Pep, you suggested on my other post that W may not know how bad she is hurting me. Is that really possible? If the answer is yes, then perhaps I haven't done all I can to improve my situation. I'd be glad to provide any further information you may need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong> Pep, you suggested on my other post that W may not know how bad she is hurting me. Is that really possible? If the answer is yes, then perhaps I haven't done all I can to improve my situation. I'd be glad to provide any further information you may need. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi...

Ask her.

"Wife, I would like to know something... Are you aware of how deeply I am hurt when you do this ... ?" (name specific CURRENT behavior)

"Have I made you aware of how unhappy I am with the way our relationship CURRENTLY stands?"

"Are you interested in learning the depth of my hurt and my dis~ease about what is CURRENTLY going on?"

Just be straight forward.

Stay current.

Own your feelings.

Don't make your feelings her responsibility. (ie; Don't say things like "You make me feel awful.")

But do make her responsible for her behavior and for caring about you and how her behavior effects you.

Own your responsibility to make your feelings known.

Do not expect her to guess or be aware without a direct honest approach.

Pep

<small>[ June 08, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

woe

Tickled silly that you are re-evaluating your sitch. Listen to Pep! Golden advice!

Remember the famous Ann Lander's remark. "No one can use you any more than you allow yourself to be used."

Now if I could only get my FWW to believe that!

Best wishes

SD

Thanks Pep and SD. That sure seems simple enough. Looks like good stuff. I will have that discussion and advise results in a day or two.

WOE

WOE

For now... you are ONLY gathering information as you plant seeds in your W's mind that all is not peachy-keen with you.

Use this question-answer time to gain information about her state of mind... When she responds to you ... watch her body language as well as listening to her verbal responses.

If she moves closer to you physically when she answers ... or moves further away from you physically ....
this may be more significant than the actual words she answers you with.

Watch her face as she talks... is she showing concern or irritation? Is her face soft and relaxed or tense and hard looking?

Pay attention. Gather data.

Pep

Pep, seems like you have a little Psych background. This is very insightful and I appreciate it. I have read "never be lied to again" so I can pay attention to the "tells" that you mentioned. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on what I observe. I will come back to you on this thread. Thanks for keeping an eye out for me.

WOE

SD, or as my wife says (but doesn't adhere to at least in my case), "you teach people how to treat you". I really do have myself to blame for the enabling part of this. Mind boggling that I could repeatedly serve drinks to this man thinking I'm doing the right thing regarding her reputation. Boy did she exploit that. Slow and steady wins the race.

WOE

Pep, here is the little bit that transpired. I first asked her if she had any doubt as to where I go when I tell her I'm going out with a customer of mine. She said sometimes, so I told her I don't want her to and played a message from the man on my cell and advised her of the password if she ever wanted to check. I am trying to be proactive and remove doubt because we both keep everything to ourselves.

I then said that I know me being on MB forum hurts her but that is not my intention. And added just like your phone calls to OM hurt me even though you don't want to hurt me. She responded, a little less defensively than usual,
"I'm not calling much anymore". This is very true and again the EA is fairly dead now.

She also told me that she needed to get used to the "new me" and that there has been a lot of hurt in the past. I responded on "both sides" to which she agreed. The defensive shield was noticeably absent (no attempt to justify what she has done or been doing). She then clearly wanted to get out of the conversation and got up to get her day underway. Before she left, we kissed - hugged etc. all very normal behavior in this otherwise abnormal situation.

While she has been through a lot of pain over the years that go well beyond my behavior to include friends as well as natural disasters, I don't think that explains the A. It seems more related to self esteem issues. But I think we're improving in this area.

The other thing that I think I need to understand is that there never will be any complete acknowlegement by her of the pain she caused. Perhaps I need to let go of my selfish need for that. But by the same token I don't want to bury this alive and I need her to understand that A's are not in the least bit glamorous. I'm not sure she understands that yet so I would like to try to gradually show her some posts here and maybe lure her into this party we're having here everyday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WOE

I am trying to be proactive and remove doubt because we both keep everything to ourselves.

I like "proactive". Just the word it's self is so optimistic.

I then said that I know me being on MB forum hurts her but that is not my intention.

It might have been better to ask her if this is true.... don't assume you know how she feels about ~anything~ ... ask her... you'll gather MORE DATA that way.

"Does my reading and posting on MB bother you? In what way? What does it mean to you when you know I've been on MB? Can I answer any of your questions about MB?"

Then TELL HER what your intention actually ~is~.

"My intention on MB is to learn marriage skills so I can be a better husband TO YOU."

And added just like your phone calls to OM hurt me even though you don't want to hurt me.

Better still...

"I am uneasy about your phone calls to OM because I think it weakens something I love and cherish ... OUR MARRIAGE. Can you help me with this?"

She responded, a little less defensively than usual,
"I'm not calling much anymore". This is very true and again the EA is fairly dead now.

"I appreciate you are not calling as much. Thank you. However, I still feel OUR MARRIAGE is threatened by the influence of an outsider. I do not trust OM to have the best interest of OUR MARRIAGE as his goal. The folks at MB want US to have a loving and lasting marriage."

She also told me that she needed to get used to the "new me" and that there has been a lot of hurt in the past. I responded on "both sides" to which she agreed.

I think you did OK here.

BUT....next time:

"Thank you for giving us a new chance to succeed. Let's do things the best we can FOR OUR MARRIAGE .... from now on. OK?"

The defensive shield was noticeably absent (no attempt to justify what she has done or been doing). She then clearly wanted to get out of the conversation and got up to get her day underway. Before she left, we kissed - hugged etc. all very normal behavior in this otherwise abnormal situation.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Kissing is good.... yes? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

While she has been through a lot of pain over the years that go well beyond my behavior to include friends as well as natural disasters, I don't think that explains the A. It seems more related to self esteem issues. But I think we're improving in this area.

The other thing that I think I need to understand is that there never will be any complete acknowlegement by her of the pain she caused.

This takes a loooong time. Not your current goal OK?

Perhaps I need to let go of my selfish need for that. But by the same token I don't want to bury this alive and I need her to understand that A's are not in the least bit glamorous.

You need to gain her trust back and keep her trust before you can expect anything like this.

I'm not sure she understands that yet so I would like to try to gradually show her some posts here and maybe lure her into this party we're having here everyday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Be happy and self assured... THAT is the lure.

If she wants to know why you seem so happy and serene ... say... "That's the MB way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> "

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ June 09, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS ....

Tell your wife

We at MB

LOVE HER!

and we pray for your marriage to succeed!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

good stuff here, thanks WOE and PEP. i really like the part about owning your feelings and it makes sense.

could it be explained more what the body language means? i'm going to be seeing my H in a few weeks and want to be more aware of these things. although in reality, i may not even see him. but i want to be prepared.

i just wanted to add a couple of things that SH told me and if i remember correctly, WOE you are working w/him? so this should not be of any surprise. as you know SH is big on information gathering and planting seeds. that if they (the WS) want out of the conversation then to let them. if they ask how things are going then it's okay to say "well, i'm not doing well but tomorrow is another day." of course, that is probably more specific to my situation because of the little contact i have w/my H and even when i do have contact it's by phone.

thanks again for sharing, and prayers to all.

Pep, thank you sooooooo much. This is greatly appreciated. What you said makes lots of sense. You definitely nailed it with the fact that I need to gain her trust first. I've lost that long ago.

What I can control is the confidence thing. In fact right after D-Day she said "you need to get your confidence back". I was the most self assured person in the world before this. IC even suggested a little narcisism (need to work on that). But I am getting a healthy bit of confidence back and trying to lose the arrogance.

Roughroad, thanks for checking in. I've gotten away from SH which was the right thing for me. I think I gained a lot from it but continuing it would probably be too hurtful for W right now. I'll leave you with an Atlantis Morrisette quote for now; "I know staying with you, meant disserting me; at that particular time". From the Under Rug Swept album. It's a really cool album and every song seems to have an infidelity theme to it, but in a positive way at least for me. Atlantis rocks. I'll be back with more, and hope this finds you well.

i think it's Alanis versus Atlantis <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> thanks also for checking in. i wasn't sure if you had still been talking to SH yourself versus both you and your wife.

pep is really good but so are you! hope that helps your confidence too. prayers to you, RR

RR, thanks. I did butcher the spelling of her name. I did stop counseling as honestly it was getting to be perceived as an LB. And since I am so long past D-Day and really not in an emergency situation I think it was the right thing to back off. As for talking to him myself, not really necessary and again W might consider it a LB. I really hope you husband figures it out before too long. But you know I have been very patient and I can tell you that is really starting to pay off. The reason I cited the line from the song is that I had to ignore what everyone was telling me to do and my natural inclinations and just put my pride aside and just love and love and love. I had to lose myself for a while so I hope you can use that as some inspiration to continue your efforts. I'm not jumping over to recovery yet but it really does get better. Hang in there.

WOE

very well said WOE. that's probably a lot of my mindset is that things will pay off. of course they will "pay off" w/God in that i haave a better relationship w/him now than i have in my whole life but still the nagging question of whether "I, the faithful spouse (but not innocent in the breakdown in our M)" will be given another chance by WS.

probably right about the continued counseling being perceived as an LB and it does sound like you have a handle on things. afterall you can always come here and ask things you would ask SH right? speaking of which, i have a session w/SH in 10minutes. take care and God bless, RR

Pep, some baby steps that I would like you to comment on. Today I checked W's cell and found that she called OM for about 10 minutes yesterday (on her drive to work). I didn't confront her with my latest spying but instead openly logged onto MB which I normally don't do. She asked if they still love me here and I thought she asked if they still loved her at MB. So I showed her your post script. This opened a little discussion about do I tell the MB forum all I have done over the years. I said yes. I then showed her some other posts. Some were humorous things some were from me and a couple of others. It didn't get real heavy but she talked about how woman are the strength behind men and gave some examples of crappy male treatment. I told her I am aware of some woman who treat men pretty crappy as well. She agreed. No tension in the conversation and she joking will refer to me as WOE or WOE is me. I told her I have IC today and she asked how that's going. Are you talking about your family?
I told her I'm only talking about me at IC and gave her a little insight. I showed her one particularly positive post that I put on another thread about being sympathetic and understanding about how people can stumble into A's. As you know I'm not judgemental at all in this area but empathetic to a fault in my own case. But after 10 minutes of light talk she left the room but later came back and talked about lighter things and gave me a hug before heading out.

While everyone may laugh at my approach I can tell you we are headed for an absolute confrontation in the coming weeks. The reason is my position on no longer going along. There are upcoming events like a Christening and picnics that she will just assume I will attend. So I really need to get myself in a good position before we hit this point. You may recall I stopped the car the last time she suggested we "might" run into OM earlier this spring. I have not been in OM's company in 2004 and that won't change. Obviously I need her to drop him but I can only control me. Realize I'm getting off track here but wanted your thoughts on my "plan" or what has transpired this morning.
These discussions are far and few that why the delay in posting.

Thanks.

WOE

Well this is progress...

And progress is how YOU choose to define it!

WOE is me... yeah, I got that too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think your most productive areas of focus might be:

1. Decide who you want to be. Take a self inventory. Put yourself through the microscope and determine what stays and what goes ---> all about you. Look at how you are either balanced or not balanced in areas of life:
~physical
~emotional
~spiritual
~financial
~intellectual

2. Keep your mind open to new ways to become attractive to your wife. You want to attract her not hold on to her.

3. Set goals. Short term to long term and all points in between. Ask yourself where you would like to be in 10 years.

4. Practice healthy communication. Honest. Kind. Timely.

This is a process for life... not necessarily to win your wife back.... you will be a happier person if you concentrate your efforts where your locus of control lies.

Happy self confident people are very attractive.

Pep

Very well spoken. I think this goes along with Romans suggestion on getting the book Shattered Dreams. I need to stop pursuing and focus on improving so I am worth pursuing. Not being mysterious but rather a model of consistency. Being able to look in the mirror and like what I see. Once that's achieved I suppose other things will fall in place. Thanks Pep.

Pep, I'm posting this here for your eyes only so to say and I'll put the long version on my other thread. W mentioned that it was odd that I had trouble getting started yesterday (SF). I said can I tell you something. She said it seemed like something was on your mind. I responded that it was your midnight phone call to OM. I then asked if she did indeed go to a second bar with him. She thought for a minute and said no.
When I say she thought for a minute I mean she was trying to recall the phone call I believe. So it probably was innocent but painful none the less. She then changed the subject and we've been having a great day ever since. And over lunch she tried to explain to me, without telling me the reason for the explaination, what might account for a "fog" statement that I brought up to her. She was trying to rationalize it and I took her explaination at face value. But it was cool that she is thinking. This is something that goes back months but she is becoming aware of it. And more and more the fog seems to be lifting and we seem to be getting closer. Yes, there are relapses but slowly we are moving forward and I think I'm in good shape to continue my questionable Plan A.