After I’ve started the thread: Questions regarding romantic love in M, Turtlehead have posted some questions on this topic herself. No one has responded to her post yet and I’ve decided to copy and paste Turtlehead’s post in a new thread. Turtlehead, I hope you don’t mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Here it is:

This is a great thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Onlywords:
<strong>I still am wondering about the romantic feelings side of marriage...if that is a fleeting immature love, then why does this MB site have a guaranteed way to make you fall in love with your spouse again? Why is it something that is so important to so many people, the loss of which we grieve, the thing we crave so badly, but are told will not last and will be replaced by a different but deeper love? If so, then why bother trying to get back those feelings? So confusing.</strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Onlywords phrased very well what I have also wondered, and what Suzet is apparently struggling with herself. I have questions, too.

I'm willing to believe that the "in love" or infatuation or dizzying new-love stuff is ephemeral. After all, you're in love with the unknown, and mostly with what hopes you're projecting onto the newly found object of your desires. So of course this can't last. This is what I call infatuation.

I hear long-time married couples talk about how love waxes and wanes, and I'm willing to believe that, too.

But if that early stuff is fleeting, WHAT is the long-lasting love waxing into occasionally? And the guaranteed way to make you fall in love with your spouse -- WHAT kind of "in love" is that?

I've been in two long term relationships (16 years and 9 years) and they both started very high, then kind of roller-coastered downhill from then on. Ups and downs but overall a decided downhill trend.

I love my H. He's my best friend. I enjoy his company. Overall I trust him, I'm comfortable with him. But I rarely feel any little adrenaline rush for him any more. Occasionally he'll say or do something really sweet, and I feel that heart-tug. I think that's what onlywords and Suzet are wondering about, and I think that's what this site claims to be able to recapture. That special "us"-world that couples sometimes feel. Not the great business partners, best fraternity/sorority buds feelings, but that feeling that excludes the rest of the world and only exists between the couple. That little stomach flip, that little heart skip. The little invisible strings that always run across time and space from one heart to the other, tying the two together. I feel that sometimes with my H, but rarely. And it grows less and less over the years. And I want it back.

I'm not talking about dizzying ecstasy - I'm talking about a calm, serene, special "knowing".

--------------------
W (me) 43, H 48
WH/BW DDay 9 Feb 2002, EA died on its own 5/2002, NC 1/2003
WW/BH DDay 15 Oct 2003, 2 wk EA, NC 15 Oct 2003 & 13 Nov 2003
One false recovery, doing better this time?

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

That rush of adrenaline, the one that used to make our heart skip a beat whenever we were near our loved one, is just the beginning of what love really is.

To see an older couple hand in hand, not being giddy but displaying true love, it better than any momentary rush.

Love, real love, lasts. A time weathered quality like no other. It can be between the spouses, love of parent to child and visa versa. Whatever it is, it is lasting. Like good friendships, though we may not see each other for a long time, when we do get together, it is like picking up where we left off. Caring takes over where the adrenaline wore off. That to me is more important.

For those who go out to have an A to get a rush, they often find that rush also eventually wears out. Yet what is left? Nothing lasting. Instead guilt, sadness and deep sorrow.

Love of one's family does not depend on a rush. Like a sugar rush, it feels good for the moment but you can't build a meal on it. The real core of love and living with love, is it's test of time.

JMHO,
L.

Suzet,

How thoughtful of you to repost my post! Thank you.

Orchid, thank you for taking time to respond. I understand the aderenaline rush of infatuation and that it is fleeting.

What I don't really "get" is the "in love" feelings this site claims to be able to revive. Many posters say they are now more "in love" with their spouse than before, due to having learned good M techniques. My own experience is that my love for my H is turning into a good business partnership, or a best-friendship. Not what I'd call "in love" though.

Could you please re-read the initial post and reply again? I would greatly appreciate it.

Hi Turtlehead,
Do you care if I kind of ramble on about this one?

I understand that there are lots of books about this (your topic) and that you are not the only one that has questions about it. I have not really read any of them, so I am just going to give you my take on it.

It seems to me that there are two kinds of love. The giddy kind we feel at first, and the business partner kind. Well, kind of anyway. Some would call that first love "infatuation" It can be, and it is seldom entered in to with all the facts. "Love is blind" comes to mind - and boy is it ever - which is why A's seem to only last a short time. That second kind, the business arrangement is - well it's efficient. You do this for me, and I will do that for you. What a nice way to go through life - getting help when you need it. You change the oil in the car, and I will do the wash. It kind of feels good to have someone to help us, and it is also kinda nice to have someone to do things for. It seems to fill a hole in our lives to serve others, even if they don't appreciate it like they should.

So, you have a hard time merging the two concepts of love. Dr Harley writes his material from a man's point of view. It makes more sense to men (generally, but I am not saying it is always like this) than it does to women. When I first came to this web site, we were doing well with the business arrangement part of this, but the romantic part was only in my mind. My W thought it was over long ago........and that's just the way it is.

Why did you marry? So you could file your income taxes jointly? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Or did you want someone to be with? I married my W so I could spend more time with her. I loved that giddy feeling, I missed her when I wasn't with her.

Fast foreword two and a half years after coming to this web site. That giddy feeling is back, she loves to see me come home from work, and we can't wait for our weekly date nights.

I think I have much more to say, but I need to go for tonight. This has to do with Dr Harleys 4 rules for a successful marriage. Have you read them - and would you care to comment on your understanding of them?

Yes, I think this is just a start - as long as you don't mind me going on and on. Will try and come back some more on Friday.

SS

still seeking,

Delighted to have you comment! I'm SO open to input on this.

I totally understand the infatuation and know it doesn't last. Don't expect it to, don't want it to.

I also understand the "business partner" "good buddy" and want MORE than that from my M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or did you want someone to be with? I married my W so I could spend more time with her. I loved that giddy feeling, I missed her when I wasn't with her.

Fast foreword two and a half years after coming to this web site. That giddy feeling is back, she loves to see me come home from work, and we can't wait for our weekly date nights. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS is what I want in my M!! I get teeny glimpses of it from time to time, so I think it's possible for Mr Turtlehead and me to build our M into something like this. I believe I have realistic expectations - I don't expect us to *always* be looking forward to time together, but I think that we should be most of the time.

My H says I have unrealistic expectations, that I'm looking for 24x7 infatuation. He says Ms always burn down (and to a point, they do). I feel like I'm in a business M and I want more than that. I'm willing to work for more than that. I know we'll have disputes. I know we'll get overtired and overbusy. I still think we can be closer than we are. I'm looking for raw, intimate, safe honesty.

I'm not sure if my H feels we have more than a business M, or if he thinks that's all he can expect from an M after several years. I'll explore this with him. If he feels he has more, then I'm doing a decent job at being his wife. If that's all he expects, I'll see if he will buy-in to the "more" expectation. Odd, that we've only ever asked "are you happy" and not discussed this in more depth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This has to do with Dr Harleys 4 rules for a successful marriage. Have you read them - and would you care to comment on your understanding of them? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read four guidelines for successful negotiation, is this what you're referring to?

still seeking,Delighted to have you comment! I'm SO open to input on this. I totally understand the infatuation and know it doesn't last. Don't expect it to, don't want it to.I also understand the "business partner" "good buddy" and want MORE than that from my M.

I forgot to tell you - I have been married 27 years, so having the strong feelings return has been a real blessing. It really can be like it was at first - only you two (and we also) have a history of being together, and so it is even better. Shared experiences over time can make it even stronger.

THIS is what I want in my M!! I get teeny glimpses of it from time to time, so I think it's possible for Mr. Turtlehead and me to build our M into something like this. I believe I have realistic expectations - I don't expect us to *always* be looking forward to time together, but I think that we should be most of the time.

It has to do with the 4 rules - I'll list a link below. It is possible to have those feelings, that is what Dr Harley does/has been doing.

This is the link to what I was referring to. It talks about recovering from an A, but it is the same for any marriage. You need to go way down the page until you see the title (as the link below) to see the four rules, the rest at the top of the page sets it up. (gives background)

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery


My H says I have unrealistic expectations, that I'm looking for 24x7 infatuation. He says Ms always burn down (and to a point, they do). I feel like I'm in a business M and I want more than that. I'm willing to work for more than that. I know we'll have disputes. I know we'll get overtired and overbusy. I still think we can be closer than we are. I'm looking for raw, intimate, safe honesty. I'm not sure if my H feels we have more than a business M, or if he thinks that's all he can expect from an M after several years. I'll explore this with him. If he feels he has more, then I'm doing a decent job at being his wife. If that's all he expects, I'll see if he will buy-in to the "more" expectation. Odd, that we've only ever asked "are you happy" and not discussed this in more depth.

No, you don't have unrealistic expectations. Often one (because of needs, or temperament) feels more strongly about improving the marriage than the other. When I found MB my W was actually scared to try because she was afraid of being hurt. She had resigned herself to "this is the way it is, and you just have to live with it." She was distant, because I had a problem with LB's. I LB'd because she was distant and I didn't know what to do about it. Bad, very bad. The cycle has to be broken, and the four rules are how you break it.

It can be a bad downward cycle like I was in, or just a lack of intimacy like what you describe. You can change that. I had to SHOW my W what I meant by changing my own bad habits. I learned to meet her needs, and she began to respond by meeting mine. Things are better here - Now.

So.........read the link, and come back and lets talk some more. It really works, I promise.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems to me that there are two kinds of love. The giddy kind we feel at first, and the business partner kind. Well, kind of anyway. Some would call that first love "infatuation" It can be, and it is seldom entered in to with all the facts. "Love is blind" comes to mind - and boy is it ever - which is why A's seem to only last a short time. That second kind, the business arrangement is - well it's efficient. You do this for me, and I will do that for you. What a nice way to go through life - getting help when you need it. You change the oil in the car, and I will do the wash. It kind of feels good to have someone to help us, and it is also kinda nice to have someone to do things for. It seems to fill a hole in our lives to serve others, even if they don't appreciate it like they should. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find that since being in recovery, our M has taken on a bit of both "types" of love. There are times that its the business arrangement kind, and others it's the infatuation kind. We usually find ourselves in the infatuation kind when one or the other has done something esp. nice for the other. That's the trick to keeping up the infatuation type of love, I think. Sometimes it's hard when you're heavy in the day to day business love but if one takes the time to step out of it and reach out, the infatuation love will peek its head out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi All,

Hope you don't mind that I add my two cents worth.

In the Greek language there are three different words for love...

Eros: Erotic Love (Sexual Attraction)

Phileo: What I will call Platonic Love. Philadelphia, the city of Brotherly Love's name, is drawn from this root.

Agape: The mature, true, I will die for you, will be there when you're puking your guts out, I love you in jeans or a gown, it's okay if you don't want to have sex tonight, because I know you love me type of love. It's the "settled in" love that some of you talk about. Some fear it to be boring, but it doesn't have to be. My W and I have entered our second courting stage. Partially because of my A, and partially because the kids are old enough now that we do most things as a couple, rather than with kids in tow. We still do family stuff when we can, but with work schedules and all, we have more time for just the two of us.

Some state that all relationships at least progress through all three types of love; some argue that all three are necessary for a healthy love life all THROUGH your life. I don't know the answer to that.

Two books that I would definately recommend that deal with this topic, and are highly regarded here at MB are:

"The Road Less Traveled", by M. Scott Peck

and

"The 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman

Both did wonderful things for my marriage, and gave both my W and I a better understanding of what true love really is.

Bob

Bob,

I have also read the book "The Road Less Traveled" by M. Scott Peck. It’s indeed an excellent book and helped me tremendously to better understand the nature of love and the difference between true love, romantic love and feelings of love!

To anyone who haven’t read the book yet, but are interested, here is an extract I’ve send from it on this thread a while ago.

Suzet,

You really should get and read "The Five Love Languages". It is a marriage saving book, in my opinion.

I kind of think of the difference between "The Road Less Traveled" (TRLT) and "The Five Love Languages" (TFLL) this way...

TRLT helped me understand my love in a generic form. It helped me see that I was expecting too much from love in general.

TFLL, on the other hand, is a very specific book about the ways people give and receive love. For some it is Acts of Service. For some it is Gifts.

It is important for many couples because many people try to show their love to their spouse through their own love language, not understanding that their spouse may speak another language.

For example...for me Physical Touch is a strong love language. Not just sex, but a hand to the back of the neck while driving, a hand on the arm during church, etc., are all STRONG indicators for me.

My W, on the other hand, is an "Acts of Service" type person. For me to show her my love, the best thing I can do is to DO something. Fix the fence, help with the chores, make a new "toolbox" for her to carry her garden tools around in. And she shows her love through constantly trying to "do more". I have to force her at time to sit down and rest. This is especially stressful at Christmas, when she thinks everything has to be perfect, and she has to do ALL these things, to try and show her love and make Christmas perfect. Cookies have to be made, gifts wrapped especially nicely, parties hosted, etc., etc., etc.

Until I read the book, I thought that she should respond to my touch...since that's what I respond to. And I didn't understand her need to do so much, as I didn't express my love that way.

So many couples need to read this book. The ones who have, that I have spoken to, have RAVED about the results in their marriages.

So...SA, huh? W and I hope to get to Kenya and some surrounding areas within the next few years. I work at a Zoo and my W is a biologist, and animal preservation and observation are a common love of ours. Next year we're going to the Galopogos Islands for ten days!

Talk to you later,

Bob <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob,

Thanks for your post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> From what you telling me it really sounds if the “The Five Love Languages” is a must read book for every couple. I’ve heard about that book a few times on these boards in the past. A while ago, someone have posted a website link on that book and the link has provided a short summary of the five languages of love. Now that you have reminded me of that book again, I think that book might be a solution to the problem I currently experiencing in my M and Turtlehead is also struggling with. I’ve put the link to my previous thread on the beginning of this thread if you’re interested to read it. I think my H’s greatest Love Language is also Physical Touch because he is a very affectionate person etc. Affection is also very important to me, but like your W, “actions” and doing things to help me is also strong indicators to me. To me, intimate Communication and total Honesty and Openness with my H is my 2 biggest ENs, but I’m not sure how this 2 needs will be referred to as a Love Language in that book. Anyway, I will make a plan to get hold of that book as soon as possible!

I’m living in South-Africa (I was just using SA as an abbreviation). SA is almost on the opposite side of the world, so that is way I’m sending posts when most of the other posters is in dream-land, and by the time most of the posters is posting I’ve already knock off from work! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tomorrow this institution is closing for 2 weeks (vacation), so I won’t be able to post much (only once a week or so) during the following 2 weeks.

You said you and your W hope to get to Kenya and some surrounding areas within the next few years and next year you’re going to the Galopogos Islands for ten days - that sounds so nice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> My whole life I haven’t visit any other countries and my H really want me to see and visit certain places and countries with him when we can afford it one or other time. Before me and my H started dating more than 8 years ago, he went overseas for a month and visited Portugal, France and Italy with a friend. Many of our friends and family have immigrated to countries such as Nieu-Zealand, Australia, London and Ireland for economic reasons. Nieu-Zealand and Australia have similar weather and climate as SA. However, SA is such a beautiful country and me & my H don’t know if we really want to settle in another country away from family and friends we still have here...

You said you work at a Zoo and your W is a biologist…it sounds like very interesting jobs! I’m working as an Administrator for a Tertiary Institution and my H used to work as a PC and Network Supporter (ITS Technician) at the same institution. Currently he's running his own computer business. The business is still very young and in the beginning phase, but we hope with God's help, things will progress positively. Currently I’m studying Psychology since it is my main interest, so I will see where the future goes regarding my career.

Bob, I see you don't have a signature line... Don't you have a link where you have posted your story and how it happened that you started posting to these forums on MB? Since you're also one of my MB "friends" now, I would like to read about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hear from you later,
Suzet

I've read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and it is a fantastic book. Very easy read.

I'm a touch/verbal person. Can't decide which is stronger so I think I'm a mix. I love to read H's writing - he's a talented writer, which is one of the things that greatly attracted me in the first place. Descriptive, insightful, humourous, good spelling and punctuation. I know that to some those things are silly but to me they make a BIG difference.

The door swings both ways, though. To me, words can be a powerful source of love, or a powerful source of pain. Disrespectful Judgments hit me deeper and harder than they do most people. I have learned to "laugh it off" to some extent but I still do get my feelings hurt more than most would.

My H is an "acts of service" guy. I can tell because he shows his love by keeping the computers up to date and running well. He's the one that fills the gas tanks, that fixes something broken around the house. Since reading the book I've been more eager to paint a room that needs painting, get up early with the dogs, make dinner more often (we used to split it).

I think all couples should read that book. You can read it in no time. It's clear, concise, thorough, and enjoyable.