Unless you count puking emoticons as "special effects," in which case it's a dead heat...

I found myself getting sucked into lurking on the recent “board wars” between GQII and TOW. The whole thing had the weird, fascinating predictability of all soap operas. People got polarized, defending their uniqueness and individuality, fiercely unaware of how far they were retreating into stereotypes as they did so.

But I did learn something. Or perhaps, it’s more accurate to say that I decided something again. There was much discussion bandied about on the subject of people being unable or unwilling to even consider another person’s perspective or opinion. At the time, I had the opposite problem. I couldn’t get a firm fix on who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. Sometimes it’s only in the flux state of ambiguity that we are truly open to learning something new.

I didn’t want to keep on being the dutiful wife whether I felt like it or not, just because it was the morally right thing to do. I didn’t want to say “to heck with anybody else” and go out on a hedonistic spree to get my own needs met (although dang, it sounded tempting!) I didn’t want to work on my life anymore but I didn’t want to give up and accept the status quo, either.

I don’t know if I’m going to be able to adequately express this or not, but here goes because I think it’s worth saying. If you give up something you want because you’re afraid of it, it’s not a noble, authentic sacrifice. If you give it up because you “sour grape” yourself into half-heartedly believing you don’t really want it, it’s not a sacrifice. If you give it up because you secretly believe it’s not possible to have it, it’s not a sacrifice. If you give it up because you’re using morality or religion as your deux ex machine absolving you of your choice, it’s not a sacrifice.

So what’s the big deal about sacrifice? I looked up the etymology of the word. It’s from the Latin for “sacred, holy, God-like” and “to make or do.” If you make a sacrifice, you exercise your God-resembling power of autonomy to do something. To make thoughts become actions and substance in reality. It affirms your power and your sense of self. There are no victims of sacrifice.

What does my choice to pass up an opportunity to get a divorce, or to have an affair, mean unless I acknowledge that part of the truth of that experience would be that I would enjoy it, and that there would be a great deal of personal pleasure involved? Unless I acknowledge that it is an option that is available to me? Unless I acknowledge my own envy, vengefulness, and wounded pride that would be motivators?

Unless I acknowledge the payoffs for choosing not to seek that experience which are not totally “selfless and admirable”?

I was chafing under the yoke of resentment and envy. I felt angry that I had been taken advantage of and disregarded. I refused to acknowledge my own power. To acknowledge my power, I had to genuinely consider doing things other than what I am doing and have done. I had to weigh my options. To understand that not making a change was still making a choice, and if one must choose, it’s better to do it consciously.

Some of my choices are made now. Some I am taking my time deciding on.

Is there anybody here who is hip to what I’m saying in all this? Just wondering…

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Kat72 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there anybody here who is hip to what I’m saying in all this? Just wondering… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, Kat - that was spot on and so well written.

At the very beginning of "the mess" I clung to my M like a life raft. I was desperate, reeling. Saving my M was the only option I could see. Although the pain was intense, I don't think I really made a choice nor a sacrifice. I was reeling so hard I could only see one path.

Then we went into a half-assed recovery, things just slid back into place, and it was not good. I felt powerless, trapped in an "unfixed" M, and in fear and frustration I nearly destroyed our M myself. I made the choice to recommit to my M for several reasons:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To say I'd done all I can do</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can always D later</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to respect myself and I *don't* want to see myself as a "runner"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's the "right thing" to do and things that are "right" are usually "right" because lots of folks have been there and done that and learned what's "right" - a "right thing" is the sum experiential choice</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I'd say this re-commitment of mine is definitely a choice. Is it a sacrifice? I'll have to ponder that. I think not, because I think at this point although I have given up the potential "fun" of an A or a D, I'm doing it not because of any inner enlightenment, but because I trust this is "the right" thing to do and it's a choice I can change later, should I decide to. It's more of a safe strategy than a sacrifice.

I think I'll ruminate over this some more. Great post.

Thanks for the reply, turtlehead. (BTW, I've read your recounting of where the name "turtlehead" comes from and thought it was the best "how I got my login" story ever. But that's a tangent.)

And in my post, I absolutely mean no disrespect to those who are "lifeboating" or making decisions and choices for whatever reason. I remember too clearly what it felt like to have the stuffin' knocked out of me--profound, existentialist thought was not exactly high on my list of priorities or aspirations, LOL. Neither was "raising my consciousness" or "living in integrity/authenticity." I was in survival mode, pure and simple, as are so many here and there.

But I've been blessed to be able to get well out of survivor mode. And these are some of the next steps on my journey. Just thought I would share.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sacrifice is not something we do for ourselves but what we do for others. Giving up or doing something for our own motives seems more like choices rather than sacrifices. Big difference.

Someone very wise told me once to not ask Why? but What? What am I to learn in this situation. How can this make me a more better person. What can I learn from this that will enable me to help others.

No one learns from agruing-it doesn't breed growth. People are too buy considering their next argument rather than listening. I think it best to stay away from that sort of diatribe.

For the resentment, I've been there, bought the t-shirt. Not a fun place to be but something that has to be endured. I've taken solice in Romans 8:28.

I've taken comfort in the fact that these horrible deeds that were done are not of my doing. Yes, I take responsibility in my mistakes nonetheless, while I live with the pain and the memories, I know that the decisions to destroy lives is not something of which I have to live and die. I would take my pain rather than that responsibility any old day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sacrifice is not something we do for ourselves but what we do for others. Giving up or doing something for our own motives seems more like choices rather than sacrifices. Big difference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there? Really think about it.

Think about a "sacrifice play" in sports or chess. It's a choice--give up something good for something better.

When Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, who was the "other person" he was doing it for? He had a choice--keep his only son, or maintain his close, intimate, obedient relationship to the Creator of the universe.

When God sacrificed his Son, He temporarily "lost" one son in exchange for regaining the rest of the human race as His children. Which is not to say others don't sometimes (often?) benefit from our sacrifices. They do. Which is probably an indicator that to behave in a way that honors others is usually the way that is the most ultimately desirable/beneficial choice to us, as well.

Just something to chew on over the weekend...

Well, I posted to this sacrifice question in Recovery but GQII gets more action.

In terms of sacrifice, I think you can use morality or religion as a guide in deciding how or when to sacrifice. I have not absolved myself of choice by using morality or religion as a guide in my life. My faith better prepares me to make a sacrifice, because it teaches that I am not above all others and it is good to do something for the sake of another - even if it is at my own expense.

It is still my choice to believe and practice Christianity. My faith and morality are not just things that I have, they are values I have to continually work on and nurture. (Just like you can "have" a marriage, but it's not alive and blooming when you fail to nurture and develop it.)

What if I gain in sacrificing for another? Can it really be a sacrifice because although I've given up much, I've gained in faith and joy? I think yes. But then I also believe beautiful things can come from misery.

If recommitting to your marriage is a sacrifice without joy, then what are you giving?

Loy: Exactly!

I have been "testing the fences" of my beliefs and faith, against reality if that makes any sense. Morals, beliefs and religious convictions have a place--they form important boundaries to our behavior. And like all boundaries, they need to be tested periodically to make sure they are in sound condition.

I'm not rejecting them, I am questioning them earnestly, which most of the time, reinforces their validity.

Just requests, if you see something approaching "board war" here on MB, do give a head's up to the mods.

I've been reading on TOW the last few days, and again, I ask that if any MBers post there, they do so as respectfully as they would on MB, actually, if you identify yourself as coming from MB, even more respectfully.

Duly noted, fearless leader.

Never actually posted on the threads either here or there--just lurked and learned. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And FWIW, I don't think it was a full blown "board war." More of a border skirmish with minimal casualties...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Please return to your discussion, nothing wrong here.

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Archuletan ]</small>

I posted this in Recovery as well, but I'm interested in seeing what anybody here has to say about it.

+++++

Well, I'm not sure that the topic is really "sacrifice." Perhaps it's more like:

1. Is there really any benefit to seeing things through another person's perspective (even if it is "the enemy's"); and

2. How close can a person get to "seeing things through a different perspective" without actually walking down that alternate road?

My argument would be that yes, there is a benefit to seeing your life from another angle and from considering how alternate choices might change your life. I posted this topic on GQII as well, and in one of my responses there I wrote that I was "testing the fences" of my beliefs and boundaries.

I worry about people who never question their choices and beliefs for a moment. What I saw in my observation of the "board wars" was a lot of people doing just that--BSs who refused to question whether or not they ever might be tempted to engage in an A and OPs who refused to take any responsibility for the pain their actions had caused. Even Jesus questioned for a moment at Gethsemane whether or not it was really necessary for Him to go through with being crucified. I think when you just keep marching forward without checking your map or the terrain, you risk running far afield from your original destination. Or noticing that the terrain has changed since the map was made and you need to take an alternate route.

And while no one can tell the future or say for certain the answer to "what if," I think that there still is some valuable insight to be gained from asking it and extrapolating an answer to the best of your ability with the information you have available. I don't have to walk very far down certain roads to see the general "lay of the land" that way.

I saw the movie "13 Going on 30" which is a diverting little exercise in "what might be" and how making one choice (especially a choice about what your priorities are) can have a cascade effect. The girl in the movie made a choice between an authentic friendship and superficial popularity. After 17 years of consistently "looking out for #1" she had the "life" that she wanted, but had become a person she despised. All the externals were great, but she was empty inside.

It's starts out with "What's wrong with me doing whatever it takes to be happy? Don't I deserve happiness?" and turning a little bit of a blind eye to the hurt your happiness/enjoyment is causing others. But if you keep going down that road, eventually you're like Ray Charles behind the wheel of a double axle semi, crushing people in you path and shrugging "Not my fault--it's not like I set out to hit them."

But if I'm honest, there are people here who go too far the other direction and are like the woman in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" who denied her own needs and desires for years because pursuing them would make her parents upset.

Somewhere in between being a doormat and a steamroller is where we can live in a state of grace and peace. But it's a tricky, winding path with a lot of Ys in it. And early on in the game, most of those Ys are not black and white choices. But the darker you go into the gray area, the harder it gets to turn back to the light.

I'm interested in hearing what others have to say about this.