First thank you for at least keeping the door
open for me. Only time will prove me not a
troll.
There is something I wanted to ask/maybe get
clarification on, if you don't mind.
What is it about what I have written that makes
you believe I hold the TOW mindset? Yes, I did
post yesterday that take me back 3 years- that
I FEARED I would do the same thing. Not with
anyone else but only with my H. I'm still
working on that- still trying to discover why
I was willing to sacrifice what I knew in my
heart to be the right thing. Why was I so needy,
so deperate? I'm still exploring that- still
trying to figure it all out.Before this happened-
I was- in belief- about marriage and fidelity
like most of the people here- I'm trying to
work my way back to that place.

Well ... let's see... OW mind-set:

Your stated code of ethics ---> "personal responsibility and choices" .... This remark is rather at the shallow end of the ethical pool, don'cha'think? For you, there is no right or wrong ... just various choices. Your "code" allows you freedom to pursue any unethical and even perhaps mean-spirited choices ... as long as you say to yourself "I did this because I chose it". Thereby "taking responsibility". (in your mind)

You "stand for" ..... essentially .... nothing.

You do not stand-up and speak out for the sacredness of mariage vows. MARRIAGE VOWS ... as a principle are only meaningful to you when convenient to your life. Your "sacredness" is opportunistic. Not a dearly held personal value.

You said that on TOW you do this:

"Advise {OW} not to settle for less than what they want" ..... NOMATTER if what they want to do is to to destroy "sacred" vows.

See.... you really do NOT beluieve in the sacredness of vows.... only the sacredness of selfish desires.

You stated you sacrificed your integrity in order to have the affair. And this marriage is the fruit of your lack of integrity.

See your problem more clearly now?

Pep

<small>[ June 16, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

You said

"You do not stand-up and speak out for the sacredness of mariage vows. MARRIAGE VOWS ... as a principle are only meaningful to you when convenient to your life. Your "sacredness" is opportunistic. Not a dearly held personal value."

I don't think I have that right, given how my
marriage came about. It is what I believe, I
haven't earned the right to speak out. Who would
listen, believe, not call me a hypocrite at
this point.

In regards to my history at TOW. By not settling
for less- if you have read there...often there
are women who want more from the relationship
then what they are getting. My advise has often
been- if you don't want, can't live as the OW
anymore- get out. If MM wants to be with you-let
him leave his M. I understand your point on this
one. For you (and MB) a MM leaving his marriage
should never be.

" My advise has often
been- if you don't want, can't live as the OW
anymore- get out."

And my advice would be ...
1. Adultery is always wrong.
2. Even if the OW ~is~ getting what she wants, she should get out.
3. It is morally reprehensible to ignore the sacredness of anyone's marriage vows.


See the difference?

Pep

Pepperband,

Yes I agree.

But I go back to my 2nd paragraph on my above
post- "who at this point would listen to me".

Please reread that second paragraph.

I don't care who "listens" to you .... really. I could go onto the TOW forum and say exactly what I just said to you ... do you ~honestly~ think OW give a rat's [censored] what Pepperband from MB thinks?

noooooooooooo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I care what you stand for. (not who listens to you) Develop your own integrity and live by it ... then you'll have something worth listening to.

If you stand for something, you live that way.

Right now, you stand for nothing.

Pep

I feel like we are talking in circles...

I am married- I need to embrace the role of
W. I believe you said that I should stay married.
I am reading here and trying to learn. I have
owned up to my role in all this and I am actively
working through counseling to get back on track.
Right now I am respecting XW wishes for no
contact.

So from where I stand now- what more do you want?
Just to keep on hammering on- when I have already
admitted my wrong doing and working to repair
my integrity and hopefully not make similar
mistakes in my marriage.

Is the focus never to move forward to just keep
beating me up for the past?

"So from where I stand now- what more do you want?
Just to keep on hammering on- when I have already
admitted my wrong doing and working to repair
my integrity and hopefully not make similar
mistakes in my marriage."

I apologize for being obtuse.

Here it is, my opinion.

I think you should quit TOW. I think your marriage nor your integrity are well served by that site ... as you stated... you cannot "stand up" for marriages there.

Did you know, there are other former OW married to their affair partner here on MB?

I will not tell you names... but there are... and some very good and happy people I might add.

Quit posting on TOW.

That's what I think you need to do....

Pep

May I butt in on this conversation?

{Taking the opportunity to speak her piece before anyone can object...}

Paige: I think what pepperband is saying is that your integrity/principles/values seem to be a "moving target" so to speak. When you were the OW, your principles were "To what I want be true." Now that you are the wife, "what Paige wants" is to feel secure in the vows between herself and her H (previously someone else's H). What if someone else decides what they want is your H? What if he decides he wants her more than you? Do you want him to honor his (and her) desires, or do you want him to honor his vows?

Either vows and the institution of marriage as a permanent bond has value above that of transigent desires and emotions, or they don't. It doesn't matter if you assign that worth because of faith, philosophy, logic or just for the heck of it.

Values are exactly that--a value judgment about a particular concept/thing. Value conveys worth. And as everything is not of EQUAL value, it implies PRIORITY. As in "What has the highest value/priority? The sanctity and permanence of one's word or vow, or the desires and wants that are prompted by one's current emotional state?"

MB promotes the concept that HONORING ONE'S WORD and RESPECTING THE PROMISES OF OTHERS in the form of marital vows is a higher value (i.e. takes priority) over PURSUING ONE'S DESIRES. The prevalent attitude on TOW promotes the concept that HONORING ONE'S DESIRES takes priority over RESPECTING THE PROMISES/COMMITMENTS OF OTHERS.

Just because your current desires prompted by your current situation is for you and your H to obey your vows, that doesn't mean you necessarily prioritize obedience to vows as a concept. Do you see the difference?

And the argument that "no one would listen" is a distraction and a cop out. It's akin to saying a recovering alcoholic shouldn't warn people of the dangers of alcohol or take a stand against alcoholism because they once abused alcohol. Who better to know than one who has learned from experience? Alcoholics Anonymous works because it IS former alcoholics who are the mentors and teachers.

Either you genuinely value vows in and of themselves (in which case you should probably stop encouraging women on TOW to regard their desires higher than someone else's vows, if you haven't already), or you value your current vows because it's what you want and to heck with everyone else's.

You say you are "working to get back to your previous integrity." I assume that means that you once believed that vows were a higher priority than desires, you changed your values to accomodate what you wanted, and now you want to change them back because, again, it suits what you want.

"Taking a stand" as pepperband put it is saying "these are the principles I value regardless of my personal situation or the situation of whomever is asking me about my values. These are the principles I value whether I am listened to or not. These are the principles I value whether anyone else agrees or not." It is rejecting situational ethics in favor of principles that don't change every time your emotional state and circumstances change. It is saying "There is such a thing as true north. It's not all relative. And it doesn't depend on your personal point of view."

You may now return to your previously scheduled deprogramming.

You may now return to your previously scheduled deprogramming.

Kat LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I loved your post Kat.

Pep

<small>[ June 16, 2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Paige,

Since I just posted something similar to someone else, I thought I would repeat what Pep and Kat have said from a different point of view.

You took vows to "love" your H, through...until death do us part." Right?

Ok, here is the issue. Some people think love is a "feeling" as in "I am in love with you", or the ever popular "I love you, but I am not IN LOVE with you." The later is a feeling. If people go with their feelings and if that is there bedrock source of decision making you can see how the people in TOW get into some serious trouble.

Now if you believe love is a verb, then no matter how you feel you are vowing to your H that you WILL LOVE him. You are saying "I will actively love and respect you for the rest of your life or mine." That is commitment based on an ACTION you will take and can control.

The issue then comes down to what has someone commited to and how much do they value it? If it is to hang in there as long as it "feels" right, it is NOT much of a commitment in my book. If it is to hang in no matter what it feels like, then that is a commitment in my book.

Does this make sense?

In both cases someone could "honor" there commitment, but in one case it is not much more than "I will be nice as long as I feel like it." And the other is "I will be nice, no matter what."

So when you and Pep are talking commitment, values, basis for decision making, to my feeble mind, it comes down to how serious you are and how much you really feel you are committing to.

The marriage vows are said and performed because the assumption is one of the "deep" commitment, not just while things are good. If ones values system does NOT embrace such a level of commitment, then the concept of a "real" marriage is moot.

So have I confused things further? It seems to me what Pep is wondering and questioning, is if you can easily work in the world of TOW, are you really committed to the marriage and do you understand what you said when you made those vows? Where is your value system with respect to deep commitments.

Must go, hope I didn't confuse things too badly.

God Bless,

JL

I have always believed love to be an action
word. Loving my husband means doing my best to
behave, act and react in a loving matter (tall
order).
My vows mean that- I am commited.

I also think that most people see it that when
they are first married. Over time, they justify
the love as a feeling alone crap.
When we went to Engagement Encounter- we were
given an anology of marriage as a coaster ride
of elation, romance, disillusion that we were
going to have to focus on our commitment and
ride out the disillusionist lows and take
advantage of the good highs. That these extremes
usually are most extreme in the first years and
gradually flatin out a bit over time but that
it will probably always be an existing cycle.

I guess what is scary is that I think A's generally happen during the low points, when one or both partner in the M is not being committed, is not focused on the promises they made - the commitments and vows.

They don't want to be on the low. They want the high. And they look for it elsewhere, outside the M.

The danger is that your H left his W at a low, most likely. You said you expect many lows in these first years. How are you going to handle those lows?

And by posting on TOW, you may encourage the very woman who wants to take advantage of the low in your M, to have her own high with your H. Hm.

I think you need a little more forward thinking than you currently have going on.

IMHO.

SS

In my 3 year history at TOW- I have never encouraged anyone to pursue and affair. Now you
may argue that my very existance there is doing
that- but in terms of what I wrote- I was
supportive of the person and their pain, like
MB I believe you have to keep the focus on you-
not the other person- you can change no one but
yourself.
I think in my H prior marriage- there was pretty
much no communication from the get go- my H is
the one that has a tough time communicating- which
means I need to be extra aware and sensitive to
providing him a safe place to be honest. There
were also documented issues of domestic violence-
her to him. I was his one and only A. It probably
sounds like I'm justifying- I'm trying not to-
I only wanted to express that there was more going
on over a 10 year marriage then just my involvement at the very end.
In his first M, his wife left him- no affair
no big touchstone issue- accept maybe her age-
she was 18- he was 30.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In regards to my history at TOW. By not settling for less- if you have read there...often there are women who want more from the relationship then what they are getting. My advise has often been- if you don't want, can't live as the OW anymore- get out. If MM wants to be with you-let him leave his M. I understand your point on this one. For you (and MB) a MM leaving his marriage should never be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am thinking that you should include yourself now in the last sentence - for YOU a MM leaving his marriage should never be.

I do think you have smoothed over a lot of rough ugly edges in your explanation of your H's past M. It is not for my benefit that I say that to you. It is for your own that you should take off your justification glasses and look at the cold, hard truth.

What goes around, comes around, and you are now on the receiving end. And we are pro-M on this site. And we are trying to assist you with what you say your goals are.

Pay attention to what the others are saying to you. They do know what they are speaking of.

SS

Hi Paige,

You know, I used to fantasize about how life would've been for me and the OW had we gone your route. Early on, all I could see is how wonderful it would be for ME. I would finally have the happiness I deserved.

Today, I see the horrendous damage that would've resulted. I would've destroyed a relationship with my kids, had to be step dad to hers. We would've had to learn to interface with ex's and deal with general societal shunning...some of which you are experiencing here.

You are still on the honeymoon. Someday, you'll find yourself truly having to face how you got where you are. I know people who went through just what you are. It's takng a ton of counseling to help them now.

What can you do to atone? I tend to side with Mr. Java. Write the apology letter. Then...both of you focus on finding out what caused you to do this horrible thing and change it so that you'll never find yourself in it again.

Both of you have peeled the skin off destroying relationships. Now that you know it's survivable and can even have a "happy ending", how will you keep it from happening to you in the future?

Even if you're not a Bible fan, I'd encourage you to read about David and Bathsheba. I'll let read the story yourself. I think you'd find it both enlightening and encouraging.

Low