Well, I have really messed up. Or keep messing up in little ways and it is adding up.

My WW thinks I am too proud or haughty, I'm not sure.

I am not. I am miserable and disillusioned and hurt. We are going through her withdrawls and she is frustrating me. Not with the A, with issues before that probably led up to it.

It seems everything I say or try comes out wrong. It just seems to make her mad. It has been that way for some time. Even before the affair.

There are things I don't do for her as a H. But I try to be better, do better. I don't say things I don't mean, never have. I do say things I mean, but later don't walk out. It is easier to say who you are than be who you are sometimes, maybe most times.

She really doesn't like me now. Says she loves me, but not in love with me. Says it has been this way for years.

BTW, the "NC" in "NCWalker" is "no chance" because I have found in my life that even when there is no chance, you can still walk it out.

She is really mad at me. In withdrawl. I just keep messing up. Her self-image is really low from her childhood. Has been our whole marriage. Guess my mistake was I just told her I loved her. The OM told her what she wanted to hear.

Guess I couldn't change enough. Or be a man and do what she needed (I did avoid some things I should have been doing). I was always there for her. Patient with her. Patient when she would physically withdraw. Patient when she would beat herself up for silly things.

Can't figure out where I went wrong. I am socially clumsy with other people. Kind of like Eeyore. Not depressed, just clumsy. Can't read people. Can fix any broken machine on the block. Can't figure out how I make others feel.

I try to do my best. I might cut the grass better than anyone, but if it's the house that needed painting, what have you gained?

It would have been easier if she told me this stuff. I have been on her back burner for some time, and she on mine. Who got there first? Who knows. Chicken and egg.

I have tried many times to make it work and it feels to me if I don't do it perfectly, I might as well not have tried.

It hurts. Her OM wasn't perfect to her and she gave him her heart. I have been with her through a lot, and it doesn't seem to count.

I can't remember when I got mercy from her. I know I must have, just can't remember it. She is so hard on herself. She lets the world beat her down and I pick up the pieces and if feels like there is nothing left in her for me. Even before the A. Hear my Taker talking? I'm sorry. That's how it feels.

We don't sleep together in bed anymore. She and I don't want to be intimate right now and it hurts to be next to her in bed. I'm afraid I won't want to after what happened. I don't think I can take the misery. I guarded my heart while overseas. I have always guarded my heart. From everyone but her.

I feel like she has lied to me for years not telling me how she feels. I'm not a monster. Sometimes I am. We yell and scare the kids with it.

She just gets so angry at me. I can't make my words come out right ever. I feel like shaking her sometimes to wake her up to reality, but to whose? Mine? She has hurts that run deep. Mostly not put there by me. Some are. I do aggravate them sometimes when I am selfish.

I just don't feel appreciated for my patience or my efforts. I get selfish. Why should I try anymore? Can we really give unconditional love like God does? No. I try to watch it, but screw up. I can't seem to get forgiveness for any of my mistakes. Couldn't before. Probably could, just doesn't feel like it.

While I was deployed we would talk on the phone. Long before her A started. Most times it was nice. Some times it wasn't. She would cry and tell me the things I did to hurt her. I wrote them all down and kept them in a photo pak with her pictures. She wouldn't send me any pictures of herself. She said she was fat. She was still beautiful to me. I wrote all these things down. "Being another kid.", saying "look at me, I'm helping", "escaping." I would look at her pictures I had and pray over these things she said every night. My fellow soldiers would tease me. They were watching the wrong movies, chasing girls, whooping it up, with their new "freedom" and they would kid me. It hurt. But she meant enough to change. I was not going to lose.

I came home and she ripped my heart out. I was excited to share the man I had become and didn't realize it was too late. I already lost her. I am trying to get her back. To win her back but I am afraid I can't. I can't make her see what a good person she is. This OM did and it was lies. Didn't mean it didn't feel good to her. And now it seems to be over and she feels even worse about herself because of what she has done. I am getting tired of picking up the pieces of pain I didn't cause. She gets hurt and shuts down towards me. Has been shut down to me for some time.

Makes it hard to give. I know I am walking in the right direction. Just don't see any light ahead. Need to see some light.

I feel like I have given and given. She says no. Knowing me, I gave in the wrong places. I have been patient with her figuring out who she was. Thought I knew what I had to do when I got back home. Then she did what she did. Now it will take longer to fix us. She doesn't know how I feel. I tell her, but she doesn't listen. Hears what she wants. Probably tell her different things with tone and body language. I don't know.

I can't figure out how to be Plan A - to meet her needs, when ever I try she yells. Clumsy at it, remember. I am a good man, just insensitive I guess, or insensitive to what she needs. I have read HNHN and tried them all. Just doesn't seem to work. I can't make her love me. Hear that? Make her. I keep going because I love her and it is getting harder and harder to walk. In the dark.

Ok Walker - that was a really good vent.

You're obviously frustrated, hurting and afraid. So is your wife. But she's also in withdrawl - which makes her all sorts of other things that have nothing really to do with you.

It's time to step back from the pain of this situation as much as you can and look at this less personally. Boy THAT'S hard, I know. But the anger and lack of compassion she is showing right now - has NOTHING to do with you. No matter how much she blames you for it - it's not yours to own.

Trust me - I was a VERY angry WS for quite a while. It had NOTHING to do with my H (who coudn't have done anything right no matter how hard he tried).

Chicken and egg.

Exactly ... or ... eggactly.

Who started "it" is not important. You are not children.


We yell and scare the kids with it.

Stop this immediately!

Here's a better way .... write each other notes.... tell each other how you feel... but don't yell in front of the kids.


She just gets so angry at me. I can't make my words come out right ever.

Yes... and she got insulted by me when I was just saying something silly I like to say "la de da"... Your dear wife is extra sensitive and she sees insults where none were intended.

Here's a tip.

When you are in the beginning of an arguement with each other...

STOP!

Ask yourselves if you are both understanding what the other persons ~intent~ might be.

Both of you are currently ~assuming~ ill intent is driving the other.

BOTH of you are currently PAIN DRIVEN ... if you think of your family as a car .... NO ONE is at the wheel!

The saner of you needs to drive. Take turns being calm and sane.

Both of you cannot flip out at the same time.

Pep

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

ncwalker:

Reading your post brought me to tears. Pepper had very good advice about when you start to argue, my H and I do this...I will ask him to tell me what he thinks I am trying to say. Often we don't really "hear" what the other person is trying to say. We have our own internal dialogue that is so much louder. Pepper's advice is good also because it seems to SLOW down our argument...this helps us think before we speak...which helps us chose better, less hurtful words.

Your wife's anger is not at you. A FWW here, and most of my anger was at myself...or it was fear being masked with anger.

Just be patient and kind and loving to her. Show it consistently. Show it unconditionally.
"Can we really give unconditional love like God does?" I think so. You love your children unconditionally right? I have posted before that I truly believe it was my H's unconditional love that helped me out of my double life.

I hear how tired you are.
I hear how afraid you are.
I hear anger.
Try to remember though, that your walk may be difficult-and dark-but you are not alone.

nc,
Great post.
I'm in the Air Force, what branch you in?

It took me back to when I felt as you.
It seemed at the time that my wife didn't care at all about the efforts I was making to "fix" me. She thought I was acting better than she. That she was the evil infidel and I held the moral upperhand. It was frustrating. I felt unappreciated and unloved. She was indifferent to me. Sid that I was doing a lot of good things but she could have put anybody in that slot. Freiggin' dagger after dagger. It hursts, brah, I know it does. But the things you are doing are making a difference....in you. She'll notice eventually, she probably already does but the guilt/fog/regret makes it hard for her to see you for what you are.

Keep plugging a long, it seems in a short amout of time you have figured out a lot about yourself. I might have missed it but do you go to a counselor? I went for a year by myself....it kept me sane : )

God Bless

Doug

One of my favorite quotes:
Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear.

NCW -

I've read many of your posts as well as the posts from your FWW. I can relate to your situation somewhat. My FWH is in the military and had an A as soon as he came home from the war. I felt so betrayed for all the suffering I had gone through during his many deployments.

I was very very angry with him. I didn't want to do plan A...didn't know how to do plan A. How in the world am I supposed to be nice to someone who just shredded my heart and ruined my life (or so I thought at the time).

I came to this site. I vented like you are doing now. I brought my LB's here. Yes, I also LB'ed my H many many times. I had to come here to be reminded that what I really wanted was recovery.

MBers walked me through the steps of dealing with my anger. They held my hand on the days I wanted to leave. They made suggestions on how to deal with my own FOG about the A and my feelings for my H.

You have to realize that you are here because you want to save your marriage. Your wife wants to save your M. People make mistakes...albeit this is a pretty big life altering mistake it's a mistake just the same. If you have decided that you will be able to forgive your W and plan to move forward creating a better M for you and a better life for your children you will have to work through your anger.

Release your own guilt and forgive your wife. Ask for her to forgive you as well. If you have trouble communicating with her be honest with her and tell her that. My H is terrible with expressing himself. If it's not related to the army or cycling he won't talk about it. That's how he is. I've had to do my own coaching with him. We read "The 5 Love Languages" together and this helped him a great deal. There is also a "5 love languages" written for men. My H did not connect with HNHN just like you. I found it very helpful.

Speaking as a military wife I can tell you that being left behind so often is very difficult. No excuses here but I can tell you that is not easy. I remember my husband making me feel very silly for being tired of being alone so much. Being in the military is hard on the families as well as the soldiers.

Hi all. I tend to post too long and I have a blessing to report so I'll post the long story next. Nothing important, just a nice story.

I am basking in God's glory right now in awe of how wonderful he is.

Psalm 18:19 He brought me out into a spacious place; he rescued me because he delighted in me.

(BTW, for those of you out there who are not spiritual in some fashion, you have a SERIOUS disadvantage. If you had known me before runawaypot LMTTL, you would have never believed I would have been. I haven't looked back since.)

Thanks to you all on the thread for your responses. I hate venting. I have never been in such pain in my life and sometimes can't help it. I can see how it is good for me. Just don't normally do it.

To each of you:

hope4
Thanks. It helps to hear that I am just around WW anger and not the cause of ALL of it. It is hard to be around it. I know I need to step back and I do. Sometimes I start a fight, then realize it, then step back. But like stepping on a land mine, once you hear the "click," it is hard to step off without the explosion. I love my wife. Her handle is RUNAWAYpot. She puts up with a lot, but when she goes, she goes. It's OK under the circumstances, just hard.

Pepperband
Loud and clear on the yell and scare the kids. I can tell it is a soft spot for you. It is not nearly as bad as it sounds. Usually in a fight, one of us will realize we are loud pretty soon and we tone it down. Both RAP and I are comitted to our kids. NONE of our families was spiritual. We decided to break that generational curse. We have come under a lot of flak from our parents on both sides about our spirituality - what we keep from the kids, blah, blah, blah. My oldest is 13 and a GREAT son. He is a GREAT person, compassionate, kind, loving, but also VERY strong in a stoic way. Not a wimp - second place in the state in karate sparring. Probably a better man than I when I was in my early 20s. Our parents now say they have the best grandchildren. So look who's laughing now about our parenting choices (God, thanks big guy). So please, don't worry about the kids. The DS are covered by both me and RAP. You are right on about the PAIN DRIVEN. Keep saying it. It will eventually get through to RAP and I. Kind of wish part of getting a marriage liscense was a skull X-ray to make sure they BOTH weren't thick. Benefit is, when she and I latch on to an idea, we usually don't let it go either.

MO3BC:
RAP does want to e-mail you. Just hasn't done it yet. I appreciate the advice on the active listening. It has been tried in our M several (many) times. (See the skull comment above). Just not by both of us at the SAME TIME. As we keep ripping away the layers of slime the enemy has just dragged us through, I know it's going to boil down to reconciliation and happiness when we have both chosen it. Gotta get through the slime first. God NEVER promised easy, only that we could bear it if we chose to. I hate to say it, your "unconditional love" comment bothered me a bit. I get nervous when I start saying I am as good as God or his Son. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but what a thread! Is unconditional love possible? For us, I mean.

d_rose:
I am a proud member of the U.S. Army, where every ration is a feast, every formation is a parade, every day a holiday, every push-up a massage, and every problem another opportunity to excel!
{Service members inset - good natured kidding between braches: So d_rose, how do you like that new "Blues Clues" uniform of yours? P-R-E-T-T-Y S-P-I-F-F-Y ;-)} Serious again. YES YES YES. I am trying too hard to show her how hard I am trying. I think it comes from the fact that I have to go into the world and COMPETE COMPETE COMPETE to be noticed and when I get home I think I have to do the same. All I probably have to do is be good. Thanks. It is always good to hear a "been there, done that" since it makes it seem less hopeless.

heroswife:
Thanks for confessing the LBs. I ALWAYS feel horrible when I do them. Most people post and give out wisdom. Most try to be upbeat when they are trying to help. A good thing. You said, "It's OK to make a mistake, it will be forgiven." You don't know how I needed to hear that. I truly have forgiven RAP for the PA. I am pretty satisfied with why it happened. Don't get me wrong, wish it hadn't, but I am a ROM 8:28 kind of guy when I'm not being selfish. Working on the forget, that will take time. I am wired pretty tough emotionally, RAP isn't really and as I said, I get selfish and can't understand why she can't be more like me. Then I realize I wouldn't have her any other way and it passes.

Last - AMEN to the military wives. You guys NEVER get enough credit. Also you stay at home mom's. I really feel for you women in this area, you can never please everyone and it's gotta stink. I'm a guy, so I go to work and bring home the bacon, and all is right with the world and everyone agrees I am doing what I should. You women can't win for losing, if you go to work, half the people gripe and say you should be at home with your kids. If you stay home with the kids, the other half of the people say your wasting your life and should work. A lose-lose, unless you and the H are in agreement. I guess that's why you pay us guys back with those unanswerable questions like "Am I fat?" Can I get a WITNESS!

So here is the long story of what happened.

When I started this thread, RAP had been on me and on me. She was angry over a lot of things I said, I felt a lot of it was not justified. Who knows? I was obviously hurting her, she was obviously hurting me.

For the last several days I had been sliding deeper and deeper into a funk. An it's not worth it anymore kind of a funk. A there is no way RAP will ever be a "wife of noble character" funk. My nerves were on edge. It felt as if I had been attacked from every side. RAP is understandably harrowed, but couldn't seem to show me any mercy for even the smallest mistake. Magnified by my selfishness. But this stuff is hard.

I was hurting and wrote the post above about walking but could not see the light. You all responded and said nice things and told me there was hope, but I needed to see it from RAP. She just didn't have it to give. REALLY hasn't since last NC.

Went to MC after work. Got there early, RAP had the 3DS. The MCs talked with me alone. I confessed the trouble I had been causing. We talked and prayed about what would be best for RAP. They started giving me the truth - suck it up, you have to be strong, you have to understand - all the stuff that did not make sense to my EGO. RAP came in later, didn't expect me to be there early and was kind of hurt by that (I goofed, miscommunication all around). I thought she was thinking I had just been unloading about her (I hadn't), don't know for sure, but that was the mean-spirited thought from the enemy and he was valves wide open at that point. Counselling with her there was tense. We finished and the male MC stayed with me and preached again on what I should be doing. Again, the truth, but my mental state was not right and I was really resistant to the message. He told me to stay in Psalm 18.

So I am driving home alone, RAP has the 3DS in her car (we had met there, me from work and her from home). I am driving alone and I just know, you know, that it's not going to be a good night. RAP hasn't met an EN in a while. She's just going day-by-day with the withdrawl, guilt, whatever. And I start psyching myself up that no matter what, I'm not going to fight.

So we get home and we are cooking dinner, messing with the 3DS in this uneasy kind of silence because MC was a little awkward. RAP is out of the room and the phone rings. It is a creditor. Without going into a lot of detail, the home finances is a BIG ISSUE with RAP. She has shouldered most of that burden and needed me to do it. I have not been good and have left it to her WAY to long. I mean, if you had to pick a reason for us to fight, it is the finances. MAJOR LB. Now I have taken over the finances, but know I gotta walk this out before RAP (justifiably) is comfortable with me. I had some pay problems with the army and our money is, well, a mess. Now I know who this creditor is, it's the guy I was SUPPOSED to send a fax to last Thursday. I stuffed the fax into my brief case and of course forgot (STUPID STUPID STUPID). So here it is today and he's calling wanting this thing. I tell him I'll send it tonight. I get off the phone and RAP says "Who was that?" and my flesh is screaming LIE OR YOU DIE!!!!! But I just can't bring myself to lie to RAP.

So I am trying to flex the muscles in my ears to close them off without her seeing and I tell who it was. RAP is pretty cool about it.

Then she asks "Did they get the fax?" And I am starting to look towards the nearest exits and the tension is building and I kind of timidly say "No."

At this point, I'm ready to start the impending doom now and get it over with. RAP REALLY unloads on this issue, it is one of her hot buttons.

Then she asks "Why didn't they get it?" and the icy ball is forming in the pit of my stomach. And the LIE option seems like a faint, far off life preserver at this point. But I don't and I clench my fists, grit my teeth, (figuratively) and I say "Because I forgot to send it."

Then RAP stunned me. NORMALLY I would have deserved both barrels. I did deserve both barrels. But she said "What can I do to help you send it?" And here I am, internally coiled up ready for battle and she said THAT. And I said "Nothing, thanks for asking." And I kept fixing some dinner and let what happened sink in. And I paused and it really hit me at that point and I said "Really. Thanks for asking." And RAP is a little confused I leave the kitchen and head for the bedroom.

And I can't take it at that point. I was just humbled by it because that is the LAST thing I would have expected. And I start bawling and crying with those huge racking sobs. The kind that only comes when the Spirit is really working on you. And it's so odd. She didn't say what I thought I would have needed to help me. Nothing like "I should never have done this to you." Or stuff like that. It was just a little thing I hadn't gotten in SOO long. It was just a little mercy for a mistake. But it wasn't a little thing either, it was a big thing because it is something I have never done well for RAP and I'm screwing it up again. And she just showed a little mercy. And if felt like this ENORMOUS burden came off my shoulders. I just couldn't handle it and I'm crying and cying by the bed. It wasn't much, but it was EVERYTHING, ya know?

It was a NEED that God met. And it didn't take much. He knew exactly what I needed to hear. I couldn't have picked a better thing to happen at this point and there it was. And I felt bad about my funk and I felt bad about my feelings and I felt repentent and I cried and cried and it was great.

And when I got my composure I thought about the MC for a second and "stay in Psalm 18" and there you have it. "He brought me out into a spacious place; he rescued me because he delighted in me."

And that light I needed SOO BAD was there. I mean, RAP and I aren't miraculously healed tonight. But I am really ready and revitalized. It's like I'm totally restored to face what comes next. And I hugged her and told her "Thanks, you don't know what you just did for me." (Of course, she was really confused). But hugged me back and it was just nice.

When you find yourself PAIN DRIVEN

stop the car

sit on the edge of the road

Take a time out

Pray......

Ask God to take your hand and breathe Grace into your mind and heart.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong>

It was a NEED that God met. And it didn't take much. He knew exactly what I needed to hear. I couldn't have picked a better thing to happen at this point and there it was. And I felt bad about my funk and I felt bad about my feelings and I felt repentent and I cried and cried and it was great.

And when I got my composure I thought about the MC for a second and "stay in Psalm 18" and there you have it. "He brought me out into a spacious place; he rescued me because he delighted in me."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Thank you for this beautiful post, nc.

nc

I am a proud member of the U.S. Army, where every ration is a feast, every formation is a parade, every day a holiday, every push-up a massage, and every problem another opportunity to excel!

Have you been reading the Army recruiting brochure?

Lucky for me I wear the DCU and not the blues clues BDU's. Those look real intimidating, much like the Lithuanian Marine uniform and nothing inspires more fear than them.

Looks like you learned something last night...assumptions are a beatch. I noticed that there is a lot of guessing on how you think she feels. Try not to jump to these conclusions. I am sure you have changed and you wouldn't want her reacting to the "old" you.

What happened last night is pretty huge. Something that she would normally "give it to you" for, she checked herself, Thought about YOU and changed her behavior.

James 1:2-11 is a good read also.

God Bless

Doug

NC -

I believe the fact that you reacted like you did to her reaction will only empower her to make changes in herself. RAP's mercy will most likely inspire you to make some changes within yourself as well.

What happened last night was a huge WIN for your M!!!!

I think Pepper's analogy of pulling off on the side of the road is beautiful and well fitting for this situation.

Pepper where in the world do you get your inspiration? You are so helpful to everyone on this board. I try to read everything you post these days.

NC - I hope you have a good day today. Remember chin up, chest out...you are on your way to recovery.

Sending my prayers to you and RAP.

Hi NCW,

I can so relate to your original post... hang in there, it does get better as your second post notes!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Savor these sucesses and keep working on yourself... as you improve yourself, you'll start to see your W come around.

My W didn't start opening up to me until I showed her that I could control MY reponses and MY actions... no matter how poorly she treated me.

It's easy for us to SAY that we're living godly lives and leading our families... the hard part is actually DOING it.

Ditto on the military wives... my wonderful W is putting up with a second deployment in 4 years...

You're on the right track... keep working and HE will bless you for your faithfulness... You and your W are in my prayers...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

(PS, I'm in the Army, but am a former Marine, thus the Semper Fi..., Oh, and don't laugh too hard at our AF brothers and sisters, have you seen the "new" Army Combat Uniform???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )