I will be drawing up visitation papers next week and H will be receiving them soon. I am due in ten weeks. He is starting to understand that he will not get to see his son very much but that hasn't cleared the fog. I just don't know if he really understands what it will be like to be a part time dad. Please give me your input. As Loy put it how will he know what he is missing if he never sees his son?????
These are guidelines from the state of AZ:
0-4months-2 hours three times a week in our home
4-9months-3hours three times a week in our home
9-12months-one 8 hour and one three hour

My opinion is that he needs to bond with his son before he can realize what he is missing. That if he never bonds he may just skip visitation all together. Although I also believe he should NOT have free reign, although this sounds cruel I think at the beginning I would allow more access to allow for this bonding to occur.(but keep the documentation as you have it in case he abuses this time, but be generous with his time as a "gift" to him plus it will bring him in contact with you more.) Then slowly limit his time after bonding so that he can get a taste of what he is missing.

Durham,
As you know my H was in an A when our D was born. It took him a while, but finally I think he is coming around and I think I have our D to thank for that. H became very scared when I started talking about D, because he didn't want to be a part time dad.
I think that your H should get to see what he is missing. Let him experience the beautiful baby and then let him see all the wonderful moments that he will miss. I wouldn't give him free reign and I do like the idea of the visitation schedule. I just don't know if I would rigidly follow it.
Just my advice. You know i think of you often. Take care.

Find out what the ramifications are if you do not have a visitation schedule in place, or if you do have one but are more generous in the beginning.

I've heard tales where fathers were able to get more visitation rights by simply proving that he had them in the past and nothing substantial had changed (i.e. finances, housing, etc.).

I would hate for your initial generosity to back- fire later.

April

Advice?

Hmmmm...

First thing, toss that schedule. Maybe not for real (cause you do need something legal in place) but when it comes down to it, a child needs both parents. And if this is your first child... gal, yer comin' up to a time where yer gonna need all the help you can get. Especially from the father of the child.

Whether the marriage works out or not, you are in a partnership with someone for the next 18+ years.

My advice? Unless the Harleys specifically counselled you against it, I'd get out of Plan B. Let him think you are moving on (not dating or anything, but that you have your own life) which you should be doing anyway. Let him be a part of this process for 2 reasons:

1- Regardless of anything else, this is his baby too.
2- This experience will create a bond between you that will be pretty darn powerful. Not just the birth, but the trials of pregnancy and caring for a newborn.

Ok, here's a third reason...

3- How is any OW going to deal with her new boyfriend going off to spend loads of time with his pregnant wife?

Heh, heh...

Remember that having a child changes some pretty fundemental things. You are about to bring a new life into this world and you have a responsibility to provide him/her with the very best life possible. That includes you and your H having a good relationship. Particularily if you are not together.

There's my 2 cents.

dewt

Wow everyone has a different opinion. This is extremely difficult.
Dewt---are you saying I should let him be a part of the next 10 weeks before delivery. I just don't think he should since he is confessing his love to the OW and only wants to be involved with the baby not me. Like we are two separate things totally. He asks me about the baby and I just tell him I will let him know if something is wrong otherwise just assume everything is great. I would have loved for him to help me with the delivery but not in this way. How can I have him help knowing what he is doing. I can't even stand to talk to him or look at him. I am disgusted.
I think I will try to get the schedule in place legally and then possibly give him more time. This is all soooo difficult!

Durham, Just my opinion, but it's pretty newfangled idea to let the H into the birth process, anyway. Never happened when I was a kid. It's kind of a 70s idea. Now it's considered the father's basic right somehow. Well, I don't know any other societies where any men were let into the childbirth room (other than a doctor).

Having been through it, I know one is very exposed, physically and emotionally, and very vulnerable.

I wouldn't want to go through that process with a man I didn't trust, a man who would be taking breaks from childbirth to telephone his lover. Giving birth can be painful enough.

I'd be with someone who has a long-term stake in your life -- a mother, a sister, a friend -- rather than a philandering H who you are likely to be divorcing.

Much as you'd like to believe this is going to be an 18-year partnership, the sad statistics are that many men check out of the responsibilities and start other families with other women. I wouldn't use the baby as a wishbone in this situation. Yes, the baby needs a father. So far your H has shown a very uneven wish to be one.

I wouldn't use "bonding" as a trick. It could backfire.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I will try to get the schedule in place legally... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an extremely good idea. It could make all the difference in the world in terms of your ability to control the well-being of your child.

durham, having a child will completely change your world...BUT men react to babies differently than we do...You dnt want to scare you WH away from the baby. Especially in the first few weeks...about 3 months, they are very needy.

This is JMVHO, I would let your WH be there for the birth...there is just something about watching your own child being born. That alone COULD change his whole perspective. I would ditch the visitation from the state. That is just not enough time to bond with the child. This is your H child too, he deserves to be with him just as much as you do. I would get out of Plan B...I know others will disagree with me, but this is HIS child too. When he is visiting you and the baby, be there to comfort him and the baby. Show him how to handle the baby and ocmfort the baby when he is crying.

ARe you going to be breast feeding? If so, do it in front of your WH. Do all you can do together with that new baby. They are such blessings and so wonderful in the first few months of life.

But remember, men are not born naturals when it comes to babies. Most men dont do well with it at all. So dont push your WH to do anything too much. Let him be a part of it all. Take lots of pictures of the three of you together as a family so he can look back on it. Take lots of pictures of HIM with his SON. Tell him how much his son looks like him. And that you are so glad he is there to help you with this.

This is JMVHO...If you want him to bond with him, he NEEDS to spend the time with him. But dont think it will be peachy, it will be stressful, but well worth it. I love babies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Don't know if this helps but wanted to share.

I'm the grown son of a a father who after the divorce stuck around for awhile but then bailed altogether. Not sure why but I suspect it had to do with anger over paying child support.

In his mind the child support was supporting his ex-wife (my mother) and her boy friend (later my step dad)

Don't know if he bonded but had to escape or whether there was never a bond there.

Years later when my W's infidelity occurred. The cycle started to repeat itself. My first reaction was to bale on her and children. Run away. So far at least I have decided to stick it out.

cwmac

durham,

The important thing about being in plan B is that he doesn't see you....that does NOT extend to the baby. I think he should be allowed generous visitation (AFTER the birth...not during the birth process because that involves you) and it's essential...that you aren't there during visitation and neither is the OW. Do get the legal agreement in place....you have the option of adhering to it or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is your H child too, he deserves to be with him just as much as you do. I would get out of Plan B...I know others will disagree with me, but this is HIS child too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, Mom, but at this point H is simply the sperm donor. He doesn't "deserve" anything by virtue of having had an orgasm.

His behavior determines what he "deserves."

Again, re childbirth and nursing -- I wouldn't want to expose my private parts to a man who had spurned me. That's my boundary.

I'm a little disturbed by a tone of manipulating H that is in this thread -- manipulation is usually a bad idea, and often backfires. Durham is in Plan B. Plan B is not about finding ways to manipulate H. Although her case is extreme, she needs to find ways to think about herself and her baby. H has become threatening, and is showing little interest at this point in reversing directions. The whole point of Plan B is thinking of life without him in the picture.

She's become much more content in Plan B, as many of us are. I don't want to see her lose that much-needed contentment by emotionally relying on him during the powerful experience of childbirth -- only to be dropped again afterwards. Including him in the hopes of manipulating his feelings is a set-up for getting hurt again.

Excuse me, AM Martin, but my post was not intended to come across as manipulating her WH. When there is a newborn child involved it is a whole new ball game and that man deserves to be a part of that childs life. he is involved in a spiral of addiction. And seeing his W with THEIR newborn son might change his aspect of this whole thing. This baby is not real to him yet. This baby deserves his mother and father in his life...and I am sorry if you disagree with me, but that is my opinion.

Also, durham, you do not want to overwhelm you WH and scare him with the baby. That is why I suggest you be with him when he visits. He might be less intimidated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, re childbirth and nursing -- I wouldn't want to expose my private parts to a man who had spurned me. That's my boundary.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give me a break...what "private parts" are being exposed during breastfeeding? The breasts are simply being used as a bottle at this time. You are not exposing any "private Parts". People breast feed everywhere. It is a natural thing to do and if durham has the right to feed her baby anywhere she wants to. You do not need to expose your entire breast while giving your child his milk. This can be done very discreetly...That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a little disturbed by a tone of manipulating H that is in this thread </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I am a little disturbed about you accusation that I was trying to manipulate durhams H.

I am trying to give durham much needed advice...I am sorry durham if I offended you in anyway. But that was not my intentions. I would want my WH in my babies life as much as possible. Whether a "sperm" donor or not, he deserves that child. So I guess my WH is also a sperm donor. He doesn't deserve his children either. hmmmm...interesting. Whether newborn or not, it is a child.

Not accusing you of anything, Mom. Just hearing a tone of manipulation in some of the posts that I wanted to question. Wasn't thinking of you in particular, or anyone else, either.

Yes, the child "deserves" two parents. But so far it isn't getting one. Just a guy who is threatening to withhold money, etc. He wants the privileges of being a father, sure -- but none of the responsibilities, like giving up his affair. There's little Durham can do about all that, except limit the damage. I reiterate: Plan B has restored some much-needed peace of mind to her.

And I reiterate also: trying to manipulate the H into bonding with the child -- and, by extension, the wife he is repudiating and threatening (which is what some of the posts have hinted) -- is likely to backfire and cause more pain when durham needs comfort the most.

(And during childbirth, yes, private parts are exposed -- particularly the vagina, where it all happens. Different people have different reactions in U.S. about breast during nursing. Though it was a bottle, I guess I still feel it was an intimate part of me, still. Not everyone feels that way. And my boundaries might be more sensitive about all this. I wouldn't want my H to hear me howling with pain, my body distorted, while he is fantasizing being with someone else, who was cooing with an intact body. Others might be able to handle that better than I could...C'mon, mom, REALLY...is that the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard?...Have you listened to any fogtalk lately?)

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Actually, Durham, maybe you should schedule a little time with the Harleys on this one. Or call into the radio program, as I did.

I can easily see the Harleys agreeing with the other posts here, and they have tons more experience than anyone else.

I do have a clamshell mechanism that may not serve the best in this situation. I'm thinking about protecting you and the baby. But there are other considerations.

Ok, my two cents (as a Mom and a L&D nurse)...

Just to clarify, I have been a part of deliveries where Dad-to-be was in an A!! Once, the OW was in the waiting room (new Mom didn't know)!! These situations were not as happy and as productive as they should have been. These have been my experiences, for what it's worth.

Child birth (especially, the first baby) can be scary, stressful and exhausting. It is important to have someone with you who is compassionate, patient, supportive, makes you feel safe, knows what you want and HAS YOUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART!!!! If your WH is not this person, at this time, you may need to reconsider having him at the delivery.

I can't stress strongly enough the importance of having someone there to support YOU through this experience. Yes, it would be nice for WH to be there for the delivery but, at this time, you need to place your piece of mind first. The last thing you'll need at this time is more stress and upset.

I have seen alot of births and can honestly say that Mom's with supportive companions they trust are much calmer and more relaxed. Being in a good frame of mind does help with labour and delivery.

IMHO, this is one time that you must place your own well-being ahead of what may be nice for your WH. Yes, he may miss a memorable moment but the important thing at this moment is your feeling of safety and feeling supported.

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: mgm ]</small>

durham -

This is your time to enjoy. A new baby will be the light of your life. You will think that no one ever has produced a child like yours. The hormones will kick in and you will be thinking, baby, baby, baby.

I am an old mom. When I had my first, my H was there and it was wonderful. By the time I had my second, my H was an alcoholic. He was at the birth, but mostly drinking in the parking lot with his brother. It was awful for me.

I had a terrible delivery, and when the boy was born, didn't even want to hold him. The next day, they sent the social worker in to see me.

Of course, now he is the love of my life. But it did not start out that way. Your baby's birth should be about you and baby. I would not have WH there. Get someone who loves your loveable self. This event is way too important.

The mom not being there is not an option for a breastfed infant - even if you have a supportive husband, it is not practical to leave an infant for more than a very short time.

Breastfeeding in front of the father should not be a problem - during my 13 or so years of breastfeeding my kids, I breastfed everywhere. There is no reason to feel uncomfortable.

durham,

I strongly urge you to seek counseling, professional that is, on this matter.

Please call the Harley's so you can explain your situation and get some much needed professional advice on how to deal with all this.

Remember, that the posters here, myself included, are not professional, we are just giving you our opinions.

You have a tough situation, please call MB professionals and get some help for this.

(((((HUGS))))) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Bump for Durham (plus I am very interested to hear what everyone has to say since this is something I will have to think about as well)