I was finishing up Doherty's book "Take Back your Marriage" last night and in it he says that couples NEED to go to bed together. He suggests that if couples have different needs, they go to bed together and when the early sleeper is asleep - the other one gets up and goes about their business. My H and I have done that on many occasions - and sometimes because I'm not tired I end up convincing him he's not as tired as he thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , and other times I end up falling asleep anyway. BUT NO, he doesn't go to bed at 8pm either. He used to be in bed by 10, but he's made his bedtime later so that we can get a little more time together. That's POJA - I don't stay up until 1pm every night, and he doesn't go to bed at 10pm every night - we compromise on 11 most times.

CWMAC - maybe I am making assumptions, but it seems to me that more is unfolding here that really needs to be dealt with than just how much you post here at MB. What others here have said is SO TRUE - when you spend so much time and energy posting and reading (which does take a LOT of time), it means that you are NOT spending that time towards your marriage or your wife. Whether or not that's a conflict for you - your wife is not comfortable with it. Now you're saying she goes to bed at 8pm even though she gets up at the same time as you. Why?? Do you think she'd like your company? IF NOT THEN WHY NOT!!

It just seems to me that if this were the ONLY issue left to be dealt with - it wouldn't be that big of a deal. If I am spending too much time surfing or doing whatever - my H approaches me with humor. I know that's a hint to back off a while. I'm not resentful about it, he's just expressing his feelings - and he's not angry with me, he knows this is just more interesting to me than him. We're working TOGETHER. Are you guys working together?? Is everything else in the marriage good?

I just read your post to eric. CW - are you sure you understand Harleys concepts?? Are you sure you have a real understanding of what it takes to have a good, mutually fulfilling relationship? Are you and your wife best friends - lovers - partners? Because it looks to me like you just atta-boyed someone who did a totally selfish and poorly choiced act. Yea, I understand his plight too - but that doesn't mean he did the right thing.

I think maybe I'm wasting my time - and since I limit that because my partner prefers it - I won't bother you anymore.

Hope has asked some very good questions. Can you answer them?

Of course you want to be helpful here on MB but were you planning to share the replies with Mrs. Cwmac to prove to her just how "important" you are here?

The most important thing in your life needs to be who you are as a loving husband to your own wife, not who you are as an MB contributor. SHE needs to be your top priority, NOT a message board.

Your wife is telling you that you are spending too much time here. This is time spent away from her and it is obviously bothering her. As Hope implied this may be more than a simple POJA issue in your marriage.

THE MARRIAGE BUILDERS FORUM CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT BE A REPLACEMENT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE.

Where are you personally REALLY at in recovery Cwmac? Your answer to Eric is somewhat disconcerting especially since you are TWO YEARS into recovery! It is the answer we would expect from a BS in early recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Are you okay?

<small>[ June 16, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

Hope & Knowbetter,
Sorry you got your panties in a bunch about me "not responding to you" but I did limit my time here today and I didn't look at this thread until just now.

I wasn't trying to give Eric an attaboy. He had said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is all just so strange to me that what has happened has not damaged our marriage further but has given us both relief. I think she really did expect me to do what I did,, and she feels ok its over now he can be mine again,,, That is how she is taking it.
I feel like ok my wife is not the only adulterer I am no better than her, lets just make sure we never hurt each other again. To me it feels like a learning lesson. That is why I am so suprised at the result of my weak decision to betray myself and what I thought I could never do.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I responded with...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again I'll be going against the MB convention here and (not) to advocate this to all BS but...

My guess is there still may be some fallout later. Then again maybe not. For your wife your actions may ease her intense feelings of guilt. For you, your actions have now put you and your wife on the same plane. You are no longer morally superior to her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately I was typing fast and forgot the all important word "not" as in I'm not advocating it.

As to your other rhetorical questions: The answers are: Yes yes and yes

Knewbetter said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The most important thing in your life needs to be who you are as a loving husband to your own wife, not who you are as an MB contributor. SHE needs to be your top priority, NOT a message board.

Your wife is telling you that you are spending too much time here. This is time spent away from her and it is obviously bothering her. As Hope implied this may be more than a simple POJA issue in your marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No kidding. Really?! Gosh thanks for the life changing information. Did I ever say that MB has become a replacement? No I said my wife is upset about my time spent here. IMHO she's upset about anytime spent here.

The time I spend at MB is either at night, in lieu of watching TV, hours after my wife is asleep, or at work. However as I said I've cut back at work. My wife made the comment after she looked at the computer history from the night before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your answer to Eric is somewhat disconcerting especially since you are TWO YEARS into recovery! It is the answer we would expect from a BS in early recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've explained my answer to Eric. I said his decision was regrettable and then I specifically responded to a comment that he had made.

BTW, I'm not two years into recovery. I changed my signature line because I no longer wanted to focus on dates and numbers and ddays but I'll recap it for everyone.

Discovered evidence of a "relationship" -Mar '02
After more evidence, W admitted to a EA -May '02
No contact letter - June '02
Story I was given never made logical sense
False recovery - 18 months
Finally told of PA - Sept '03

I think that is a total of 10 months of true recovery. Recovery has been tough due to two years of lieing.

It bothers me a bit that I can't make a comment in response to a specific MBers comment without being jumped on and accused of MB heresy.
God I hope the Grand Inquisitor doesn't discover my sin. I'll be roasted alive.

Yes this is the MB board but I don't see any list of rules that says I cant't empathize with a BH who just made a huge mistake. I was trying to put a posative spin on his disaterous mistake.

Maybe I should have pointed my finger at him and told him that he'd be damned forever. Where do some of you people get your haughty "holier than thou" attitudes? You should be ashamed of yourselves(but of course you won't be because you are holier than me and Eric)and therefore your opinion is the correct one, the divine one.

I'm sure there are alot of MBers out there that won't like my response but it seems of late that there is alot of judgmental attitudes out there and I'm really sick of it.

Once again, just my humble opinion and I'm entitled to it.

cwmac

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

cw, you may or may not notice the deleted post from me above this.

Basically, it was just to say I was worried about you.

No 2x4s, no judgements, I just didn't think what I said was helpful.

Jenny

et tu, Jen?

cwmac

Was that before or after my last post? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hadn't seen your most recent post when I said "et tu" I had just seen the post that had been edited and was blank.

I'm ok.

cwmac

Oh what the heck I'll take it as being after my last post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can't even remember what I posted. I AM 50 tomorrow and the old brain cells ain't what they used to be. I have actually had a crappy day today. Very down. I've got to this age and what have I got to show for it. Nearly wrecked my marriage, still no job - but, hey, tomorrow's another day.

I think I just said I was worried that you didn't know where you were anymore with your w. I said I was worried she goes to bed at 8.00. I USED to do that during the A, after the A when H didn't know, and a couple of months into recovery. I did it because I just didn't want to face my H and D who was living at home at the time.

I don't mind what you posted to Eric but it just makes me worried.

I don't know, I'm just worried for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jenny

Jen,
Thanks for your kind words. Oh and before I forget Happy Birthday!!!

You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Very down. I've got to this age and what have I got to show for it. Nearly wrecked my marriage, still no job </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen. I can relate to that. Sometimes I wonder if I've wasted 20 years of my life. Other times I don't know what I'd do without my wife.

I think the affair has caused me to rethink my whole life ie mid life crises. The marriage, the job/career, my relationships and all the responsibilities that I have that I can't just chuck.

Why are human beings so ****ty to each other? Especially the ones that are supposed to be safe.

My wife has always gone to bed early. During her affair she rarely even said "goodnight."

anyway... Hope you have a great day tomorrow.

cwmac

Funnily enough I have another interview tomorrow. It's at the university and is a "panel" interview.

I've also put in for one that I really want.

OK, funny story about the place I was temping. They are an "international" ie known even in America, industrial gas company.

I said to the guy I was working for "It's quite exciting working in a place where the whole place could "blow" at any moment.

He said "we try not to think about that."

He he he

Jenny

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

One more thing, you react EXACTLY the same way I do when "attacked".

I've always thought the best form of defence was attack which my MC told me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> is part of my personality and something I need to "work on".

BTW the best form of defence is NOT attack, apparently. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jenny

cw, This place is terribly addictive. I don't have a lot to do with my time, so I'm developing a major problem with it. Before MB's I used to go nuts on my own all day. I was forced to come to Asia to live after d-day - and I'm completely over shopping. It's not healthy to spend time on the computer when our S's are home. I know my H hates it. He knows he's responsible for me being on MB's - but he wants to have my company (unless there is Rugby on tv and even then he pop's into the computer room to see if I'm in a snit about how long the game is taking).

So I think we have to be honest with ourselves as to our usefulness on MB's. Sadly, there are plenty more where we come from. It's not so much about helping others as ..... something we need/want to do. I do know that I used to be a much better house wife before MB's.

If your wife is missing you and she's telling you so, then you best listen to her. It's summer for you yeah? Buy yourself a garden swing and sit outside with your W and snuggle till it's dark - or go for long walks with her and your kids, if they are young enough to be seen in public with their parents still. It's really unhealthy spend too much time on MB's - we all know it, and I am going to go off line now to do the huge pile of ironing I've got. NOT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

cwmac,

What does your W propose you fill your former MB time with? A hobby, quality couple time, etc.???

This is important. To just say you can't post or lurk anymore on anything, is a bit unfair.

When my H made that request, I asked (due to POJA), what his replacement was since MB was therapeutic for me. He said he understood just could I cut back a bit. I did. Also I adjusted my work and don't post from there either. Now I post when my family is either sleeping or busy with another activity. Family time is family time. Oh yea, I use my breaks while doing housework on MB. LOL!!! Makes the housework go faster?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The point is to get her take on the options. This s/b a requirement on both parts when one wants the other to make a change. A good trade off, so to speak....in a reasonable way of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

Let me repeat myself yet again. The only time I post on MB is after 9:30pm when my W has been asleep for hours. (and yes I lay in bed with her until she falls asleep - same as the advice I got but didn't ask for) The other time is at work during lunch or on a boring conference call.

Let's see what are most men in America doing at night while their FWW is asleep. I could take up that "hobby". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TV?- sometimes
surf the web for porn sites?- no
go to a chat room and pick up women?- no
read- already do that thanks
hobbies?- not really interested in a stamp collection, but thanks anyway.
go out to a bar?- no
work?- sometimes

Can anyone else think of anything to do between the hours of 9:30 and 11:00pm?

cwmac

PS I am waiting for a conference call to start.

Can anyone else think of anything to do between the hours of 9:30 and 11:00pm?

-Wax your board, really I met wax your board, nothing else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-send out late fee notices on over due books <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
- and my personal favorite, you might have heard of this one, SEX!!!!!!!!

Hello, 9:30 that is sex o'clock in all the states.
KY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only time I post on MB is after 9:30pm when my W has been asleep for hours. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Color me stupid, but if she's not even awake, what does she care?

Is there something else she'd like you to do, like help with housework that she can't get to because of her schedule?

Does she think you're too "stuck" in the A? If so, why (what behaviors of yours cause her to think that)? What can be done to address this?

Cw, I’m sorry you perceived yourself as being attacked. Generally when something raises concern on MB, the poster is asked to clarify. Responding to questions with hostility only fuels the perception that something really is wrong.

There is concern for you here, Cw, not judgment. Your wife asked you to limit your time on MB which is a reasonable request for her. Even my H who lurks infrequently has commented that you’re all over the place including weekends. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT UNTIL IT STARTS TO BOTHER YOUR WIFE.

You have made recent changes in your posting habits and that’s a good start towards making your wife feel more comfortable. I’m sorry that I was not aware of your sig line change, thanks for the update but your total time on the MB site has not changed, right? That is why I was so surprised at your answer to Eric.

QUOTE:
Eric,
I'll go against the crowd and say although regrettable the decision was yours. Maybe you needed to do this to even the score. Maybe now you'll be able to forgive her her transgression bc of your guilt. I know how you feel.

cwmac, This is what you were being questioned on, not the later post you quoted. This is what Hope was referring to as an “Attaboy” Maybe you didn’t mean it the way it sounded, but was still troubling to read from someone who has been on MB as long as you have.

Cw, you still appear so angry and unforgiving towards your wife. This is why your post raised some questions. This is why there is concern about the state of your relationship.

It is SO important to remember that we need to tend to our own marriages over the marriages of others here on MB especially if we spend a lot of time here. Cw, I’m not better than you, I’ve been called on this myself!

You have your own FWW at home but my overall impression is that you seem to treasure the FWWs on MB more. You are full of praise for them and hardly a positive word about your own wife. This isn’t good and needs to change. Your wife is asking you to turn towards HER. That's a Good Thing, go for it!

If MB is a stumbling block for her then work out a good solid POJA and stick with it. The concept of POJA is a stroke of genius IMO. Learn how to use it to strengthen your marriage and you’ll both benefit.

True recovery is something you and your FWW can have for yourselves Cwmac, not just something you advise other people on. Let go of that anger and pride and really watch recovery progress! I wish you nothing but the best and hope that you can take this reply in the spirit it is intended, KB

Knewbetter,
Read the following words. To me they were a srcastic grouping of rhetorical questions. Notice the absence of any sign that they are asked because Hope cared about me...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just read your post to eric. CW - are you sure you understand Harleys concepts?? Are you sure you have a real understanding of what it takes to have a good, mutually fulfilling relationship? Are you and your wife best friends - lovers - partners? Because it looks to me like you just atta-boyed someone who did a totally selfish and poorly choiced act. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's rewrite it the way it might have been written if she wanted to show that she was not attempting an attack on me...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Cwmac, I just read your post to Eric. Is everything OK with you because the way I read your post it seemed as though you were condoning his behavior. Was that your intent? If so, why did you say that?? Maybe I'm reading something in to it but is your recovery with your W going alright? Are you and she using the Harley methods on a consistent basis? Have you gotten closer to your W? etc etc... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then she got pissy because I hadn't responded to her upon demand. I hadn't seen the thread bc I was reading some of the newbies (who I can relate to and empathize with) She said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think maybe I'm wasting my time - and since I limit that because my partner prefers it - I won't bother you anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eric had already said that he was wrong. In my first response I agreed ie regrettable.

I said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'll go against the crowd and say although regrettable the decision was yours. Maybe you needed to do this to even the score. Maybe now you'll be able to forgive her her transgression bc of your guilt. I know how you feel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would I have advised him in advance to have a revenge affair? NO I was trying to turn the horribly negative into a posative. I was trying to look at the future instead of dwelling on the past. I do know how he feels bc I'm a male BS. During my darkest days in Nov & Dec I, too, thought abiut this subject, but I didn't nor would I suggest it to anyone.

In your last post...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You have your own FWW at home but my overall impression is that you seem to treasure the FWWs on MB more. You are full of praise for them and hardly a positive word about your own wife. This isn’t good and needs to change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you look at my history of posts you'll notice a few general trends. I typically respond to male BS amd female WS/FWSs. The next group to get my responses is female BSs. Male WS/FWSs rarel get any comment from me. Why do you think that is? Maybe because that is the same order in which I can relate to people on this board.

It's obvious why I relate to male BS. BS = cwmac

I can relate to FWW because that is my wife. FWW = my wife. You'll also notice that I'll typically start the communication with them when they are at the WW stage. I try to talk them into telling the truth to their H. My description of my situation should make the reason for that fairly obvious I don't want their H to go through the torture that I did.

I also suggest that they get all details on the tablr instead of the drip & drab method used by my W. I tell them that recovery really can't start until it's done. I don't just get this from reading excerpts from Harley's books. I get it from me.

Next down the ladder, I can kinda relate to a BW. I know the betrayal feeling but I'm not a woman so I'm somewhat limited in my scope.

Lastly the OM I have no real interest in helping. Call me a jerk. Tell me I should be kind to all of God's creatures, but you won't change my mind. Actually there are a few FOM who I post to. Hiker being one that comes to mind.

There are so many people on MB that I can't keep everybody straight. The people I remember are the ones I've posted to. Just the other day Ronny posted again. I responded to him in October '03 - about the time of DDay 2.

In my recap of my current situation, I forgot one important date May '04. This is the month that I finally got all of the information of my W's affair, although who really knows at this point.

So in a way I feel like a veteran and in another way I feel like someone who just had DDay last month. Our recovery was definitely hurt by over 2 years worth of lieing and manipulation.

Well...since you got me to break my new rule of no posting during work, I've got to go. I did want to respond so that you didn't assume I was avoiding you as Hope assumed yesterday.

Good-bye

cwmac

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>