Believer, we are seeing a counselor now. Only had two sessions, the last one we met separately. Have to admit it scared and hurt me when the counselor told me to see a lawyer and protect myself. Can the Harleys really do better? She is out of control, in a fantasy, can't tell her otherwise and won't even try.

Like I've said before, this is like watching a train wreck. Just keeps getting faster and faster, can't keep up. WW isn't pretending that she is going to dump the OM, she is clear she wants to get the D and get the $$. I have been clearing out our debt, by liquidating some assets, and changed accounts for bill paying.

She is going to accuse me of doing what I believe she will do.

How do I answer that?

OK,

That is it. You have pushed me over the line. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You deserve to lose your children and all of your assets if you are so stupid as to NOT protect your children. Your 12 year old son comes to you freaked out over a horoscope that says he will be moving and you sit there on your thumb wondering if you should reduce your debt.

Get off of your A** and go to the best lawyer you can find, the most ruthless lawyer you can find, and get a separation agreement, if you state doesn't have that file for divorce and go for full custody and child support from her.

You won't be doing what she is doing, you will be playing for keeps to protect your children from being hauled from state to state as she moves from one OM to another. You already have the data from the past, the present is NO better.

You have their emails and you have other information, hire a PI, get everything documented and PLAY to protect your children. Anything less,and you deserve to lose them.

I am deadly serious here. You think this is some sort of game, she thinks it is some sort of game, and you both somehow think the children will be alright, they won't be, and you have no reason to assume that this OM, or the next OM or the one after that will not abuse them or at least just ignore them. You do know that she has done this in the past and more importantly you KNOW she is doing this now.

If you act, and act to win and protect, she MAY change her mind, but I would not plan or bet on it. This is NOW about your children and it is affecting them NOW. Quit playing games. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Yes, it is true you may retain your marriage, but it is also very likely given the divorce courts that if she shows up first, and you don't have the goods she wins and your children lose, of course you lose as well. Check with a GOOD and expensive lawyer. Don't do this on the cheap.

I'll leave you know, but I have been reading your threads since you came here, and I see you mostly just complaining and worrying, but not doing. It is time to do.

God Bless,

JL

1 JL's advice is usually well thought out and not given lightly. He has great insite and when given should not be taken lightly.

I've never been where you are so I can't say I know how you feel. But JL makes a good point and one to consider.

Bill

JL is right on. It's time to knock off the nonsense and start protecting those kids.

Familyman,

I apologize for my outburst, but at the very minimum go find out exactly what your chances are of keeping your children. Without sounding too sexist, the court system is heavily biased toward the female in court custody, and you MUST be already forewarned and forearmed, if you don't want your children jerked around.

I would definitely find the best, and get them on retainer or something and have your legal plans ready to do.

I realize this is all fairly soon after D-day, and I realize that in many cases the A ends. However,in the case of long distance A's and especially when small children are involved, YOU as the responsible parent here, need to protect them from being yanked around at the whim of your fogged over spouse.

Ordinarily I would say wait this out, do plan A, go to counseling because in most cases the OP is near by and you will NOT lose contact with your children, but when the WS is planning on moving them, planning on being in another state, you cannot delay this. If you were a woman you would have some slack because of the aforementioned custody bias, but you are not.

She may ASSUME that she will get the children, or that they will want to be with her, and I am saying that assumption implies that she pays no penalty for her decisions other than losing you. If she faces losing here children as well, then the fog may well lift.

Again, when you wrote about your little boy, it just made me so mad. Take care of him and your D, and that means protect them and the way of life they are used to.

Again, I apologize for my harsh sounding post, but your situation needs to be very carefully thought out, and plans and preventive measures in place NOW. Only a good lawyer can help you with that part.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I have been trying to be pro-active.

I am paying off the marital debt now, I set up seperate accounts and stopped my payroll deductions to the joint accounts. Stopped automatic contributions to all deferred comp and investment plans.
This has all been hard for me. I feel like I am doing something wrong. Not being committed to the M. I realize that WW is not thinking of anything but herself right now, and in fact, thinking dangerously and destructively. It hurts me that she is behaving this way, but also hurts me the way I am forced to behave.
My family and children know I am committed to the family. If I filed for the D, they would doubt me.

I am not giving up on my WW or on my kids. But damnit, I am struggling everyday.

<small>[ July 06, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: 1Tin Man ]</small>

Familyman,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My family and children know I am committed to the family. If I filed for the D, they would doubt me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Familyman, you would NOT lose credibility if you file to protect your children from being hauled all over the place and exposed to who knows what kind of man.

I cannot imagine the families on either side want to see them in this situation, but whether they want it or not, it is your duty to protect them. So don't doubt yourself on this OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not giving up on my WW or on my kids. But damnit, I am struggling everyday.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course you are, but remember this is NOT of your doing. Any ACTIONS you take should be for the best of you family NOT a reaction to her fog. But, ACTIONS are sometimes required.

God Bless,

JL

FamilyMan,

I couldn't agree more with JL's advice. Filing for D is not giving up on anything.

Keep in mind that if you file first, you likely have more control in setting the pace of the divorce process. If she files first, she can get significant advantage with respect to "pedente lite", which is "temporary" alimony. If she is the first petitioner, she can delay the process nearly indefinitely while you continue to pay her. It's not a given this would happen but better safe than sorry, correct?

Seek a father's rights attorney if you truly want to fight for your children. JL is correct that the courts are heavily biased against you for no other reason than you having a Y chromosome. It is a verifiable fact. However, never concede anything. Custody is at the whim of a judge. An experienced attorney may be able to get you a hearing with a more conservative judge.

Use the internet. Google is your friend. You can find online reviews/recommendations for excellent divorce/custody attorneys in your area. DO NOT rely on flashy ads in the Yellow Pages. Would you pick a heart surgeon that way?

Please trust me when I tell you that the sooner you gain some control over your situation, the better you will feel.

Not to change the subject, but I was reading this thread and the one on W's back porch phone chat with OM at the same time.

Familyman, your wife is a mental patient. You have got to stop letting her see how much she's getting to you. Stop being played by her! Now! That's an order! You don't have to boss her or fight or scream and yell. But you do have to let go and stop sweating her disrespectful behavior. She's bullying you. Ignore that bully and just focus on protecting your family from her. You're giving her too much satisfaction.

GC

Okay,

I've read and understand the parts about your WW needing to respect you in order to be able to begin the feelings of love. I realize some of the ways I have diminished the respect she used to have for me, and have tried to turn those around.
I feel like I'm doing the wrong things, or at best nothing of value.

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: 1Tin Man ]</small>

Go read arc^^'s last post to Dleightonc. She put lots of good info in there. It applies to your situation too. (Orchid's post to him too.)

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 1Family Man:
<strong> Okay,

I've read and understand the parts about your WW needing to respect you in order to be able to begin the feelings of love. I realize some of the ways I have diminished the respect she used to have for me, and have tried to turn those around.

How do you get your WW respect. What should I do. I feel silly asking this question, stupid even, but I guess things are moving so fast in the wrong direction I feel like I'm doing the wrong things, or at best nothing of value. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FM, we have all given you numerous suggestions but you have ignored every one. I only hope you are serious this time because nothing will change until you start taking action.

The way you regain her respect is to stand up for yourself and stop being scared. You just don't have the luxury to be "scared." Take charge of this situation by contacting a good lawyer who will put a stop to any schemes she has for taking the kids or plundering your money. Sit down with her and offer her a quick financial settlement to leave, without the kids, of course.

Tell her that you agree that she needs to move, as she offered before, and you will help her pack. Let her know that she won't be able to use your family's home to carry on her affair with an internet guy. That she will have to leave the premises to talk to her BF. No more carrying on her affair in front of your family.

I would also suggest running a background check on the OM and seeing if he is married.

I would suggest working quietly behind the scenes on all the above and getting all your ducks in a row. Then when you have everything ready, sit down and tell her how it will be.

Believe me, she will take notice and she will have new respect for you. BUT, she won't respect you if you keep waffling around letting her rub her stinky affair in your nose and scaring your kids with all these plots to move out. Women don't respect men they can run over.

Melody,

I have taken the advice given here. I won't file for the divorce though. I have seen many threads on here that say hold off filing, and say not to sign the papers or hurry along the final decree. However, that seems to be your advice.

I have completely taken over the financial aspects of our M. WW is very upset about it, in fact today she accused me of hoarding the money.

I have recieved the news that she will not be able to move the kids out of the area. However I am worried that she will try to move after a few years,

I am scared, and I don't apologize for it. I won't file for divorce, my kids would never understand that after I am trying to salvage this. Her behaivor is outrageous. I can not make her move,

I posted a thread a few days ago about my WW talking to OM on porch. Asked whether I should go out there and make it difficult on her. Not one reply said to confront her. I am trying to take everyone's advice, working plan A, trying to control financial damage, working with the kids, going to counseling, etc.

Maybe I'm just posting here a little to often looking for some encouragement, and venting my frustration and fears. Don't really have anyplace else to do it.

<small>[ July 06, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: 1Tin Man ]</small>

Melody is an expert - ignore my advice. Also ask for help from pepperband, ark, and orchid. Time to rely on the heavy hitters.

FM
I hope you do not stop posting here. That is why we are here. I think that everyone feels so bad for you right now and wants to help you. You have taken steps in the financial arena <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Great! But there is more you do have to do.

The flaunting of the affair really needs to stop. You yourself say this. She will keep on doing this as long as you let her. Granted she "won't listen to me" is true so you need some back up when you do confront her just like Mel said. I hate to say this but there really is no "nice" way to get around this. We all wish there would be but just from reading on other boards------everyone hesitates to "not be 'nice'" while the WS is kicking the sh@@ out of them. Sometimes you do things that appear to be "bad" but end up being the "right" thing in the end. Sometimes you have to take a gamble and hope it will work. There are no guarantees in this just as Dr. Harley says in his Plan A/B explaination. Life stinks sometimes and there is nothing you can do if WW will not cooperate.
Maybe everyone feels the tough approach will get you moving, I don't know. I do know, however, that you are the one that will suffer the consequences not anyone else. However, what you are doing isn't working. I'm new to MB so I always hesitate-----but these people have been around and have seen all kinds of circumstances.
You can't ask their advise and not listen to some of their input.

Do you have family to talk to. Maybe they can approach her or talk with her since you have no effect on her.

I understand the not filing of the divorce thing. I really do. I'm not sure if this is wise but you can sit down with your children and tell them what you want to do to save the marriage which is a gamble. They seem to be pretty smart. BUT you have to do something. I'm afraid she is going to ruin you. It's almost like you have to save her from her self but with no guarantees. It appears from what graycloud says that by you filing you would be in a better situation to control the progression of the divorce--buy time--head off her allimony ploy. If she has a good lawyer this is what she will do. It sounds like she is planning on carrying on this affair while she sucks money from you. Why do you think she is still denying the affair? Admitting the affair would lose her money in the end. After the divorce she can see him all the time and not suffer any consequences. She is getting advise from someone who knows what they are talking about.

Have you retained an attorney? I know you have seen two but. . . . They may give you a strategy to use.

Don't stop posting--------you need someone to talk to.

Been There,

She is still denying the A. I do think she knows it will hurt her in alimony. She doesn't have the money to retain an attny now since I've separtated the accounts.

She has been picking fights with me today. With her initiating the conversations about our M. I have told her I didn't want to talk about that, I would talk about her day, my day, the kids, the news anything at all except the M. Don't want to keep getting attacked and listen to her change our history together.

As long as she can't file I am thinking maybe Plan A may take hold somewhere. It is still early for us, DD only 5 weeks ago. But I'm not convinced, holding onto some hope. It is hard to Plan A when I am withholding her money and doing the grocery shopping and bill writing. I'm not going to pay her cell phone bills, she will have to figure that out.

We see the MC again on Tuesday, probably our last. MC is going to tell her to NC. I don't expect her to agree.

I know I'm not doing everything right ... but as they say "easier said than done."

Thanks for the note, I am looking for support and advice, and a place to release these uncomfortable feelings instead of holding them inside.

FM
Don't know if you have looked at ark^^ conversation that you were directed to but I took the liberty and copied a part of it for you. They sound like some very good ideas. Sort of long Maybe talking to ark^^ will help you.

Also when you see your MC maybe you could ask him/her about the kids and her opinion about the D filing thing.
Good luck

here are the 180 divorce busting tech.
I hopethis helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse hiswhereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


and another poster tips....note to change he to she...

“I have reflected on some of the things that got results from my H in this situation and here they are:
1. When he called me, I ended the conversation first.
2. When he came around I would ensure that the house smelled really good and I looked casual but well groomed. Spoke much softer than normal.
3. I definitely 'acted as if' my life was full and moving forward without him.
4. Did not give him as much eye contact as he likes. But when I did look in his eyes I did it flirtatiously.
5. Slowed my body language down - more controlled and no touchy, feely. Kept out of his space. Definitely no emotional outburst or tears. “Oh no, not the tears again, I am out of here”.
6. Never requested any assistance from him in anything. Caused him to offer.
7. When he expected me to do something, I would do the opposite. That got his attention.
8. Held back when he wanted a cuddle or any form of affection. Let him kiss my cheek instead of my lips.
9. Refused to see him when requested, let him pursue before I gave in, maybe three requests for one sighting of me.
10. Posted his mail instead of handing it to him or calling him. He always asks why not call and I will pick it up.

1. For walk-aways you must understand the actions and behaviors that created the climate for the flight.
2. You have not only to change those behaviors but actually live them.
3. You can only control your actions
4. You cannot control the situation you are in but you can control how you react in it.
5 Anything you do or say through the process is remembered. NEVER SPEAK IN ANGER!!!
6. Become the man or woman your spouse would never think of leaving. The man or woman that all their friends and support group would in times of crisis drive him/her back to you.
7. Listen and observe to every last detail from your H or W.
8. IF you are ever unsure how to act DONT.
9. When things don’t seem to be going well redefine your short term goals.
10. Live in positive times, keep positive filters on.
11. Accept that it takes time.
12. Accept that no matter what the outcome YOU are a good person and you have done your best. At the end of the day we must live with ourselves.

and here's the lighthouse post....

Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...
yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...
you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...
you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...


be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

hope that helps

ARK

ARK - I haven't been following this thread, but thank you for this post. It is wonderful, I just printed it out and plan to keep it somewhere that I can refer to it often.

FM
Been looking around and see that Orchid really seems to be able to set up strategy that works.

just a thought

Been There,

TY, I did see that post by ARC and I also saved it and printed it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will try to look up Orchid, I saw she left her Yahoo, I think it may good to chat with her so I can get a plan.