still vulnerable to a repeat if she continues contact. Think bout it, because if this continues you may lose your love for her.

Christ's Love,
Roman121

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong> Do they know how much they hurt us? NO. I believe you had an A prior to Dylan's. Did you have any idea how bad you hurt her? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah. After D-day I knew. I sooooo knew. And it just about killed me inside that I could cause such pain to the one I love so much.

And facing the look in her eyes, the pain I so selfishly and thoughtlessly caused... it was unbearable. I could not live with that.

And as a result, I died. The old me died that is. The cynical me. The me that had the ability to justify an affair. The me that had the ability to lie to my wife. The me that had only heard of devotion and integrity.

The Bible tells how our old selves must die so that we may be reborn in Christ. Something similar happened to me that year.

So yeah, I knew I caused her pain.

Never again.

dewt

duplicate bad!

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</small>

Oh, WOE, There's one other thing to keep in mind as you see the similarity between separating you from gambling habitats and separating her from the pool hall...

ADDICTS WILL SAY/DO ANYTHING (nasty, nice, you name it) to maintain the status quo and access to their fix. They will lie, rage, pretend to comply, etc.

But until they hit bottom and are seriously threatened with losing everything they hold dear, they will not let go. Hence the 12 step cartoon of the cat splatted against the shredded wall with the caption: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything I ever let go of had claw marks all over it!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep in mind that includes everyone they care about winds up with the claw marks too as they fight to maintain their grip on stuff that's killing them and their relationships and their quality of life.

KaylaAndy, I don't think I had the pleasure of seeing any of your posts but your response is very inciteful. First SH didn't suggest anything about Plan B. He explained that OM is not at all a factor (this is true, finally). But he agreed there is no need for me to be in contact and eventually she needs to end contact. But as long as I was able to hang in there he didn't put a time frame on it. He told me don't draw a line in the sand but politely beg out of each invitation and she'll eventually catch on. He told me W has the uncanny ability to compartmentalize things. A quality his says is normal for men but not for woman. He explained that woman who have had difficult childhood or traumatic experiences develope this quality. Men just have it. He told me she will never understand how bad she hurt me.

I have often heard A's compared to addiction and logically I know that. But it never hit so hard as it did when you spelled it out for me. It did bring back the gambling memories and how that all crashed down on me. I was sitting in front of a bank officer explaining my way out of kiting checks. I could have went to jail. With tears streaming down my face the woman said it will be OK we'll, work this out. I replied I'm not crying over this but rather that my mother is dying of cancer (she died the following day). When I went to buy the booze for the party that follows the burial the woman at the counter said American Express wants to speak to you. I was with my 5 yr. old when they handed me the phone for AMEX to tell me they couldn't honor the purchase. So I know what it is to crash hard and I think W is in for a similar landing. I will stop enabling this but I can't do her part. Plan B isn't required yet as we continue to move in the right direction albeit, inch by painful inch.

Dewt, bless you. That is a heartfelt response and I admire your personal growth. I have grown to. I am learning what it means to love. In a lot of selfish ways it is important to me that W know how bad she hurt me. But beyond that I want to be a success story and come out of this ugly mess with a wonderful marriage. But as Roman123 somehow saw, I do have a pretty good marriage beside this elephant in the living room.

Roman, I tried to get the book but Waldens didn't have it so I'll go somewhere else today. It's sounds important. Am I afraid I would lose her? Not now. At one time yes. She would have
left out of pride, defiance or spite but not because she didn't love me. She is scared. We aren't able to talk about this and I have sooooo many outlets; this board, IC and a male friend who is in an A. Last night we had a few drinks (which admittedly is another problem) and I LB'd pretty good. Some of it stuck. Because this morning I apologized and told her she "is a great baby". She responded "I'm not so sure". Perhaps this is me enabling but I really feel she is one delicate flower. I just don't want to crush her. I want her to have a safe place to come to. But why she can't see how good I could be to her, I have no idea. Two days before D-Day I gave her a picture of me and the kids taken at a studio. In other words she wasn't in the photo. The next day she went and we got a complete family photo taken, the very next day she confessed to the ONS. So I feel I can get through to her.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me with heartfelt support and sharp advice.

WOE

I have a direct question for walkingoneggs and, of course, anyone else who cares to respond. I'm new to marriagebuilders and although I've been trying to put things back together for a while, we haven't really been in a plan. My H won't give up his A at the present time because she meets his emotional needs and with me, he says, he is emotionally drained. Yet, he cares deeply for me, he says, and we are "in love" and highly compatable in other ways, just our emotional relationship tapered off. So, I meet most of his needs and she meets the emotional ones (I never knew this was a big need of his - in 30+ years he never told me this was a problem!)
Anyway, my question to you is this: I read a response you wrote on another thread in March or so and it said doing the right things can help the WS emerge from the FOG. What things? I need specifics. I want to follow plan A and be there for him in a positive manner but if we can't build "love deposits" while he's still in the affair, why should I bother trying? I'm really confused over this and what to do. What can i do that won't meet his emotional needs but will open the door. I don't want to enable the affair any more than I already am but I need to know what to do. I am seriously thinking of a SH counseling session but don't know whether I should do it alone or with H.
Any help would be appreciated. We're really not ready for Plan B yet since we are just reading and discussing the BC and entering Plan A.

Andi51, I will post to you under you name. Give me a couple of minutes to put some thoughts together.

WOE