Does anyone know of any information on "serial cheaters"? Any books, websites or just plain knowledge? I would really appreciate it.

Part of my story

Do you have contact with your OC? Just curious

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

I don' have any real advice for you, but I think your WH has very real and serious character issues. It is extremely unlikely that he will truly change without an extreme effort and daily struggle. You unfortunately seem like a woman who had rationlaized a good part of your husbands behhaviors....perhaps this is what you had to do to stay married. It is understandable. I feel sorry for you, I really do. In all likelihood you will continue to live this nightmare over and over again. I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear but with serial cheaters, this is what you usually get. Yes ofcourse counseling and reading the Harley book are a start, but ****sigh*****, I think.............well you know what nsane on secoem thought ....I am going to refrain from saying anything to upset your "recovery". Good luck and I hope you make it in your new "recovered" marriage. I hope that your husband can change, but keep in mind, that he is a chronic cheater and that is probably woven into his character fiber. Those things are very very very hard to change (if not impossible). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

hmmm, depends on what you call contact! It isn't NC in the sense of MBs. We started out with contact, but it became frustrating when it wasn't reciprocated on a regular basis. The child is German and the first 5 years we were in the US. For four years we were in Germany and never got to see her, "not a good time" the excuse. We didn't want to push visitation rights due to another legal problem with the German system. We are again in Germany and have tried to initiate a visit and got a "maybe sometime...."

Yea, that's not really what I wanted to hear. I am sure I did/do rationalize his affairs. The first one, we were apart for a year, then later he acted like a single guy and I let him get by with it til I had proof, then more while he was deployed. My problem is that I've always sympathyzed with both sides of a problem. I can understand why things happen. But I am not saying that I condone it, maybe that's what he thought. We never really dealt with any of the previous affairs. It was mostly my "getting over" them. It also has been 8 years. We are dealing with this one, so that is why I have hope. But I still have fear since he cheated in our early years. Which one is stronger? Which one should I listen to? I struggle with this every day. That's why I'd like to learn more about serial cheaters.

nsane,

My H had two affairs and it was suggested to me to read the book, "When Your Lover is a Liar."

True serial cheating indicates there is an underlying character issue that allows the person to partake in multiple affairs. I was worried (even though we had been married 15 years before he first afffair) that my H would turn out to be a serial cheater. I understand your concern.

But we also learned that we didn't not address the issues in our relationship after affair no. 1 and that left a huge open space for our marriage to be vulnerable to another affair. I don't feel that a third affair is likely because we picked apart the problems and tackled them together.

Reading "WYL is a Liar" helped me to see that my husband did not fit the bill of a serial cheater, who must have the ability to lie as easily as one drinks a glass of water and feel no pangs of conscience about it. Perhaps it might help you make your decision, too.

~ Snow

Well, trust me, there are plenty plenty of women on here who have taken back serial cheaters and "recovered" their marriages...so they say at least. I suspect someone will hopefully be able to give you the advice that you crave. I also hate to tell you that the 8 years without your Wayward Husband cheating were probably 8 years really of you not finding out. Many people here swear by MB and endure unfathomable pain and devestation in the belief that these principles will bring home their WS and "recover" their marriages....and it appears that many times this does work for them. Sometimes, I don't really know if this is possible with people like your husband. It is almost like alcoholism or worse. He is what he is, a serial cheater. I believe that people can change, I really do, but I think it takes every strain of their "being" to do this and even though I don't know your husband, I am guessing just from reading your posts, that he is not doing this. Just my .02.

Do your other children know of their sister? Does your family know? How have you handled this all through the years?

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> nsane,

My H had two affairs and it was suggested to me to read the book, "When Your Lover is a Liar."

True serial cheating indicates there is an underlying character issue that allows the person to partake in multiple affairs. I was worried (even though we had been married 15 years before he first afffair) that my H would turn out to be a serial cheater. I understand your concern.

But we also learned that we didn't not address the issues in our relationship after affair no. 1 and that left a huge open space for our marriage to be vulnerable to another affair. I don't feel that a third affair is likely because we picked apart the problems and tackled them together.

Reading "WYL is a Liar" helped me to see that my husband did not fit the bill of a serial cheater, who must have the ability to lie as easily as one drinks a glass of water and feel no pangs of conscience about it. Perhaps it might help you make your decision, too.

~ Snow </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Snowbelle:

I have a queston for you. Ok, so how many affairs does it take to be a serial cheater? I am just curious. I can probably forgive a one time indescretion, but not MULTIPLE. Your husband ONLY cheated TWO TIMES (affairs, or occurences?), so what would make him a serial cheater? Three ??? I am just trying to understand your rationalization here I really am. Teach me.

Thank you for the advise Snow. I truely appreciate it. I would like to think that is the same of my husband. I see pain in his eyes when we discuss it, he cries for me when I cry, he shows remorse and has told me the truth. And...

LM- He confessed to an affair that I didn't know about (occurred 8 years ago). LM, what other traits of a serial cheater do you think there are?

Our children don't know about the OC. My family knows although it is still a "secret". I have only spoken to my sisters about it. In the beginning I asked myself if I wanted to stay in this situation, my H having OC. It was very hard at first because contact with OC meant contact with OW. But because contact was so intermitent, and she married someone shortly after, it got easier. It's been so long, I can't really say more than that. Every once in awhile when paying CS it dredged up old feelings. I feel like it is from an old life. But that life has come back to haunt me due to our current state of affairs (pun not intended! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am just trying to understand your rationalization here I really am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure I can answer for her and what I feel also, the other affairs were never dealt with!

<small>[ November 07, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: nsane ]</small>

Lemonman,

If a person killed twice, would that automatically make them a serial killer?

Not necessarily.

Would it make them a good bet to be partners with for life?

Probably not.

My husband was nothing but faithful for 15 years. I so trusted him that even though I knew there was "something fishy" going on with OW #1 that I agreed to let him return to his hometown where she would be because I believed in him SO MUCH. I truly thought that if push came to shove he would prove himself to be the man I had known him to be for over 15 years. He had earned my trust.

Alas, he broke that trust and blew it big time.

I grudingly gave him a second chance because of our prior 15 years and several children. But we didn't work on the problems that broke down that trust between us. We didn't decisively address what had happened to this man who did not stray for 15 years of his marriage and then did. We chalked it up to stress and mid-life crisis. But it was more than that, deeper. We just didn't scrape into the flesh of the beast deep enough to find out.

The little scraping we did, however, left a gaping wound to fester. We skirted the real issues. Our relationship continued to deteriorate and affair no. 2 happened. looking back now I can sincerely say it should have been no surprise.

But we learned a lot the second time around. We took the problems head on and dissected them together. We uncovered the demons that put the whole thing into play and we laid them to rest.

Do either of us think those demons are gone forever? No way. But we do believe they are severely incapacitated and not likely to rear their ugly heads again.

Does that help?

~ Snow

P.S. To answer your other inquiry, OW # 1 was an old high school buddy. Long-distance EA for four months, followed by a one-night PA, then continued EA via email and phone here and there over the next five years, when affair no. 2 took place. OW #2 was a co-worker. That affair had lasted nearly six months and H was breaking it off when I busted them.

You know nsane in all fairness to you I don't really think it is fair for me to answer this. In MY MIND (this is my opinion only), the fact that your WH did cheat MULTIPLE times (and very recently to boot ), AND has an OC, and you LIVE with the "secret" (what a horrible burden to live with) is all really just glaring. Having to deal with an OC must have been so painful, yet you did this and "hid the secret". WHY??? This is probably part of the problem. Your WH has never really had any accountability for his actions. You forgive each of his discretions and now that he is caught again, you think he is a changed man because he "cries" when he sees you said. I imgaine he lives with incredible guilt in what he has done to you MULTIPLE times in your life.

Let me ask you a question. Does it really matter what snowbelle, or me or anyone says about serial cheaters? You have obviously the capacity to "forgive" and move on from multiple betrayals, so in your mind (and from this board) you will find the encouragement to let your husband back into the marriage. I really wish you luck and happiness in this. Maybe your husband is a "changed" man, I hope that he is.

Do your children or parents know of his betrayals of you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> Lemonman,

If a person killed twice, would that automatically make them a serial killer?

Not necessarily.

Would it make them a good bet to be partners with for life?

Probably not.

My husband was nothing but faithful for 15 years. I so trusted him that even though I knew there was "something fishy" going on with OW #1 that I agreed to let him return to his hometown where she would be because I believed in him SO MUCH. I truly thought that if push came to shove he would prove himself to be the man I had known him to be for over 15 years. He had earned my trust.

Alas, he broke that trust and blew it big time.

I grudingly gave him a second chance because of our prior 15 years and several children. But we didn't work on the problems that broke down that trust between us. We didn't decisively address what had happened to this man who did not stray for 15 years of his marriage and then did. We chalked it up to stress and mid-life crisis. But it was more than that, deeper. We just didn't scrape into the flesh of the beast deep enough to find out.

The little scraping we did, however, left a gaping wound to fester. We skirted the real issues. Our relationship continued to deteriorate and affair no. 2 happened. looking back now I can sincerely say it should have been no surprise.

But we learned a lot the second time around. We took the problems head on and dissected them together. We uncovered the demons that put the whole thing into play and we laid them to rest.

Do either of us think those demons are gone forever? No way. But we do believe they are severely incapacitated and not likely to rear their ugly heads again.

Does that help?

~ Snow

P.S. To answer your other inquiry, OW # 1 was an old high school buddy. Long-distance EA for four months, followed by a one-night PA, then continued EA via email and phone here and there over the next five years, when affair no. 2 took place. OW #2 was a co-worker. That affair had lasted nearly six months and H was breaking it off when I busted them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SB:

Thank you for "teaching me". I am sincerely happy you are in recovery, I really am. I can see why it happened in your case. I can understand your taking him back becasue of the history and children, I am gald THAT THAT WAS THE RIGHT DECSION FOR YOU. We can agree to disagree on other certain matters. That is ok. Can I ask you a question. Are you 100% recovered form all of this. Will you ever be 100% trustful of your FWH? Will you ever live in 100% comfort that your FWH will be "true" to you. I don't think I could be any of those things. How about you?

Hi nsane,

I posted on your other thread, but you must have missed it...

My W had multiple A's during our first three years of M... so I guess that qualifies as her as former 'serial cheater'...

Mulitple A's are normally indicative of some deeper issue within the one that strays... NOT, IMHO, a lack of unmet ENs by the BS.

Your H needs to find out what issues are causing him to seek out relationships with other women. A good IC can help guide your H as he learns why he feels the need to stray.

I know that the issue of "he did it more than once..." is hard to deal with, but please understand that it's more about your H's issues and not your lack of providing EN.

MC is a must for you guys... it is possible to rebuild your M after multiple A's, but it will take a strong committment by both of you and lots of hard work.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> Lemonman,

If a person killed twice, would that automatically make them a serial killer?

Not necessarily.

Would it make them a good bet to be partners with for life?

Probably not.

My husband was nothing but faithful for 15 years. I so trusted him that even though I knew there was "something fishy" going on with OW #1 that I agreed to let him return to his hometown where she would be because I believed in him SO MUCH. I truly thought that if push came to shove he would prove himself to be the man I had known him to be for over 15 years. He had earned my trust.

Alas, he broke that trust and blew it big time.

I grudingly gave him a second chance because of our prior 15 years and several children. But we didn't work on the problems that broke down that trust between us. We didn't decisively address what had happened to this man who did not stray for 15 years of his marriage and then did. We chalked it up to stress and mid-life crisis. But it was more than that, deeper. We just didn't scrape into the flesh of the beast deep enough to find out.

The little scraping we did, however, left a gaping wound to fester. We skirted the real issues. Our relationship continued to deteriorate and affair no. 2 happened. looking back now I can sincerely say it should have been no surprise.

But we learned a lot the second time around. We took the problems head on and dissected them together. We uncovered the demons that put the whole thing into play and we laid them to rest.

Do either of us think those demons are gone forever? No way. But we do believe they are severely incapacitated and not likely to rear their ugly heads again.

Does that help?

~ Snow

P.S. To answer your other inquiry, OW # 1 was an old high school buddy. Long-distance EA for four months, followed by a one-night PA, then continued EA via email and phone here and there over the next five years, when affair no. 2 took place. OW #2 was a co-worker. That affair had lasted nearly six months and H was breaking it off when I busted them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SB:

Thank you for "teaching me". I am sincerely happy you are in recovery, I really am. I can see why it happened in your case. I guess I can understand your taking him back because of the history and children but I don't think I could ever "forgive and forget" essentially 5 and a half years of infidelity. DO I have that timeline right? , I am glad THAT THAT WAS THE RIGHT DECSION FOR YOU. For me I could NEVER do what you did and live with myslef. We can agree to disagree on other certain matters. That is ok. I may come off as an arrogant A-hole at times but I really mena well, I really do. The pain that people endure on here cripples me at times. I am humbled by what the human soul endures for what they belive in.

Can I ask you a question. Are you 100% recovered from all of this? Will you ever be 100% trustful of your FWH? Will you ever live in 100% comfort that your FWH will be "true" to you? I don't think I could be any of those things. How about you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I can understand your taking him back because of the history and children but I don't think I could ever "forgive and forget" essentially 5 and a half years of infidelity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One month after finding out about OW #1, I found they were in touch. Then it ended. Two years later a mutual friend of WH and OW #1 drove across the state to tell me that OW #1 and WH were in contact (OW#1 had sent them both the same joke and our friend noticed an addy for WH). I love that woman.

We got back into counseling and the emailing and phone calls stopped. Three years later, when our marriage was disintegrating at a fast rate, WH reinitiated contact with OW #1. She wasn't interested in a relationship, but they kept in regular touch (which would have sent me over the edge had I known).

Then WH and OW #2 started up. On the day that I busted them, guess what? The computer records I had uncovered showed that WH was in touch with OW #1 as well. Talk about a severe gut punch.

Like I said, LM, we both figured that was it. We were done for. Cooked. I would have never thought then that now, over two years later, that we would still be together and happy. We still have issues that we have to work on so we don't fall back into our old ways of relating.

Am I 100% recovered? No. Will I ever be? I hope so, but it isn't my goal. If I couldn't function on the 90-95% recovery I've made, I wouldn't stay. Thing is, I remain 100% sure of my husband's love for me and mine for him. And that is what keeps me here. That and the grace of God.

~ Snow

P.S. I don't think you are an arrogant a-hole. Stop putting yourself down or I will have to come over there and shake your little lemony head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I can understand your taking him back because of the history and children but I don't think I could ever "forgive and forget" essentially 5 and a half years of infidelity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One month after finding out about OW #1, I found they were in touch. Then it ended. Two years later a mutual friend of WH and OW #1 drove across the state to tell me that OW #1 and WH were in contact (OW#1 had sent them both the same joke and our friend noticed an addy for WH). I love that woman.

We got back into counseling and the emailing and phone calls stopped. Three years later, when our marriage was disintegrating at a fast rate, WH reinitiated contact with OW #1. She wasn't interested in a relationship, but they kept in regular touch (which would have sent me over the edge had I known).

Then WH and OW #2 started up. On the day that I busted them, guess what? The computer records I had uncovered showed that WH was in touch with OW #1 as well. Talk about a severe gut punch.

Like I said, LM, we both figured that was it. We were done for. Cooked. I would have never thought then that now, over two years later, that we would still be together and happy. We still have issues that we have to work on so we don't fall back into our old ways of relating.

Am I 100% recovered? No. Will I ever be? I hope so, but it isn't my goal. If I couldn't function on the 90-95% recovery I've made, I wouldn't stay. Thing is, I remain 100% sure of my husband's love for me and mine for him. And that is what keeps me here. That and the grace of God.

~ Snow

P.S. I don't think you are an arrogant a-hole. Stop putting yourself down or I will have to come over there and shake your little lemony head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps I will never quite understand how you could do what you do in recovering with your husband. That is not what is really important. I think (though we seem to disagree a lot.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), I am learning from you. A short time ago I could not have acknowledged that. There is a purpose for everything, and my time here may come to an end soon, but I have learned so damn much from this board and it's posters. I am truly truly humbled by what people have endured for the sake of their marriages. I think at times I should be "comforted" in only having to deal with my situation (as compared to others), but is has truly been an ego shattering, soul searching torture for me that I still struggle daily with. This board has provided me with a comfort that I have so much needed for these last days.

I haven't made a decision about my marriage. We are currently working on our marriage/relationship. I am searching for answers and yes, looking for hope. Is he going to cheat again? I don't know and probably won't know for many years if I stay. I know I can't fix him, he is responsible for his actions, as I am for mine.

He asked for IC but they wanted to start MC first. My focus has been on what would cause him to do this other than our EN not being met. He hasn't been able to answer this yet, and may not be able to for some time. In the meantime I am not going to sit around wondering ... what I am going to do with my life?. I want to find answers myself.

Thanks RIF90 & Snowbelle. I look forward to hearing from others with insight on serial cheaters.

<<Can I ask you a question. Are you 100% recovered form all of this. Will you ever be 100% trustful of your FWH? Will you ever live in 100% comfort that your FWH will be "true" to you. I don't think I could be any of those things. How about you? >>

I am the WH and I will admit that we are not 100% recovered . . . what percentage? 75%? 90%? I don't know. I can tell you that snowbelle and I have traveled "thousands of miles" on the journey of healing, and I have no desire for anyone but her.

As she stated, many problems in our marriage had developed and we left them unattended. We have finally taken the steps to face them head on.

Will she be able to trust me unequivocally? I hope so, but I would not expect it to happen in a day or two . . . it will probably take several more years--years of my proving myself to her.

In some ways our marriage is better than it was 22-years ago. We are closer, more mature, less naive, hopefully wiser . . . I hate the fact that it took us going through hell to find it, but through the tears and darned determination, we are back in the light of a new day . . .

Hi nsane,

My H was a serial cheater.

Serial cheaters can change but as others posted to you, they have to want to.

My H had multiple A's in his first M. His XW either did not know (hard to believe since one A lasted 12 years) or was in denial. So, H never had to suffer any consequences from his cheating.

Once the *in-love* newness wore off in our M, H was back to his cheating ways. I found out about the A's and was totally devastated. H got to see the pain he intentionally inflicted on another person. He watched me go from a beautiful, self-confident, successful woman to an ugly hysterical basket case that didn't want to leave the house.

H did not want to be that person any more , so he got help. H has changed his behavior, his thinking and his character.

Recovery is long and hard. The serial cheater has to work on himself before you guys can work on M recovery. We're at what...almost 17 months past d-day and we are just really starting to come together as a couple. You feel like you are working on your M all by yourself in the beginning...while the serial cheater is in IC to understand his issues and how he got to that place.

It's not easy but it can happen.

Take care.

sss

<small>[ November 08, 2004, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]</small>

sss

Thanks for your post. I guess what I'm also afraid of is time. Except for the last one, all of the affairs happened during our first 6/7 years of marriage and we married young. It had been 8 years since he cheated on me. I'm afraid to wait that long to see if he'll be able to recover. I'm also conflicted in how to treat this. Were the first ones mainly due to immaturity and the last one due to unmet needs? Is he a true serial cheater? Is it just because he wasn't ever truely held accountable for his past affairs and we never dealt with them together?

I knew it was going to be hard and a long road. But with my loss of trust, it's hard to put faith in the future. I do have hope though.