</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Knewbetter:
<strong> ::::Your wife made a decision to have an affair based on many different factors. She did not have boundries and understanding of how to guard her marriage. As opposed to you, she relatively "blundered" into her A, while you walked in eyes wide open. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyname, Thanks for opening MY eyes. I did not consider BS thoughts at all when I wrote it. I never meant to imply in the quote that one A was more "right" than the other because no matter what the circumstances an affair is never right but what I said was insensitive and out of line.

My apologies to both you and Eric. I would hope that I could see both sides of the A by now but being only on the one, I missed acknowledging the emotional impact of the A on BSs. I should not have said what I said at all, it was not neccesary. I guess I wasn't thinking straight! So sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by eric. n:
<strong> Oh and as far as my wifes actions,,,, she has given me yet another wake up call,, she led me to believe he meant nothing to her and that she would never talk to him again. Just the same as I was separated from her for 2 months and I had an affair,, me and my wife have not been intimate,,not that I even feel I have to ask her,, but given the latest discovery,,, I am positive my wife has been with OM during these 2 months of separation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eric, Now I don't remember if it was you or Mr. E (did you see he's back?) that I said this to, but I was concerned about a wife and children being left alone when the OM is clearly a predator. Whatever happened in that two months you were gone, contact or no contact really is in the past. What's done is done for you and her both. It doesn't spell the end of your marriage unless you let it.

I also spilled something sensitive to OM which he later threatened to use against me. Something that would cost a cop his job (no not my H) I could kick myself now and had to come clean with the person I betrayed. More crap on top of crap.

Thankfully, I was forgiven but this friend would have lost his job in a heartbeat if OM decided to spill. Why did I do it? God knows. I needed this cop friend to help me keep OM in line but the information OM had prevented me from being able to do this. Your wife is NOT the only stupid one! I had almost forgotten about this part of the A until this came up in your post.

There was a great list Maverick put up on thread titled Want to Know Abused and Abuser Behaviors. It's on the Emotional Needs board. Go check it out. Your wife has reasons behind choosing this loser. They don't have anything to do with you Eric.

She needs help to understand her choice. Fog only explains some of it after the fact but there may be more issues here than you realize. Even IF there weren't, the OM still is an aggressive a**h*le who had free access to your wife while you were not home with her. I know some might think that there are contact choices but take it from me, sometimes you don't have one at all, not with the scary kind of OMs.

I remember now, in my first post to you: "Eric it seems you are being more protective of yourself than you are of her." Something like that anyway. You get the point. Please don't go back over all the things done during that two months and hold them against her now.

You two need to sit down together and get it all out. She will tell you TERRIBLE, HURTFUL things but you need to be strong and let her tell. Be that safe person she can talk to. It is so hard Eric to tell the truth when the truth is so UGLY. It has to be done. You must forgive, you must go on. YOU CAN! Don't give up, KB

Eric,


I am glad your boss decided to show you mercy.


"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.
Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'

Shul

(who had the same 2x4 just yesterday...)

Eric, I don’t want to highjack your thread, but let me just quickly send a response to MelodyLane on her post of yesterday.

MelodyLane, yesterday you’ve said:

There is no other measure by which to judge a man if not by his ACTIONS, so it makes no sense to try and detach the two. Nor is there any biblical basis for such an irrational viewpoint.

AND

I think your main argument is with the truth, rather than some imaginary sin called "judgementalism."

AND

I would just add that this phobia about "judgements" is a relatively new trend started by the anti-intellectual 60's radicals. [judgementaphobes] No other culture or generation has adopted such a looney view. Unfortunately, it has penetrated some circles of our society.

MelodyLande, my ‘truth’ is only based on what the Holy Bible teach me about it... Please read the following verses I’ve taken from the New Testament:

Mt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Lk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1Cor 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Jms 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Jms 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Jms 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Suzet,

When you quote scripture, its real important to quote it in CONTEXT, lest you give a false impression. Scripture is not the cafeteria program where you pick and choose verses out of context to suit your personal tastes.

For example, you posted the following TWO verses in an attempt to prove your personal opinion [it says nothing of the sort]:

Mt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And then you stopped. Why?

Because you know that if folks saw the next verses that it says something entirely different than what you are saying? It is not a admonition against judging at all, it an admonition against HYPOCRISY:

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

See, it doesn't say not to judge at all. It says remove the plank from your eye BEFORE YOU JUDGE, lest you be a hypocrite.

Very different from the picture you are trying to present. And I won't address any of the other scriptures you posted because none of them say what you are trying to say.

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us not to judge. In fact, we have a mandate to judge with righteous judgement. It's preposterous to suggest that its a SIN to say that a person who murders is a MURDERER and you can't possibly substantiate such a claim.

John 7
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Ephesians 5
11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.


Proverbs 19
28 An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

See, it doesn't say not to judge at all. It says remove the plank from your eye BEFORE YOU JUDGE, lest you be a hypocrite.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melodylane, on the thread I’ve posted last week, I received the following reply from Standing Together regarding this issue. Since I share the same viewpoint and believe system than this poster regarding this issue, I’m will copy and past the post here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The lesson I learned from Jesus' teachings on judgments, when he talked about removing the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck out of someone else's, was that how can we tell someone else, how can we point out someone else's sins when ours are no better?

A speck and a plank are two different things. He didn't say remove your own speck, meaning that you're doing the same exact thing he is so you need to worry about yourself first before you tell him about his, he said remove your plank. Being hypocritical is when you tell someone else not to do something yet you do it yourself. In that case, I understand ML's point, but I think what Jesus was getting at was that we're all guilty of SOMETHING, therefore, what right do we have to point out someone else's flaws, sins, whatever, when we're no better ourselves. Yes, our sins are DIFFERENT, but no less sinful.

The Pharisees were telling people, You can't come worship because of this..., You can't come worship because of that..., yet Jesus tried to point out to them that NO ONE is sin-free. We ALL need God as much as the next guy. So what right did THEY have to not allow people to worship JUST BECAUSE they were sinners? What he wanted the Pharisees to see was that we are ALL sinners.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MelodyLane, remember, we don’t talk about civil judgment here. (The difference between civil and moral judgment was already explained to you by Plumb Bob on other posts). MelodyLane, since WE ALL are sinners and no ones sins is greater than the other, who are we to morally judge another person? But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Rom 14:10) There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? (Jms 4:12).

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I dont think this debate is helping eric much. There is no need to discuss whether he was right or wrong, or what the bible says about it. He does not need to be judged, nor does he need a torrent of literary evidence to explain why he shouldnt be judged.

We all know an A is wrong, and we all know that to judge people is wrong! Lets leave it at that. If eric's posts spark a religious reaction from you, you are entitled to your opinion, but if it's not constructive, keep quiet!

I am interested in hearing how eric is doing lately, how his wife is and how he is dealing with the guilt. How are you, eric?

MB should be a place where ANYONE can come for help, and not fear sparking a theological debate over their actions.

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: ks2001 ]</small>

E,

How are you doing?
didn't see you around on the weekend. Hope you're doing well.

Ks,,
I just got to work and checked up on the post.

Me,wife and kids did end up going camping for the weekend. I had a good time wife had a good time. We did not discuss our mistakes not one time. We both spent most of our time with the boys and not each other. Not that we were cold to each other,, I mean we talked just not about our past infidelity.

I am hanging tough, it still feels like I have more trouble with w's affair than she does with mine. She still has not appeared upset with my actions.

Most of my thoughts are centered on ensuring NC with OM. She has broke her NC promise to me and I know OM is not out of the picture yet. I have moved back in my home simply because I cannot protect her and my children if I am not there.
It should also make it more difficult for W to continue contact with OM.

I think I am getting into the numbing stage. There is not any show of emotion from me lately,, good or bad to my wife.

Who knows what will happen to us,, I just hope when enough time goes by I am able to be a good person, and not some jelous man that every woman would not want in their life.

KS2001,

I agree with you, but if you have read the whole thread, you will see that we have actually apologized to Eric for high jacking his thread, but that Eric himself gave us permission to continue with the debate. However, I have decided to stop this since I have said everything I wanted to say to the other poster... I just want to make clear to you that this debate wasn’t about Eric at all, this debate just happen to start in this particular thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Eric, my apologies to you again – on my part I’m done with this debate now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, once again you have twisted scripture out of context and I would like to show you how. Instead of continuing here, why not email me at dana100@cablelynx.com if you want me to show you how?

I also don't want to hijack eric's thread any more than it has been but I do feel an obligation to show you where you have, once again, misinterpreted a very CLEAR scripture. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

eric n.,

I hope you don't mind a FWW posting to you. I am glad you had a nice camping trip. even if there was no talk about the "important" things, that is a good experience now that only you two have.

I have followed your story and I really don't know what to say. It doesn't make sense, but your wife is not going to seem to care about your mistake. She is too wrapped up in herself, and b/c she sounds like she is still involved, it probably helps her with her guilt. My husband and I have actually talked about that.

Until the OM is completely out of the picture, expect very weird behavior. I have had NC for only a couple weeks now, (he called about a notebook he has of our personal training), and it has taken this long to even begin to see anything for what it really is. If I were still talking to him, honestly in any way, I know I would be right back to the DUH, DUH, DUH stage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That may make no sense, but that's because it doesn't.

You sound like a good guy. Sorry you are in this position. I won't hijack again. Blessings.

Pam

Runaway,

Maybe you can tell me something, or any other FWW out there.

How can my wife tell me how much she loves me and how sorry she is for what she did, and is willing to do anything not to loose me,, all the stuff that would show me she loves me. Then still not be strong enough to decline phone calls from this low life. I mean my wife is so beautiful and I just dont get it. "How can this type of person have my wife in such a weak state of mind". Why cant she just hang up on him if he calls. I wonder if resraining order is a good option. It did not do any good for the other marriage he broke up. It did not do any good for his ex wife who he also betrayed by having an affair. If its a physical attraction which it has to be to some pretty good degree considering the details of her PA. What in the world does she see in me.. I am the clean cut, no body piercings, tattoos, drug free type, I wonder if this thug used drugs to seduce my wife and maybe its the drugs she is addicted to and not him. Could W have a drug problem?? and what do you think would be her reaction if I brought home a urine test kit and askes her to pee in a cup? So many people tell me its this Bad boy fantasy that some Married women can develope during their lives. I just dont buy it.

Hi eric
Glad you had a good weekend, I think you are doing the right thing moving back in. It prevents you making the same mistake, as well as preventing WW having contact with OM.

Your wife may not feel she has a right to be upset. She is probably feeling hurt but does not want to show it due to guilt. You need to help her open up. You are both as guilty as each other in this: it is not about scoring points.

You need to come together and help each other through this. When she ends contact with OM, she will experience withdrawal, and you need to be strong enough to comfort her. You also need to be strong enough to comfort your children and make them feel loved.

I have a lot of hope for you, because I can tell you are a good person who loves his family very much. A Man in the true sense of the word.

Sending lots of love

She is emotionally weak and still in the fog. Plan A will help the fog to eventually lift. One day she will be asking herself the very same questions.

Dont jump to conclusions about drugs without any evidence. This will only lead to a LB.

MelodyLane, I've send you a reply to this thread

eric n.,

These are tough questions. If you notice how early I am in this with NC, I still do not know all the answers.

First, I have to say to all the BS out there that what I am about to say does not EXCUSE IN ANY WAY my choices. It is what I am learning and what I have kind of known about myself for a while.

My H and I met in college. He was my first love. He was also my first sexual experience. I was 18. I have been with him ever since.

Due to some really cruddy things in my past(no excuses again), I have not always had the best self-image. My husband and my roommate in college tried to get me to do the Killians Red girl contest. I would have never done it and they knew that. I really would have had NO chance, but the point is I have always driven my husband crazy by not listening to him when he tells me he thinks I am beautiful. I heard you call your W that in your post. It makes no sense why it is not enough sometimes from the ones that love us.

She did pick you. She does like the clean cut type. She is escaping. I don't know from what. She has picked the total opposite of you to do it with. My guess is(and this is a guess) that her self-worth could be a lot better. These OMs can be really smooth talkers. They know what to say.

My OM is a trainer. He said and did all the right things. We were friends for 3 1/2 months before anything happened. He started slowly by compliments. He would even say things like, "You know you can tell me anything." I have always had good boundaries, so I trusted myself. I found him very attractive, but I never imagained he would respond to me at all. That gave me a strong sense of safety.

The truth is that he stroked my emotions, and he became an escape for me. A fantasy. Nothing more. He is not the same kind of guy as my husband and that made it more of an escape.

I am rambling. There is no excuse for the pain your W has caused you. There is no real good "reason" she is attracted to this OM. My gut tells me she really lacks something within herself. She is just looking in the wrong place to fill it. To numb herself.

She still picked you. I still picked my H. I have had time to think a lot. My H asked me if I loved the OM. I thought so. But when I have had time to really think about him, he is not the kind of guy I would pick for life! He was an escape and a fantasy. My selfish, low self-image girl, thought..."wow...he likes me?" That felt good. REALLY STUPID, but good. He played me. Your W is being played. She will wake up.

I hope for you it is soon. As soon as there is a way to get this OM out of the picture, the more your wife will have the chance to see what a creep he is. Until then, she may not see it for some time.

Sorry to ramble. It is so hard to take a good look at the truth as I post it. Yuck. Hope it helps just a bit.

Pam

Also, eric n.,

The OM is a predator. That was the hardest for me to acknowledge. I don't know about a restraining order. If I were you, I would consider it, but it would be a major LB.

I am so sorry. It's not over yet. She is saying she doesn't want to lose you. She is saying she loves you. That is a lot!

don't give up yet!

Ks,,,,

OK then do you think it would be in order to politely ask her if she ever did drugs with him. I dont believe she would tell me if she did because before we got married well,,,,,, even right after we met I told her how strongly I was against drugs,,, you see drugs cost me my mom when I was 14 yrs old. I saw what they did to her And I swore I would never be with any woman who got hooked on drugs,, just my promise to myself.

I just cannot help but feel theres something else involved besides sex and attraction.

I dont know........... maybe im just reaching and digging for more hurt!

I also still dont understand why I am just supposed to sit around until she gets OM out of her system, wouldnt I be telling her that it is ok to continue to talk to him on the phone.

My mondays are allways bad because it was on monday that she saw him while I was at work.

Oh and as far as evidence all I know is that The OM uses drugs on a pretty steady basis. So there is a good chance he persuaded her to try them.