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I have been visiting this site for the past nearly five years. I have posted some threads and also received some helpful responses.
I am the WS and we are still struggling to recover from the disclosures of my past PAs. My BS(wife) is very distraught and may be she will never recover (that is what she continues to state for the past four years - The D Day). For which I hold myself fully responsible and repentant.
This morning, my wife posted a question to me to answer. I am some what at loss, and thus seek inputs from more experienced MBers.
Question:
What is the difference between "Making Love to your Spouse" and "Having Sexual acts with your OP"?
According to my wife, there is no differnce. However, I feel though in the physical plane it is same physical acts, but there are distinctive difference at mental and emotional level in these two above stated scenario. I welcome comments.
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<small>[ June 12, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>
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Ah, IMHO, "Having Sex" and "Making Love" is very different.
Making love is more than having sex.
You make love to a person you are emotionally connected to. Making love is a form of intimate communication. When you make love, you care that the other person feels loved and cared for. In making love you make the other person's need a priority.
Sex is an act of making love, yes, but without the emotional connection. A husband and wife can have sex but not make love. Can a man and a prostitute have sex and make love? I think not. When a man and a prositute have sex, it is only to serve the man's need for release. Unless of course, the man has fallen in love with the prostitute over time.
So, back to your question. It depends on how you see your OW, doesn't it? If you had loved her at the time of the A and she took place of your W in meeting your needs, were you making love or were you having sex? Or was it sheer pleasure of releasing tension, like going to the gym? Did you care for the OW like a person? What if you were having sex whilst your head is in a fog?
I am sorry that your wife hasn't healed from the As after four years. It must be very painful dragging that baggage for so many years. I wonder if she has a reason for wanting to know the difference between having sex and making love. I hope you will tread carefully in comforting her.
<small>[ June 06, 2004, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: Ruffled ]</small>
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ash, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> According to my wife, there is no differnce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does your wife believe that men "make love" to prostitutes???? I think this example makes the difference between "making love" and "Having Sexual acts with your OP" very clear. I'm not saying that OW are prostitutes, I'm just trying to give an example that will make the diffence clear. Going to prostitutes is fullfilling/living "fantasies" just as an affair is. How can two people make love when they don't even know all sides of another????? In an affair they have plain sex and it surely isn't "love making". They might think so but once they "wake up" and once they are out of the fog they will realize how far from "love making" it was. It was sneaky, full of lies and most of all, it was "so painfull" once it came out in the open. When you "Make Love" to someone, you KNOW it is right, you are happy and prowd about it. It will hurt no one. It will feel good and it will not cause pain to anyone. In an affair, it is plain and simply "BONKING!". It's lust and infatuation..........It's a "self-centered" act. I'd actually give it a new name for people having an affair. "MAKING PAIN AND AGONY!!!!!!" instead of what they might call "MAKING LOVE": take care bb <small>[ June 06, 2004, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>
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LoveMyEx, Ruffled & BlondBlossom,
Thank you for your prompt comments, opinion and observations. I tend to concur and support the opinions expressed by Ruffled and Blond Blossom.
Unless, a person falls-out of love and falls-in love with OP, the sexual union between such two persons, can not have the same level or type of feelings and emotional attachments, as between a married Spouse ( even if the WS got involved in PA at some point of time).
In cases, where such PAs are and/or were only occassional as was in my case( while I was out of town and alone and have never made any contact there after - the two nights PA in each case in 1981 & 1989), it is difficult to convince one's self that one develops special and tender feelings for such sexual partners as one harbours for their spouse. This statement should not be misconstrued to be demaning the OPs involved. These were consensual sexual acts between two adults and not forced or coerced. Without any commitments, attachments nor was continued thereafter.
I will of course, welcome more opinion and comments. Thank you once again.
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I don't believe the sex is always a very powerful and bonding thing... sometimes it's just sex. The intimacy that occurs is not at a set level but varies according to emotional investment of the people involved. Sometimes it's a wonderful, cathartic experience. Sometimes it's just sex.
That being said, if she is still carrying that baggage around after 4 years, perhaps you need to look at why. Is it really about the sex, or are there other issues at play here? Have you really helped her to heal from this? Or are there still needs of hers that you haven't learned to meet?
4-5 years ago I was the WS and my wife still carries issues about it. But the betrayal of my affair was tied into so many things that I'm not sure it's the sex she resents so much as all the other issues of the time that never got resolved. Have you two filled out the EN questionaires and done the work involved in creating a truly synergistic relationship? I think I may have just made up a new word. I think it's a cool word. Perhaps I should finish my coffee before I go posting to people.
dewt
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BUMP!!!!
LOOKING FORWARD TO MORE INPUTS ON MY QUESTION? ANY MORE OPINION, COMMENTS OR OBSERVATIONS?
THANKS.
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your time line... ASH WS-55, BS-54. M-29 D-28 & S-24 "SEEKING FORGIVENESS My BS(wife) is very distraught and may be she will never recover (that is what she continues to state for the past four years - The D Day). ASH, with all due respect you got way bigger fish to fry than this philosphical debate that is really just a powerstruggle in futility..... that you took the bait on.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You can't win at this question... AND it serves no purpose... there is no "right" answer for your wife... ther is no "answer" that will satisfy.. you say black...she'll answer white... you say toomato....she say tomattto.... four years and you are still carrying the brunt of this type of stuff... For which I hold myself fully responsible and repentant. That's all you can do ash... if your wife continues to hold you captive and down over discrepencies that are four years past.. if your wife is "not able to move on"...which is her right to choose...but not her right to hold you captive to that choice... then we are now at a point that she is getting some type of payoff ...keeping you guilty years past the infidelity.... with the understanding Ash that you have done the work you needed to do...to understand the wrongness of your actions to come to never be that person again that could do such a thing etc... have you done that work. are you accoutable in actions and word... Why does you wife choose not to get over this and move on.. what do you believe her payoff is... those are the questions YOU should be asking... those are the questions SHE needs to answer... does she post here... ARK
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I agree with Ruffle’s definition that “making love” is a form of intimate communication with a person you are emotionally connected to and that sex is an act of making love, but without the emotional connection. I don’t think sex during an affair can be compared with sex with a prostitute, unless it was an ONS or PA without any emotional connection at all. In other words, if sex just happens for the sake of having sex and to release sexual tension. Therefore, I agree with Ruffled that your definition will depends on how you see your OW: Did you have loving feelings for her at the time of the A and did she need some of your emotional needs? Or was sex with her just sheer pleasure of releasing tension and did you just “use” her to release your tension? If the latter was the case I think it will be correct to say you was just “having sexual acts” with the OW...
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does you wife choose not to get over this and move on.. what do you believe her payoff is... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark, with all due respect......I think the "choosing" of ANYTHING is not the question in this example! The B/S sometimes CAN NOT get over an A sometimes ~plain and simple.....for reasons NOT their choosing. It's really not the B/S's fault or choice. Some just can never deal with it. That is why even God allows a M to end after a S CHOOSES to have an A. He knew some were not made to withstand the betrayal of an A.......sadly <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Some hearts bleed more than others....some heal so much slower. A lot DOES depend on the actions of the W/S but sometimes no matter how hard one trys they CAN NOT get over an A. Blessings, Atruheart Oh and my answer to your question: THERE IS A BIG diff. between the TWO!!! my H and I do both!!! and YES I love him and he loves me. Making love is when you are in a certain state of "mind"....in my opinion. Sex.....anyone can have! and when I'm not in the most loving mood.....I feel like I'm doing just that "having sex". Emotions are what make the diff. in MY VIEW. If my H had an extremely intense EA/PA I don't know if I could EVER recover from that!!! To me (W) It is much easier dealing with the p/a than a e/a. Perhaps your W views your A as EA?
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Ash, I want to add something to my previous response: If there is an emotional connection during an A, the BIG difference between “making love” with the spouse and “making love” with the OP is that sex with the OP is wrong, a sin, deceitful, full of lies and painful for all parties involved. Sex with spouse is beautifull, "clean" and good & right in God's eyes and not hurtfull to anyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <small>[ June 07, 2004, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Suzet ]</small>
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... and what's good and right in God's eyes need not be boring either! Making love is never more wonderful when it is honest, loving and right!
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Suzet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (I'm not jumping on you, so please don't get me wrong for what I have written) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don’t think sex during an affair can be compared with sex with a prostitute, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I wrote, I wasn't saying that OW are "prostitutes. I'm only saying that "egoistic" expectations are involved in an affair. (both sides are simply expecting their needs to be fullfilled) They are maybe not aware of this but what else would you call it??? I would even say that there are probably men that go to "prostitutes" with "emotional feelings". But that's another subject. I've talked about this with my husband a few times and he told me the following. If he had really "knew" OW, he wouldn't of been able to "feel what he felt". It might of felt like "making love" but due to the fact that OW had planned the whole affair before my husband even knew her shows how "egoistic" the complete act was. When you make love to someone, I would say, you "know who the person is" otherwise I don't understand why you would call it "making love". To call it "making love" I believe that honesty and loyalty must be involved. Otherwise I'd say it's lust and infatuation. If it was "True Love" I don't think it would cause so much pain and trouble and I don't think that the affairees would have any problem at all to "simply" get divorced and marry the OP. It's when this "fantasy" that the truth comes to the surface. An affair is "cake eating" nothing more and nothing less. Only the "pleasant" sides of the affairees come to the surface. My husband even admitted to me that he doesn't have a clue "who" the OW really is. He only saw what he wanted to see and he didn't want to even think about the other sides of her. (they met for 3 months) I admit, this isn't a long time but they wanted to "give up" everything for what they believed was "true love". Of course they believed that when they were "bonking" that it was "Making Love" but now my husband says it's rediculous. It's absolutely Bull.............. He was taking what made him feel good and OW was taking what made her feel good. He feels so low about himself when he thinks back. How could anyone say that they "made love" in OW + OWH bed???? (it was actually still warm from OWH) How could this be "Making love"???? Please explain this to me. Do you honestly believe that people having an affair and "bonking" in OW + OWH bed is even near to "Making love?" It was lust and infatuation, nothing more and nothing less. He was "expecting" this and if he wouldn't of gotten it, the "flurry" feeling would of been gone just as fast as it was when the affair was discovered. My husband even said that he was "Metally Retarded" during his affair! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> His head was stuck some place, just not on his shoulders. Imagine, OW told him she "hated cats"! She had 13 of her own............. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> That too is another subject. I just don't believe that "affairees" honestly "Make love". Even if they believe so............. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> take care bb
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Blondblossom, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I understand what you are saying and agree especially with the following you’ve posted: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> To call it "making love" I believe that honesty and loyalty must be involved. Otherwise I'd say it's lust and infatuation. If it was "True Love" I don't think it would cause so much pain and trouble and I don't think that the affairees would have any problem at all to "simply" get divorced and marry the OP. An affair is "cake eating" nothing more and nothing less. Only the "pleasant" sides of the affairees come to the surface.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People often confuse true love with “in love” feelings. It’s not the same thing. TRUE love involves action (as described in 1 Corinthians 13) and have nothing to do with our emotional reactions (feelings) towards other people. I’ve posted about this on a topic I’ve started last week. Take care too, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Suzet
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Suzet, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I'm happy that you didn't misunderstand me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> take care bb
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Question:
What is the difference between "Making Love to your Spouse" and "Having Sexual acts with your OP"?
According to my wife, there is no differnce. However, I feel though in the physical plane it is same physical acts, but there are distinctive difference at mental and emotional level in these two above stated scenario. I welcome comments.
Here is my comment.
You are in a lot of trouble.
You cannot deny your wife the validity of ~her opinion~ on this matter.
If your W believes the sex act with another human is sacred ground .... yet, you are argueing the sex act is not sacred ....
LOOK at where you have positioned yourself!
If you argue the sex acts with another person were NOT sacred... that means you do not view sexual union as a sacred thing.
And this makes your sexual union with your W suspect. (in her eyes)
How can your wife feel clean and sacred when she has sex with you .... when she knows you do not view the sex act as sacred?
Ash ... what you have done with your affair is dirty an act that your wife feels is sacred.
What has been revealed by your A, is a very different set of values between your W and yourself.
Think about an (imaginary) object you own that you might consider so valuable, so special, that you only want it to be touched by the one you love and trust .... (like a baseball signed by Babe Ruth)
Now think of the one you love and trust taking that special Babe Ruth baseball, and allowing the kids in the sand lot use it for batting practice....
THAT'S how your wife feels about making love to you. You are a Babe Ruth baseball.
And you, the husband she loves and trusted to keep that specialness between the two of you ... you took that Babe Ruth baseball... spit on it, and got it all dirty.
You took a vow NOT to do this ... because sex is so special.
How should she feel now?
Pep
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I'm going to read into this a bit more...I'm guessing that your W is using *your* wording when she asks you this question.
Have you tried to minimalize your R with the OP as just a sex act? I'm guessing you did. She is a smart lady and has probably been waiting for you to own up to your emotional involvement with the OP.
Time for a serious talk with your loving W. Tell her you will answer any question honestly ...AND THEN DO IT...even if you think it will hurt her feelings. Tell her you don't want to hurt her, but you will answer her.
I don't know which is worse. Thinking that my H is lying to me about the emotional connection he made with the OP to save his b*tt, or that my H could engage in a callous sex act with another person and not feel anything...
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How do you explain the difference between the lewd, profane, and obscene of cheating; and the sacred, clean, and eternally warming love of marital intimacy of two people who love and respect each other. Jeffery R. Holland, former university president at Brigham Young University gave a presentation to his students about that topic. Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments He wrote a book developing this topic further, which should be available via Amazon or via www.deseretbook.com
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Kayla...
EX'lent link!
I haven't had time to read it complelely...
but I'll go back later to fully digest.
I hopw ASH takes the time to read your link.
I especially liked "fragmentation" of our souls and creating counterfeit intimacy. (screwing OP with our bodies ... rather than making love with our spouses)
Pep
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Ark, with all due respect......I think the "choosing" of ANYTHING is not the question in this example!
It's really not the B/S's fault or choice. Some just can never deal with it. That is why even God allows a M to end after a S CHOOSES to have an A. He knew some were not made to withstand the betrayal of an A.......sadly
Well there is a some sort of decision that must reached if that after four years you are still asking your spouse these type of questions...
that one must decide that they can not or can get past it...
and if they can't...which I said they have the right to decide...or CHOOSE they can't get past it..after trying ...they should divorce their spouse...because their lives become nothing of a partnership...but enemies ...
Betrayed spouses...that choose reconcilliation...
yep that's a choice....
need to face their own responsibility in that choice....
cause they can choose divorce...
there are red flags in this post...posing this type of questions four years post affair..
people become accustomed to thinking and feeling certain ways...and it can be difficult to let go of these thoughts and feelings...but blessed are those that can do so...
the question is a no winner for ash...as pep pointed out...
if Ash answers the cup is half full she wanted the half empty answer..
if Ash answers the cup is half empty she wanted the half full answer...
four years post his last affair...
at what point is enough ...
the question is irrelevent..
the time line of the question...very relevent...
If someone can not get over an affair...
they should divorce...
ark
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