</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But we CAN’T choose to “fall in love” (romantic love) because “falling in love” is a feeling and NOT a choice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Therefore we can’t help “falling in love” with someone outside marriage </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">False. We can keep ourselves from falling in love with someone outside our marriage by making ourselves emotionally unavailable to them, and by refusing to let them meet our most important emotional needs. This may also mean making ourselves physically unavailable to them. Of course, it is much harder to summon the will to do this if those needs are not being met in your marriage, because the "pull" from the opportunity to have an unmet need met is much greater than the "pull" to have a met need met double.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm the one who originally posted the comment that "Therefore we can’t help “falling in love” with someone outside marriage”. I agree 100% with what John said, but I want to explain WHY I’ve made that comment in the first place. I guess I haven’t made myself clear enough and have left space for misinterpretation by some people.

On THIS THREAD I’ve received certain assumptions from posters who’ve said:

1) that I have a thought process which is not trustworthy
If that’s true I why have I decided to keep strong boundaries with friends of opposite sex after my involvement with XOM then? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Please read THIS POST;

2) that I’m only in love with myself because I’ve said it’s possible to have feelings of love for more than 1 person at the same time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I DIDN’T say anywhere that having feelings of love for someone else other than you spouse gives you permission to ACT on those feelings – NO WAY! I’ve made it very clear on THIS POST that although one can “fall in love” with someone outside marriage, we can however choose NOT to act on those feelings because one decide (choice) to apply “real/true” agape love in one’s M and towards one’s S and act in all parties involved best interest. Out of “real” love (choice) one can also decide NOT to act on those romantic feelings towards the OP because one knows it will damage the OPs marriage too. In my situation I choose to build a friendship with XOM and I allowed certain inappropriate behaviour (subtle flirting on e-mail – which was WRONG). So although certain inappropriate actions (which was my own wrong choice) also lead to inappropriate feelings I've developed for him, I didn’t intend to or want to develope those feelings for him in the end. However, after the boundaries was crossed and I developed those feelings I’ve eventually decided to END the friendship.

3) that I does not yet get it and everything I say is just fog talk
If all I said is not true and just “fog talk”, then some things said by Dr Harley himself and by the author of the book “The Road Less Travelled” (extractions I’ve posted on THIS POST), then it indicates that Dr Harley and the author of “Road Less Traveled” (a book which was also recommended by some other members before) also doesn’t get it and practised “fog talking”. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

4) One poster in particular said she thinks there are more DEVIOUS things behind my so called “fog talk”
What does that poster mean by those words??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

II’ve posted on THIS THREAD that although people can choose to create an environment that nurtures feelings, they don’t necessarily and intentionally choose the experience of falling in love itself. People choose to speak to a person, smile at a person, divulge more and more personal information to a person, etc. (out of numerous reasons), but people don’t necessarily have to fall in love with the person as well... There IS certain ENs that can be filled outside of the M as well, actions that helps builds friendships between people (except for physical intimacy and other thing that solely belongs in M of course). That’s why I’ve said people can choose certain behaviour (which is not necessarily inappropriate in all situations) which can cause a person to fall in love with another, although they didn’t want it or intend it to happen. For instance, someone can fill and unmet need for conversation that unconscioulsy deposits too many love units in a person's love bank. If I let a person fill a big emotional need that can also be filled by other people than only the spouse (like conversation for example), I choose to let the person fill that need, but I don’t necessarily choose romantic love be triggered by this. Let me explain with the following perfect and excellent example from Dr Harley’s Q & A column – please read it carefully and thoroughly (especially the parts I have put in bold):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DEAR DR. HARLEY,

I am female, 34 years old, and have been married 8 years. Lately, I have felt very ignored and restless in our relationship. I don't think my husband is aware of these feelings because I try to hide them, but they are in my heart. He buys me beautiful gifts and tries to give me his love and support. He has always been a very kind man, but he would rather watch TV and talk to our dog than talk with me. That's just the way he is.

Recently a man has come into my life that has rekindled feelings in me that have been dormant for a long time. I find myself thinking about him often and wish I could be with him. I feel so guilty and ashamed of these feelings, but nevertheless, they are there. I try not to think about him, but I do. I don't know if he feels the same way about me, but sometimes he looks at me in a way that gives me a signal that he might. Nothing has been said or done between us. I don't want to tell my husband about this because this man is my husband's best friend. There are things I can do to get closer to the "other man" if I will allow it to happen, but I'm afraid of the consequences. I feel I'm at a crossroads. I'm sure you've heard this type of story before. I would value your opinion. I cannot talk to anyone about this.
R.J.

R. J. described the essential conditions for an affair quite well. First, there is usually a dissatisfaction with marriage that stems from the failure to meet an important emotional need. For R.J., her need is conversation, which is usually missing in marriage when women have affairs. She has a deep and pervasive need to talk to her husband, a need that all the gifts in the world cannot meet.

R.J.'s husband has demonstrated his care for her in many different ways. But he doesn't care for her in the way that would deposit the most love units. Because he has not met her need for conversation, she is vulnerable to an affair.

The best friend of R.J.'s husband (we'll call him Bob) didn't intend to meet her emotional needs whenever he talked to her. He was just being friendly, and carried on conversations the way he would with almost anyone. But whether he intended to or not, whenever he talked with her, he deposited scores of love units. After a while, he might have noticed how his conversations were effecting her, but I'm not sure he would have made much of it.

I'm also sure that R.J. did not intend to fall in love with Bob. Those feelings that he rekindled in her came as a surprise, and she is at a loss to know what to do about it. She knows that they are a risk to her marriage, and yet she feels compelled to draw ever closer to the object of her new love.

There are some who feel that those feelings of love are a signal from God to abandon past relationships and rush into this new relationship. But it's no signal from God. Instead, it's the way our emotions mindlessly encourage us to spend more time with those who meet our emotional needs. If we submitted to our emotions, and chased after anyone who at the moment deposited the most love units in our Love Banks, our lives would become chaotic in no time. And the lives of family and friends, to say nothing about our own lives, would be trashed.

The more sane way to approach unsuspected feelings of love toward those outside of marriage is to confront the problem honestly and intelligently. But R.J. did not want to appear to be an ungrateful complainer, so she violated the Policy of Radical Honesty. She did not reveal her true feelings to her husband so that they could resolve the crisis together.

It's true that in some marriages a spouse will complain about an unmet need, and find their complaint met with anger and recriminations. When there seems to be no hope for satisfaction, these people find themselves particularly vulnerable to an affair. After all, the spouse had a chance to meet the need, but refused. So why not have an affair?

But in R.J.'s case, and in many like her's, the spouse is given no opportunity to learn to meet the unmet need, because it is not clearly revealed.

So far, R.J. is not actually having an affair. She is simply drawn to Bob. He is attractive to her because he is so easy to talk to. Whenever they are together, he makes a special effort to converse with her, and he shows a genuine interest her favorite topics. The friends of good conversation prevail, and the enemies of good conversation are nowhere to be found (see the Q&A column, "What to Do When Your Conversation Becomes Boring and Unpleasant"). The pleasure of her conversation with him deposited so many love units that she fell in love with him, and so it's natural to assume that she will want to talk to him even more. She is finding it difficult to wait for the next opportunity to see him. If she wants to talk to him more often, she will need to create new ways to spend more time with him.

R.J. is now at a crossroads. She can take the next step in developing her relationship with her husband's friend, or she can explain her problem to her husband and try to resolve the issue with him. The advice I gave her was to tell her husband about the entire situation. He should be the one she enjoys talking to the most, and her feelings for his best friend was a good wake-up call. If her husband were to learn to meet her need for conversation, the temptation to have an affair with Bob would be much easier to handle.

But if she were to do what most people instinctively do, her next step would be to tell the man how she felt about him, and ask him to get together with her more often, privately. She would tell him precisely what she wrote in her letter to me, saying that he has "rekindled feelings in me that have been dormant for a long time. I find myself thinking about you often and wish I could be with you. I feel so guilty and ashamed of these feelings, but nevertheless, they are there. I try not to think about you, but I do."

Once this honest expression of feelings is out of the bag, an affair is off and running. Even if her husband's friend had never given her a single romantic thought, the seed is planted, and starts to grow. Such an admission would lead to his thinking long and hard about his own marriage, and he would start seeing R.J. in an entirely new way. If one of his important emotional needs was not being met in his marriage, he would express his frustration to R.J., and she would willingly agree to meet that need. The rest would be history.

Of course, it's possible that Bob, all along, was feeling the same way toward R.J. as she felt for him, and after her declaration of love for him, he would immediately reciprocate, fall into each other's arms, and run off to a motel together.

But it's more likely that they would simply talk to each other more often, depositing even more love units. Sex is actually not the driving force in most affairs -- it is conversation and affection. In fact, most people who have affairs regard the sex as a minor player. What they appreciate the most about the relationship is the love and acceptance that is communicated in their conversation. But sex is usually the inevitable outcome, and since sex works best with great conversation and affection, the sex is also great. Once sex is added to the mix, so many love units get deposited that the couple cannot imagine losing each other. They are both addicted to the relationship.

The unsuspecting jilted spouse usually senses a problem when an affair begins. For one thing, an affair usually takes up quite a bit of time, and all sorts of excuses are given to be away from home -- having to work late, impulsive trips to the store and unexplained absences from work -- they all become more and more difficult to believe. Telephone records and credit card receipts are carefully hidden, for if they are found, they will often reveal the scope of the affair.

When the spouses are together, an emotional distance usually prevails. Sex is almost always a problem for women who are having an affair, and many men having an affair find they cannot make love to their wives, either. In many cases, intimacy in marriage becomes so bad that a separation is requested to "sort things out." An affair is often suspected by the jilted spouse, but almost always vigorously denied by the offending spouse. It usually takes solid evidence, like B.D.'s finding her husband in bed with her best friend, to get an unfaithful spouse to admit the truth.

I've seen so many spouses lie about affairs, that when one spouse wants a separation, my best guess is that he or she is having an affair. I'm right almost every time.

Why would anyone need to be alone to sort things out? It makes much more sense to think that being separated makes it easier to be with their lover. Granted, there are many good reasons for a separation, such as physical or extreme mental abuse. But of all those I've seen separate, most have had lovers in the wings.

Since an affair usually creates emotional distance between spouses, lovers describe their increasing dissatisfaction with their marriages. They talk about how incompatible they are in marriage and how compatible they are with each other. The addiction they have for each other turns the relationship into a passion that makes an eternal relationship with each other an absolute necessity. Many would rather commit suicide together than to return to their horrible spouses.

That's not to say that they do not show compassion for their spouses. In fact, they usually express their guilt to each other for the pain they cause their families. But if either of them would talk about how much they loved their spouses, and how happy they were in their marriage, the conversation would tend not to deposit very many love units. Instead, they compare each other with their spouses in a most favorable light, saying that they wish they had known each other before they were married, and that they are perfect for each other. Such expressions of admiration deposit carloads of love units.

At the crossroads R.J. faces, she should avoid telling Bob how she feels about him at all costs. And she should certainly not let him know that she is dissatisfied with her husband. As soon as Bob would know about her feelings for him and her marital dissatisfaction, the risk of an affair would be so great that she must end her friendship with him for life. From the moment he knows she loves him, their friendship should end.

R.J. should be able to talk to someone about her marital problems. I'm glad she had the courage to write me. We should all be able to tell someone how we feel deep inside. But R.J. should not complain about her spouse to anyone unless she has made the same complaint to her spouse. Furthermore, the person she confides in should be either a same-sex friend or a professional counselor (like me). To tell an opposite-sex friend about your terrible marriage is to invite disaster.

R.J.'s greatest failure was dishonesty. If she had been honest with her husband about her need for conversation, and they had resolved the problem, Bob's conversations with her would not have been so enchanting.

It's almost impossible to stumble into an affair if you follow the Rule of Honesty. Her husband loves her dearly, and if she were to have told him about her frustration with their conversation, he probably would have taken steps to improve. In the beginning of her relationship with him, he may have spent hours talking to her just as his best friend did. In the beginning of their relationship, she may have fallen in love with him because of their conversation. But, as so many spouses do, he began talking to her less and less, little knowing that he was draining her Love Bank.

The solution to R.J.'s problem at the time she wrote her letter is to follow the Rule of Honesty. She should write her husband the same letter she wrote me. He should know about the disaster that is about to take place so he can protect both himself and herself from it.

Then, I'm afraid, they must both distance themselves from Bob. Even though this man may not have any feelings for R.J., her feelings for him make him too dangerous to have as a friend, at least until they are able to improve their conversations with each other. If R.J. stops seeing and talking to Bob, the feelings she has for him will subside, but at first she may go through a period of withdrawal where she misses him terribly. Withdrawal usually only lasts a few weeks, with those feelings popping up once in a while after that. If her feelings for Bob eventually disappear, her husband can remain friends with him. But if R.J. finds that they reappear whenever they are together, they should plan to end their friendship with Bob.

This may seem very harsh and unrealistic, but the alternative to ending such a friendship is to create a huge risk of having an affair. And if Bob were to know how she feels about him, then they most certainly should end their friendship with him.

Affairs are almost always with friends and co-workers. That's because the people you work with and those you spend leisure time with are usually in the best position to meet your most important emotional needs. But in the world of the internet, total strangers can also meet your emotional needs through chat rooms and e-mail because they meet your need for conversation so effectively. Do you and your spouse talk as much and as deeply as you talk to people on the internet? If not, watch out. As you probably know, an affair through the internet is becoming one of the most dangerous risks of owning a computer.

We are all wired for affairs. The only people who are exempt are those who are utterly incapable of meeting someone else's emotional needs. If you can't meet anyone's needs, no one will ever fall in love with you. But if your spouse has anything to offer others, and you are not meeting an important emotional need, commitment to "forsake all others" can become words without meaning.

B.D. trusted her spouse with her friend of 21 years. That was a big mistake, as she later discovered. There is no emotion more powerful than romantic love, and people have abandoned their careers, their children, their religion, their security and their health because of it. Try talking to a man who is in love with his secretary about the suffering he is causing his wife and children. Try explaining to him how he will lose his job, his money, his self-respect. You find yourself talking to a man with half a brain, a man who seems possessed. What's going on that causes him to lose all of his perspective on life? It's nothing more than a feeling of love. But that feeling is one of the most important feelings we have, and we will do almost anything to get it and keep it.

Last week I got a letter from a man whose wife has a close friendship with his best friend (male). His friend and his wife do almost everything together recreationally. He wrote to say that I was dead wrong about his particular spouse, and that my advice that friends outside of marriage should be same-sex friends was paranoid. He trusted his wife, and she could spend as much time with this friend as she wanted to. My response was for him to write me again in three years and let me know if he felt the same way after he discovered that his wife and best friend were having an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the above example J.R. have developed those feelings of love towards Bob BEFORE there developed any affair or inappropriate actions between them. As Dr Harley have said J.R. didn’t intend to fall in love with Bob and those feelings that he rekindled in her came as a surprise. She definitely didn’t CHOOSE to fall in love with Bob… So, my question to all who believes that “falling” in love is always INTENTIONALLY and a conscious CHOICE – how on earth do you explain JR’s situation above then??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I guess all I want to try to get through to some people is that although we can't always have control over our feelings or choose to have certain feelings, we can however control our actions; understand and be honest about our own personal weaknesses, vulnerabilities and unmet ENs; apply certain boundaries in our relationships with other people (especially opposite sex friends) and take certain preventive steps in order to help preventing those feelings from developing. I really hope I could clear some misunderstandings from my previous posts.

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

Suzet...what I believe is that without the actions...
and you chose the actions ...
the internet connection...
you never would have developed the feeling of love...

and once you take the actions of love away from another...and give to someone else when you are in a state of marriage...it is disrepectful to call those actions and feelings love when they are painful to others...

attraction and love are way different beasts..
I do believe people can have a visual attraction to others with no interaction necessary...

Since an affair usually creates emotional distance between spouses, lovers describe their increasing dissatisfaction with their marriages.

once you reach the state that you action are causing distance between spouses..it is no longer "love"...

we can simply agree to disagree..
again and again..
I do not believe it just happens
I do not believe people couldn't help it...the feeling wouldn't wouldn't be there with out the acitons
and I do not believe they are victims to falling in love with someone other than their spouse....

loving two people at the same time...always leaves one of the persons neglected..
love in action is not neglectful...so the label love doesn't fit the act...and love in action...
the feeling is pretty irrelevant...especially when it brings only destruction...

ark

Ark, I understand and hear what you are saying, but my questions still remains: In the above example J.R. have developed those feelings of love towards Bob BEFORE there developed any affair or inappropriate actions between them. As Dr Harley have said J.R. didn’t intend to fall in love with Bob and those feelings that he rekindled in her came as a surprise. She definitely didn’t CHOOSE to fall in love with him…although se choose to just have normal, appropriate conversations with him… If “falling” in love is always a conscious choice how do you explain JR’s situation then? Are you also saying her initial choice to allow this man to have conversation and friendship with her on platonic level was wrong (since he was also a friend of her H)? How could she forseen that she would developed those inappropriate feelings? Wasn't she just vulnerable because of her unmet need for conversation?

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

suzet I have said all along that the actions of falling in love are the choice...
therefor the actions engaged in that lead to the feeling of love...are chosen when the actions are chosen....


the feelings of love in an affair are tainted irrelevant and of no GOOD PRODUCTIVE use to anyone...
they only bring chaos and pain...and excuses nothing...

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, my question to all who believes that “falling” in love is always INTENTIONALLY and a conscious CHOICE – how on earth do you explain JR’s situation above then???

Suzet......?....you YOURSELF explain why it is a conscieous CHOICE right here....in YOUR OWN ANSWER!

I guess all I want to try to get through to some people is that although we can't always have control over our feelings or choose to have certain feelings, we can however control our actions ; understand and be honest about our own personal weaknesses, vulnerabilities and unmet ENs; apply certain boundaries in our relationships with other people (especially opposite sex friends) and take certain preventive steps in order to help preventing those felings from developing. I really hope I could clear some misunderstandings from my previous posts.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May be Suzet.......if you read your own words it will become more clear to you? Then after you read.....if you put yourself yourself in those situations again you will understand what everyone here is trying so hard to show you. YOU WILL BE CHOOSING to put yourself in POSITION FOR CHOOSING TO FALL IN LOVE>>>> DO YOU SEE IT NOW???

Blessings,
Atruheart

Suzet

You are misunderstanding some things here.

Intenions are not the same as choices.

When a bank robber choses to carry a gun with him to committ a crime he is not necessarily intending to shoot anyone.

But he is choosing to have the option to shoot someone if the situation arises.....SO

Indirectly he is intending to have the option that leads to the action.

Let me explain on a relationship level.

A WS may not be intending to have an affair or fall in love but here is what they are choosing to do intentionally.

1) Intending to ignore prudent boundaries by sharing intimate conversations, developing a routine regular relationship with OP, keeping those contacts and conversations secret and so on.

2) Intending to accept flattery or flirtation or to give flattery or flirtation.

3) Intenionally ignoring moments when boundaries are crossed. For example the first time both kiss no alarm goes off both say "oops that was a mistake sorry won't happen again" then both put themselves right back in the same place for it to happen again.

Like the bank robber that shoots and kills the bank guard you think you never intended to committ any marital crime. But you chose to carry the adultery gun with you while ignoring the potential outcome of that action.

Ark, if your answer on my question means you also labelling conversation and giving support and interest to another person through friendship (as in J.R’s example) as an action of falling in love and contious actions that lead to the feeling of love, then I’m afraid no married person can’t allow themselves to engage in conversation and platonic friendship with any opposite sex person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I’m sorry, but your reasoning and explanation on this particular question doesn’t make any sense to me… However, I will not try to reason with you anymore. At least whe can agree to disagree on some things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks anyway for you input an time to respond. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

I'm with Suzet on this one.

I respect SDFR's input immensely, and I was so hoping that when he said "You are misunderstanding some things here" that I, too, would see the light.

Intending to ignore prudent boundaries by sharing intimate conversations
In the example quoted by Suzet, JR didn't ignore prudent boundaries. Her feelings of love were kindled by normal friend-to-friend conversations. I agree that if she had chosen to share intimate conversations with Bob, she'd be in an affair. But she didn't. Yet she still felt "in love" or infatuated with him.

Intending to accept flattery or flirtation or to give flattery or flirtation.
The story doesn't say that any flattery or flirtation was exchanged. In fact, it specifically states that JR should *avoid* these actions, because they would mark the beginning of an A. It also says that Bob is talking to her like he'd talk to anyone. So no flattery nor flirtation has gone on yet JR still finds herself "falling in love" with Bob.

Intenionally ignoring moments when boundaries are crossed.
From my reading, Harley makes it clear that no boundaries have YET been crossed, and so no A has occurred. He states that IF boundaries are crossed, JR and Bob must never be friends nor commnicate in the future. JR is at a crossroads. So no boundary has been crossed, yet she is "in love."

I certainly don't mean to be antagonistic, especially with SDFR. Like I said, IMO he's among the saner more eloquent posters here. I must say that I agree with Suzet, however. You cannot control your feelings but you can and must control your actions.

Comments welcome! This is very interesting.

Suzet, I am glad for you that you have now made boundaries. If you talk as though you have zero control over whom you will fall in love with, just because...(any reason that means a lot to you)...then you are showing the opposite of clarity.

Many folks work alongside others, and enjoy many aspects of working with them. Promoting the talk and the thinking that keeps it professional will keep you out of loving "strangers" to the marriage.

H/O in your relationship with your own spouse is the most important thing in your world. If you have that kind of love with your own H, then you won't be falling for anyone else. If you still have falling in love problems with other people, then there is probably IC issues that are not fixed at the MB site. That would involve the personal nature of the self, and whether your own personal boundaries are kind of blurred. I think probably a lot of WS experience this to an extent. Some worse than others.

Values that are upheld by you are the values that shine through in your daily living. If you value something you give it the utmost care. When you know that it can break, you will give it the finest care to avoid that.

Talking about love as though it were just something you can share with other people other than your spouse, shows something integral to your belief system. There is a flaw there.

To say that I can love my H and my children and my extended family in a certain way is one thing. To say I can love another man in the same exact way that I love my own H is preposterous. I live and give my H what no other man can have. I won't offer my love up to another. Why would I? It is not in my best judgement to even begin to believe that I can love two men at the same time, the way that I love solely my own H.

What the betrayal means in a marriage, is that there was a betraying judgement, and allowance of trying to get something outside of the marriage, without having to pay for it.

You choose which kind of investments you make in your own stock. You pay for it with your own money. If it is family money, you ought to share what choices you make before you go and just play it on a feeling that fleets on through you.

When we got married we made a vow to each other. That there would be not another to share this special thing with. If you don't defend your marriage and uphold your vows you will pay a high price. Delusional talk will not protect you, only causes a large cataract over your eyes and then you can not see anything.

Atrueheart,

Those words I have posted doesn’t explain AT ALL that falling in love is a conscious choice (certainly not in J.R’s example). In fact, the opposite is true… Those words simply explains that people who aren’t aware of their own unmet needs and personal weaknesses and vulnerabilities, can set themselves unwittingly and unconsciously up for danger if they let someone else met those need and if they aren’t aware of the dangers by engaging in such activity. I’m not talking about intentionally and obvious wrong activities (such as intimate conversation; physical involvement etc.), but I’m talking about ENs here that is under normal circumstance okay and appropriate to be filled by other people as well (for example the need for conversation, support, friendship etc.). JR is a classic example of this. Anyway, I understand what you're trying to say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stunned dad,

Thanks for your post, what you’ve said make perfect sense to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A person can indeed make WRONG choices although their inherent INTENTIONS are good!

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley makes it clear that no boundaries have YET been crossed, and so no A has occurred. He states that IF boundaries are crossed, JR and Bob must never be friends nor commnicate in the future. JR is at a crossroads. So no boundary has been crossed, yet she is "in love."


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley is saying how to avoid an A!! People don't have to have sex to think they "are in love".....the boundries for these two WAS crossed at the emotional level....therefore should have stopped themselves from being so intimate in conversation etc.....If you are heterosexual.....and your E/N's are being met by the opposite sex that is not your H>>>>>then you are CHOOSING to become vulnerable to to feel you are "in love" just like Jr. and Bob!!! Therefore since you have the KNOWLEDGE of this, you are CHOOSING.

Your right...this is a great topic!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Turtlehead, I'm glad to see there is at least one poster who agree with me on this topic and who can help to explain what I'm trying to say! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> "The Road Less Traveled" was indeed an excellent book to read and helped me A LOT to understand certain things about what happened to me, but if everyone disagree on what I'm trying to say here, it also means that the book hold no grounds and is just a lot of crap! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That book was one of the BEST SELLERS in the world and was written by a well-known psychotherapist.

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can set themselves unwittingly and unconsciously up for danger if they let someone else met those need and if they aren’t aware of the dangers by engaging in such activity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[

B]Suzet, why is it that when I post with you I feel there is a debate yet at the same time we are actually "saying the same thing??" LOL

I think the ONLY diff. in our opinion is basiclly you are saying that there is NO fault by anyone that people fall in love, I am saying there IS...When we DECIDE to let someone else INTO our lives who is depositing into our love-bank.....we are MAKING A CHOICE!

WS's who have E/A or P/A are to blame for going outside of M to get needs met. Period.

Blessings, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Atruheart[/B]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Road Less Traveled" was indeed an excellent book to read and helped me A LOT to understand certain things about what happened to me, but if everyone disagree on what I'm trying to say here, it also means that the book hold no grounds and is just a lot of crap! That book was one of the BEST SELLERS in the world and was written by a well-known psychotherapist.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another best selling book is titled the Holy Bible~~~~~ and inside it lists the 10 commandments.

One of them is :
Thou shall not commit adultry.( and it doesn't say it's o.k if it's not intentional)Loving another besides your w or h is adultry in this book!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It also says A H should love his W like Christ loves the church!
But it does not say to go out and make friendships with other M to fill your needs if your H doesn't.

Not to compare Suzet, but I believe this book has sold more than any other book in the world.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and still even people who read it and "believe" it ....question what it says if they fail in some way.

Blessings,
Atruheart

atrueheart,

I understand what you're saying (no A has yet occurred, Harley is saying how to avoid one, no sex needed for a person to think they're "in love"). Could you please elaborate on your statement that the boundaries for these two was crossed at an emotional level? Is that the same as saying feelings of "in love" are beginning to occur? And if so, how could that be avoided - the *initial* feelings, not any followup activities.

I don't see that they have been intimate in conversation, so nothing to stop as far as that goes: He was just being friendly, and carried on conversations the way he would with almost anyone. I'm curious as to why you think they have been intimate in conversation. Perhaps this is where many WS and potential WS are similar - in their inability to see the moment a line has been crossed.

You are saying that when you allow your ENs to be met by someone of the opposite sex, then you are choosing to become vulnerable to feelings of "in love" with someone other than your spouse. I'm cool with that. Obviously, however, you can't have no conversation with men, nor is it possible to keep all men from admiring your accomplishments, etc.

I'm thinking the difference in our thinking is that Suzet and I see the flow thusly:
friendship->"in love"->figure out which ENs are being met and ask H to meet them

whereas somehow you and others are able to see:
friendship->ENs being met->talk to H

How do you tell normal conversation, admiration, etc. from ENs being met, other than the initial glimmerings of that "in love" feeling?

turtlehead...

in even the harley example..there is a huge red flag of all is not right in the marriage..

the feelings of neglect in conversation are present...

and instead of turning to the spouse to get those needs met...they with-hold that information and turn to another to meet that need....

There does not have to intimate conversation...that normal friend conversation..one of the top needs of this "person" when met by someone else outside of the marriage...is the ground work of the actions leading to the feeling of love...

you don't have to talk sex...to be attracted and feel love for someone...did you choose to feel those feelings....in the sense that you chose the actions that lead you there...yes...(is my answer)

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet, why is it that when I post with you I feel there is a debate yet at the same time we are actually "saying the same thing??" LOL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atrueheart, I understand what you’re saying, I experience the same thing with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maybe it is because you are BS and I’m FWS and we see and experience things from a somewhat different angle because of our different positions?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the ONLY diff. in our opinion is basically you are saying that there is NO fault by anyone that people fall in love, I am saying there IS...When we DECIDE to let someone else INTO our lives who is depositing into our love-bank.....we are MAKING A CHOICE!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atrueheart, there must be some misunderstanding here… I definitely don’t think there is NO fault by anyone that people fall in love… In most cases it IS indeed their fault, but it is dangerous to make the general assumption that this is the case in ALL circumstances. I was using J.R. example to illustrate how it’s possible that people can fall in love and develope inappropriate feelings without necessarily engaging in inappropriate and wrong activities and behaviour... I use JR's example to illustrate how people can fall in love before the boundaries is crossed. Bob and JR was just engaging in normal conversation and friendship with each other, but JR developed those feelings because she was vulnerable to an A because of her unmet need for conversation. She wasn’t aware of her own weakness and vulnerabilities and therefore develped those feelings for Bod unintentionally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WS's who have E/A or P/A are to blame for going outside of M to get needs met. Period.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this but I feel if someone develop inappropriate feelings for someone else before they cross the boundaries into an EA or PA, no one is to blame as long as the people involved don’t ACT of their feelings.

Do you think there is a chance that we can reach some agreement now after you’ve read this post? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 03, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>

Just wanted to add my opinion. I kinda agree with Suzet and I kinda agree with Stunned Dad.

Sure it is possible for feelings of love to develop innocently. You spend time with a friend of your spouse and they are not doing anything to try and hit on you or come on to you, yet you develop feelings for them. Ok, no harm, no foul.

However, at some point, you will realize that your feelings go beyond friendship. At that point is where you can transition from it being innocent to allowing boundaries to be crossed, intending to accept flattery or needs being met.

You can choose to face it, to tell you spouse what is going on, to make sure you do not spend time with that person anymore. Or, you do nothing, and allow the feelings to grow. And at some point, it is inevitable that the OP realizes you have feelings for them, or you take the step to tell them of your feelings.

So, can feelings develop innocently, sure. But the minute you realize it, the responsibility for what happens after that is totally yours.
Eric

how it’s possible that people can fall in love and develope inappropriate feelings without necessarily engaging in inappropriate and wrong activities and behaviour

suzet...the article itself speaks of the person..choosing not to tell their spouse...

I don't think my husband is aware of these feelings because I try to hide them, but they are in my heart.

husband doesn't KNOW how she feels...
whose fault is that??

and also though she didn't expect to fall in love <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

she did know a couple of things...

1. she chose not to tell her husband how she felt
2. she chose to let this OP meet these needs
3. she knew it was wrong..

ark

and again suzet the definition of love doesn't apply once it becomes so tainted in my book..

love isn't enough
love doens't justfiy a THING

so what's love got to do with anything...anyways...
love is not the end all die all answer that makes it all better...

O.K let's see if I can explain.....LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">atrueheart,

I understand what you're saying (no A has yet occurred, Harley is saying how to avoid one, no sex needed for a person to think they're "in love"). Could you please elaborate on your statement that the boundaries for these two was crossed at an emotional level?

To get to the feeling or "in-love" there is personal/intimate relationship going on. IF it is not sexual....it is emotional. SO, to understand where that is crossed you have to be aware of your own feelings. If you feel a warm fuzzy~~you must think to yourself "this is not right", there is something going on here that FEELS a bit too comfy.


Is that the same as saying feelings of "in love" are beginning to occur? And if so, how could that be avoided - the *initial* feelings, not any followup activities.

Well I would say that ANY feelings you think you should be feeling for you H is a huge indication that something is wrong. We all have built in antenna's to tell us "HEY...your crossing a line here, this is getting a little too close". You have to listen to your feelings. Like I would tell my kids~~~ STOP-DROP-ROLL. So yes, the "friendship" would have to end. BEFORE anything got started.

I don't see that they have been intimate in conversation, so nothing to stop as far as that goes: He was just being friendly, and carried on conversations the way he would with almost anyone.

She was aware of her desire for conversation. She should have been talking to H instead. Your point is great here......she "fell in love with someone thru "friendly" conversation". I guess she was pretty weak to begin with.

I'm curious as to why you think they have been intimate in conversation. Perhaps this is where many WS and potential WS are similar - in their inability to see the moment a line has been crossed.

I guess because she is getting NO conversation with H any from OM would seem intimate to her??? Her line was crossed the first time she "felt" for this M. Friendship or not!

You are saying that when you allow your ENs to be met by someone of the opposite sex, then you are choosing to become vulnerable to feelings of "in love" with someone other than your spouse.

Yes, that is what I was saying!


I'm cool with that. Obviously, however, you can't have no conversation with men, nor is it possible to keep all men from admiring your accomplishments, etc.


Your absolutely RIGHT~ it is NOT possible. But conversations with other males go like this with me. "hi" "how are you?" "how's your W and kids?" or girlfriend? VERY basic. NOTHING personal, never has been. I have my girlfriends for the REAL conversations. They are safe!

I'm thinking the difference in our thinking is that Suzet and I see the flow thusly:
friendship->"in love"->figure out which ENs are being met and ask H to meet them

whereas somehow you and others are able to see:
friendship->ENs being met->talk to H

How do you tell normal conversation, admiration, etc. from ENs being met, other than the initial glimmerings of that "in love" feeling?

Well, I think first indication is what you call admiration!! compliments/crossing the safety lline. You know the comments. The ones only your H should be giving. You look beautiful, your in great shape, your H is lucky to have a W like you. These are all RED alerts for me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did this help:? I hope so!!

Blessings,
Atruheart