Hey MBers. I've been gone for a while. I've missed you all. Vacation was nice but I'm glad to be home.

FOW called and hung up on the last week. I called right back and confronted her. She is my H's boss and they are upper ranking NCO's...what should I do?

I won't allow her to harrass me like this. I've been low key this entire time. I haven't tried to shake things up or cause problems and I could have.

HELP ME!

Where's Mortarman?!?!?!?!

WAT any advice.

Roughroad you were military right? What do I do?

I'd like to back over her in my driveway but that is really not an option right now.

Hi HW - sorry to her the witch made an "appearance."

I'm not in the military (you know this, but not necessarily others reading this), but my first reaction is for your H to report the "harassment" to her boss. Yep, he'd be stepping outside the "chain of command" but she certainly is stepping outside the Code.

This assumes she called you intentionally, or didn't have a legit reason to call your H.

The more important question here is, "why is she still in a position of authority?" I know you have no control over that - assuming her superiors know her "history."

What I don't recommend is you doing ANYTHING to stoop to her level. Do not take matters into your own hands. Stay on the high ground.

WAT

I'd suggest you go up or outside the chain of command as well, however, since you are in recovery, POJA with your H.

Here's an old post with a link inside it about the regs of Military adultery:

Bluebird
Member
Member # 10047

posted December 17, 2001 10:38 AM
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I was an active du`ty Army officer for 5 years and my SIL is a LTC in the Air Force and is an attorney. The best place to get advice on this issue is from the Staff Judge Advocate General's (JAG) office on base. Adultery is punishable under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Article 134 simply prohibits conduct which is of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, or conduct which is prejudicial to good order and discipline. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is a federal statute passed by Congress defining adultery to be a crime.
Adultery, as a military offense, is difficult to prosecute (legally) for several reasons. There are three "Elements of Proof" for the offense of Adultery in the Military:

(1) That the accused wrongfully had sexual intercourse with a certain person;

(2) That, at the time, the accused or the other person was married to someone else; and

(3) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

Element #2 is usually pretty easy for the government to prove. There is normally sufficient written evidence to prove whether or not someone is legally married. (Many folks will be surprised to learn that in the military, a single person can be charged with the crime of adultery).

Element #1 can be very hard to prove. Remember, a court martial (like civilian court) requires *proof* beyond a reasonable doubt. Proof of sexual intercourse normally requires photographs, a confession of one of the parties involved, an eye-witness, or other legally admissible proof. The mere fact that someone stayed over at another individuals house, or even slept with them in the same bed is not proof of sexual intercourse.

Element #3, in many cases, can be the most difficult item to prove. The government must show that the individual's conduct had some direct negative impact on the military. This normally would include cases of fraternization (officer & enlisted) or a relationship with another military member, or a military spouse.

(to read MCM paragraph 60 go here >>> http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/bladulterydefinition.htm )

This officer, be he a LT or an LTC, has received numerous hours of instruction on military justice and standards of conduct. If this officer can't behave in an appropriate manner, then he needs to get out. Being a LT doesn't matter. If he can't have the integrity to keep his fly zipped around married women, what will his integrity be when it comes to making decisions in combat or for the welfare of his troops? It is obvious that this type of selfish, arrogant behavior has no place in military service.

The number of Air Force courts martial for adultery rose from 20 in 1986 to 67 ten years later. Most adultery prosecutions have resulted in guilty verdicts. In addition to the Elements of Proof, the "Explanation" section of paragraph 62 of the Manual for Courts Martial (MCM) now requires that cases of adultery be handled at the lowest appropriate level. This requirement, along with the included list of factors a commander is supposed to use to investigate an allegation of adultery, is fairly new. It was added in 1998 (after the Kelly Flynn case). Partially because of Kelly Flynn, (and possibly because of the Commander-in-Chief's situation with Monica Lewinski), then Secretary of Defense William Cohen spear-headed the change. This means that most cases of alleged adultery will normally be handled by informal, or administrative means, rather than by court martial or article 15 (nonjudicial punishment). Unless, of course, there are extenuating circumstances, such as fraternization or sex with a minor.

This does not mean, however, that service members are free to shack up with whomever they please. Commanders have a lot of discretion when it comes to administrative procedures, and administrative actions (such as reprimands, denial of promotions, performance report remarks, etc.) are not governed by the relatively strict legal requirements of the UCMJ or MCM.

Having been an active duty Army officer, I have no patience or sympathy for anyone in a leadership position behaving in this manner. You are held to high moral and ethical standards when you accept the honor of being commissioned as an officer in the Armed Forces. The Air Force has a mission to accomplish, and when you voluntarily come into the Air Force, you come into it on their terms. You’re not free to do everything you’re free to do when you’re a civilian. You give up a lot of the liberties that civilians enjoy, and that’s part of what military service entails.

At least the military puts some teeth into punishing adulterers if it is discovered but it can't be discovered if your son does not report it! I certainly think reporting it to the officer's commander is a first step but, wow, you have to have some proof.

Hope this helps,

Bluebird

I am with WAT and Lor here go up or outside the chain of command. Document everything that is said or done so that you have accurate dates and times, it looks better and means that you are serious.

My x is AD USAF E-8 and was told by me point blank that if you move her in with you I will take your career (I didn't) He moved her from FL to UT, our daughters were do to visit and the seperation agreement that we had said no co-habitation will children are present. Anyways I wasn't allowing girls to visit, he came up with a thousand ways to have kids visit but not one of them was to move her out and that was the only acceptable answer. I gave him til Monday at 9 am at which time I was calling his first shirt. He e emailed first shirt and forwarded the e mail and reply to me. The first shirt basically told him to get her the H3## out of his house as he would side with me if need be. I spoke with the man later that day and thanked him for at least standing up for what was right. So things can happen if taken to the right person, do your homework and find out who that person would be in your H chain of command!!!

God's spped to you!

Dawn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HW - how 'bout doing this for me and the other U.S. taxpayers >>>> rat on her to get her out. I don't want my $$ going to an immoral woman in uniform using her influence on her subordinates - creating exactly the situation the Code is trying to prevent.

WAT

hey HW, of course been thinking about you often.
yes, i was in the military for 4 years plus 3 years of ROTC (i was an officer), my H (was enlisted) was in the military for 9 years and my dad (was enlisted) was in the military for 21 years. I can really speak to the fact that pretty much most military members regardless of branch of service are not that familiar on all the regulations as far as the UCMJ,etc. when the first enter active duty, unless the come from one of the military academies. i say this in relation to the comment said that LT's receive lots of training in these matters, not unless you are in the JAG core and usually you come in as a captain anyway.

i'm truly sorry for what has transpired, i didn't realize that she was higher ranking then your H or that they were both NCO's. it doesn't make a difference in reality but my mindset was that your husband was an offficer and that the OW was a lower ranking enlisted. i guess my question now is that when you say she is your H's boss do you mean his direct supervisor or that she is in his chain of command? when your H went to his commander and told what was going on, did he say who it was with? what was the commander's decision regarding the OW if he/she was told who the A was with? does your H know about what transpired recently? what are his thoughts?

bottom line is, someone is going to have to be "moved" either your H or the OW. I don't mean necessarily a transfer of assignment, even though that would be ideal. but more of a change of duty sections. from the information i have right now what i would recommend is as follows:
1) if your H doesn't know about the recent call, tell him and involve him
2) I would continue to go up and over the OW, there are always exceptions in the chain of command, especially when involving a supervisor.
3) my hesitancy about going to the leagal office or to the IG is that your H could get into trouble, hence i would like to know more specifically what your H's commander said and if he knows who the OW is.
4) my inclination is to go back to the commander who was told versus one step above the OW unless it is one in the same. but when/if it goes back to the commander it should be both of you and i would also prepare for the worst. i have no idea what would happen but i'm just saying that who knows what is going on in the OW's mind and she could come back and say that you and your H are harassing her. the commander has a lot of disgression in this cases and the like, in fact most regulations actually say that "at the disgression of commander" when it comes to how things are handled.
5) don't call, take calls, or talk to the OW. NC means for you to. i'm not sure if a NC can really be done for your H given the situation but even more the reason why someone needs to be shuffled. It might not be good for your H's career but you know that's not really the issue anymore is it? because should have, would have, could have. there are consequences to things we do and choose to do. this might just be one of the consequences for your H, just like my H being unfaithful is a consequence and/or symptom of me creating an environment in my M in which he felt he needed to do that.

i hope you get my point and i hope this has all made sense. if i were having a problem w/my supervisor, which is different than from someone who out-ranks me, then i would go to the next step in the chain w/out hesitancy. however, if they haven't been involved by this point, i would go to the person that was told previously (his commander or whomever). Once i did go to the person who was told before i would ask them specifically what your H needed to do from this point on, involve jag, just ignore calls, etc. other point is that this will start to affect others in the shop, if it hasn't already.

that's my opinion for what it's worth, prayers to you, RR

HW,

The advice you have ben given is good. I retired an Army E8 with 27 years service. Since most of my Army experience was in combat arms, I am not too up on serving with women.

I think the easist thing to do is transfer out of there. Sit down with your husband and decide where you both want to go, then request a transfer. If you want to stay at the same post, then at least go to a different unit. While not as effective, it will at least get him out from under the OW.

Let me answer some questions posted by all of you:

My H does know about the call because I told him as soon as it happened. He told me that there's no way she would do that and it was stupid to think such.

The number from post pulls up the same from all Post phones so I have no way of knowing who is calling. That is why I answered the phone. If I had known it was her I wouldn't have answered.

After I told my husband what she did and he said no way the phone rang again. It was another member of his team. This man said "I promise that was not me that just called and hung up." I just said then who was it. He hesitated and said I don't know but it wasn't me. I just told him I knew who it was. He asked if he could speak to my husband. I said sure and handed him the phone. I waited for a minute and then called her back. I said, this is 'Heroswife'. She immediately said, sorry about the hang up a minute ago and got all rude with me. I just told her to stop playing games and that I was too old to act like a teenager (I'm 28 and she in her mid 30's) and I told her I was positive she was too old as well. I told her she needed to be concentrating on her job and not playing pranks.

So I found out yesterday that my husband called her and asked her why she did that. He told her he didn't appreciate it and said it was very unprofessional. She agreed and apologized.

The person my husband spoke to earlier was her boss. There are only 7 of people on this team. The report to OW and she reports to another woman. Her direct report is who my H spoke to earlier.

I'm thinking I need to call her (the OW's boss).

What do I say? I'll be calm but I"m not sure the best approach.

Rough, did I get all of your questions?

Oh and WAT...I completly agree with you. I'll add this if I haven't already added it to another thread. I found out on Mother's Day that she is already having another relationship with another married man in this same team. He's the one that called me back after she hung up on me. So right there show's impact to other team members.

I want her fired but I can't really do anything right now without impacting my H's career. He's paid enough of a price for his mistake. I'll make sure he does not suffer anymore for this. I love him and he greatly regrets this. It's killing him now.

HW,

My wife and I are both AD USAF. Both been in for 15 years. I understand that you picked up the phone when she called but I wouldn't call her boss. You have been around the Army enough to know that dependents and their actions are the responsibility of the member.

You said you H had talked to OW's boss. Let that be enough for now. When/if she calls again tell your H and let him get things going from his end. I seriously doubt that anyone would get fired or even lose a stripe if this came out. Maybe a writted or verbal warning but probably nothing "official" that would be entered into the record. It might put a halt to their chances of promotion while stationed where you are until you PCS.

You are kinda in the same sitch as me. I didn't want to "blow the whistle" on my W's A but I did talk to my commander about what was going on. We had that kind of relationship where I could discuss tings off the record. I wanted the affair to stop but had a hard time sacrificing my wifes career and possibly our family's future to get it to stop.

Hope this helps....

God Bless

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

You are right I've been around long enough to know what could happen. I know that hearing from an irate wife wouldn't do a whole lot of good for anyone.

I have remained calm and tried to handle the all as level headed as possible. I do realize that I have no voice as far as the military is concerned. BUT...that's a big BUT...I have a great deal of respect from people (in and out of the military) and I have been an excellent military spouse for the last 10 years. That's my way of saying if I wanted to I have the ear of people that would be willing to do just about anything to help me out. I haven't played these cards. I don't want to either. I honestly think that if presented in a calm rational manner I could the the SM to see where this started, where it went and where I could possibly go with this if I decided to.

It sickens me that I have friends in graves that were killed wearing the same uniform she puts on everyday. It sickens me.

I called an old friend today to discuss. He offered help and support. He knows all parties involved at this point. He recommended that I contact the SM off the record. I have her home number and just explain things and request a duty move.

This brings me way back to WAT's first suggestion to me about 6 months ago...get out of there now!

I just don't want to hurt his career. I know you say they probably wouldn't get a slap on the wrist but I know that is not the case with this situation.

i think all my questions were asked for the most part. still don't know if you actually talked to the OW's boss or not as well as your H (or if it was at the same time) and most importantly if they know that it is OW whom your H had a R with.

does your H want to have a "career" in the military? if he does but but but but.....then i think that needs to be considered. there are lots of veteran's out there who are produly serving outside of the military in other ways and maybe they are not active duty anymore because of what their family means to them. i'm not trying to speak for anyone or say that if they do "this or that" then they are better person. Only that if your husband is only wanting to finish out the length of his enlistment then to me that answers a lot of the questions to the possiblities of what could happen.

i believe you mentioned in another post that you guys did see if you could PCS and that wasn't an option. what about a PCA or like was said just a change of duty section? my dad, my H, and I were all AF so i'm not sure how it works in the army. maybe not doing anything now is the best. please do a POJA w/your H that he won't call her no matter what, even if it's to ask why she called because she is getting her fix of your H and exerting control and you can't let her do this. if it's someone who is really needing to call you and you are not sure who it is then just don't answer the phone and if they need to they can leave a message and you can call right back. if you are able to hear them leave a message then you can pick up the phone right away.

it's somewhat easy to tell someone else what they should be doing so please don't take what i say the wrong way. i'm basically just throwing stuff out there and hope that it helps even if it's to say "well i'm definitely not going to do that." i just feel that this is going to be a continued problem until someone "moves" even though you guys are doing great in your recovery, your H is over the OW, it's still in your face unfortunately. but there are others out there who have faced similar situations (not able to get away from the OW) and maybe they can give you better suggestions/advice then i can.

continued prayers to you, RR

Rough -

You are 100% correct. I pretty much made him call her that day. I told him if he had a pair he'd pick up the phone and tell her what a lunatic she was for acting this way. In doing this I made him have contact with her. He didn't want to but I made him feel so poorly about what she did that he called her.

My H told me in the beginning that there was no way he could leave here. I know now that that was wa lie as you and Mortarman told me back then.

I know he can leave here if he just says "I want to leave." It won't be easy but it can be done.

you know i really used to like being right and i still like being right about most things. but sometimes it's sad to be right in situations where there is real pain in matters of the heart.

i think (JMO), if your H doesn't want to transfer (assingments or duty sections), then you just have to keep doing what you're doing for as long as you can. you've hit another bump in this "rough road" and you know what to do the next time if this should happen again. the beauty of it is who knows what God has in store for you and your H or even for this OW. maybe something will come about that she will have to move, especially if she's involved w/another MM. maybe your H will also come more around to wait he needs to do as well. i'm not saying that he isn't only when you have to weigh things against each other most of the time we need to not think of how things will affect us but how they affect others.

i don't really think it set you back in recovery of your M (maybe just a little) but more in your own recovery. you have got what it takes to make this work for you and for your M maybe just be more cautious for a little while longer. you guys are still doing great. i'm glad you still think of MB as well as me and my situation. it never hurts to re-read verses in the bible so read the verses that i have in my signature line. as always, prayers to you.

Well, I've decided that by getting upset over what she is doing is giving her some control over my emotions. I am going to try to move forward by feeling really sorry for her and seeing her actions as a cry for help.

does that make sense. I'm of course going to ignore her completely. I'll do this as much as I can and then if it becomes too much for me I'll revisit the situation.

so how are things going with you Rough? What thread has your latest update?