I doubt any of you remember me from last summer, but to sum it up in a couple of sentences...

Last May my wife cheated on me EA/PA and fessed up to me a few days after the PA began. She continued to see him for a few months and I caught her in several lies all the while keeping to Plan A. She said some really horrible things back then that still plague me to this day. Anyway... I moved out in October at her request and I stopped trying to fix us. I started working on me. We occassionaly saw each other and spent a little time together over the next few months. In Jan I decided I needed to get away so took a trip to Costa Rica. I had a great time and met several guy friends that moved down there and married local girls. Talking to these guys kinda opened my eyes to the crap I'd been taking for years. The day after my return I went and saw a lawyer and started the divorce process. I decided that I needed to move on with my life and that I had married a very destructive and selfish person that would never be satisified with me.

Flash forward.... The waiting period is over, the papers are complete and all they require are her signature and we're done. She refuses to sign them. Not only that but she says she wants me to move home.
I tell her I can't move home unless some reassurances are made that the past won't repeat itself. I tell her that I cannot subject myself to reinvesting in our relationship until some substancial changes are made on her part.
I ask her to see a counselor, she won't. I ask her to go to marriage counseling with me, she doesn't want to. In fact she has come right out and said that she will do nothing to address my issues until I move back in. Emotionally I've gone through heck. To the point where I had myself put on antidepressants last September (I'm an antimed kinda guy). I just got myself off them in March and I'm having a few troubles, but not to the point of going back on them.

We had an email conversation a month ago and basically it came out that she really doesn't accept primary responsibility for what happened and states that I drove her to it. I state in the last email:

"There is never any forgiveness from you, but the point is that I gather you feel justified in what you did. If your answer to that is yes, that you do feel justified and have no assurances that it will never happen again then we have nothing to discuss."

Limbo continues, we go weeks without a single communication. Then all the sudden I get an IM asking why I don't talk to her.


What to do? We are at a chasam and the bridge is out.

In fact she has come right out and said that she will do nothing to address my issues until I move back in.

Don't do this....

Her's is an UNreasonable and very UNcaring demand.

"Do what I say .... put your heart back onto the chopping block ....and then ~maybe~ if you're lucky .... I ~might~ be your wife again. Or, not."

No.

Proceed with the D....

She may be testing your resolve...

She may be wanting to keep you on a string....

She may be 10 minutes away from falling to her knees and begging forgiveness...

But... continue with the divorce... call your attorney and relay information that your W refuses to sign.

Meanwhile .... you could DATE her ... but only if this is something YOU desire.

Just do not move in with her .... not yet.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tell her that I cannot subject myself to reinvesting in our relationship until some substancial changes are made on her part.

I ask her to see a counselor, she won't. I ask her to go to marriage counseling with me, she doesn't want to. In fact she has come right out and said that she will do nothing to address my issues until I move back in.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what we have here is a failing POJA. You want progress before moving in, she wants moving in before progress.

Um, common sense tells me you don't move in with someone who has shown repeatedly through their words and actions that they cannot be trusted to have your best interests in mind.

If you ate at a restaurant several times and got ill each time, would you want to see some improvements before eating there again? Or would you eat there to "prove your trust" that they would one day clean up their act?

If your child had a teacher that ridiculed and belittled them to the point that they were emotionally damaged and you had to pull them out of class, would you want to see the teacher go through some counseling before putting your child back in their class? Or would you put your child back in the class to "prove your trust" that the teacher would make changes?

I could go on with the analogies. You are being reasonable. If your W cannot see this, and if the POJA fails, then you should not feel any guilt about it. Now, if she DOES come around, you'll have to hop in, roll up your sleeves, and do your part of the work! For now, though, you're right to expect some indication that she is willing to change.

As always good advice here. I guess I was just seeking reassurance that I was on the correct course.

Pepperband: Your words speak volumes to me. I sent her an email yesterday stating:

"are you just keeping me on the line till you find someone else to replace me? or until you build enough resentment till you turn all the love into hate?"

her reply was:

"why do you talk like that? stuff like this is what builds negative feelings and resentment. or, are you doing this to convince YOURself??? i don't like talking to you when you talk like this. it turns me off."

This was after 2 weeks of absolute no contact. My WW has always tested me it seems. If she is testing my resolve and I force the divorce then won't that show her I don't care for her anymore and to give up? I still love her, but realize that I cannot give in on this issue. If I do there will be nothing preventing it from happeneing again.


Turtlehead:
Great analogies, really puts it into perspective.

Nice to meet an oldie...last May i was still happy in my marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just curious...did you do a good super dark plan B?

As for you WS...gee...she is one nasty lady. Does not look like she is ready to save the marriage at all. Why is she so mean?

I think you have done enough...it is really time to move on for your sake.

Hi Harry,

I am sitting here thinking. How to reassure you, what do you need reassurance about?

It seems to me you did Plan A, she continued the A.

You were then told to move out, and you did, presumably the A continued.

After months you realize that you have not been treated well in the marriage (could be a bit of the revisionist history that WS's are guilty of or it could be clarity coming to you finally).

You file for divorce, you have little contact with W.

Waiting time is over but she won't sign.

You seem to be sitting and waiting for her to sign (why?)


Her actions.

She has an A.

She continues A after you discover it.

She claims you drove her to the A

She shows no remorse, no "I'm sorries..."

She wants you to move home before considering signing.

My question to her through you, is what have YOU changed that would make her want you back?

Why would she even consider having you back when you clearly haven't changed in her eyes.

Why would she risk such a thing?

You need to ask her this.


My questions to you are:

What has changed with her that you would want her back?

What has she done to suggest that she has changed?

What makes you think that even if you went back the marriage would be better than it was which led to her being unhappy and having an affair?

This is a marriage building site as you know Harry, but it is also about honesty. I think in all honesty as you answer these questions you will know the correct way to go, and I don't think the decision will be close. What ever you decide you will get support here.

However, if it was me, I would be seeing my lawyer and ending this NOW.

I noticed you don't have children and have not been married that long. Hence, you have less invested. My thinking is that her wanting you back "might" be a sign, but her pride won't let her admit what she did was her fault. If she sought help to address this, then she may be worth the effort, but YOU cannot change her or her way of thinking, she has to decide to do that.

So go with the data Harry, that is all you have. She has offered no reassurances, she seems to have done nothing to preserve the marriage, and the data makes a strong arguement. You don't need much more reassurance than that.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Zizzycool: I had an epiphany the other night relating to the last time I was really happy in my marriage. I woke up out of a dream and bam, remembered a period of several weeks that we worked very closely on a project together. I don't know why, but this thought made me very sad.

When we work together we're a team that always comes in first place. Everything seems to fit. It's the other times and the slow spiral down to last year that was our ruin. We stopped working together. Now pride on her part and probably mine as well has brought us to this point.
My plan B was so dark it absorbed particles from the neighboring states.

Just Learning:
The affair I feel is over. My gut tells me it is and my gut has been fairly accurate through this whole thing. I think the last contact was a month before I moved out. The PA was only one time, but the EA was 3 months before and about 4 months after. Do I know this for God's honest truth? No. But my instincts tell me it's true.

There was a brief period, uh... ok make that a single conversation that she said she was sorry for what happened. Since then the sorry's have been absent. That one conversation is very clear in my mind. It happened last fall where she announced "I broke our marriage and I want to fix it, but I can't deal with the guilt". This was followed a couple of days later with her asking me to move out.

She wants me to move home because she feels that we cannot make any progress on our marriage living apart.
She knows I've changed since then in more ways than just outward appearance. She's stated that some of them she likes, but not the distance I keep from her.
How has she changed? I honestly don't know. I just don't see it.

Wow this sounds like alt.support.divorce

Sorry, just an observation. Maybe it is time to force the issue and be done with it. Limbo is not a place that allows one to be content with life. I thought at one time she was the best thing in my life and to a point I still do, but the fear of the pain she's caused forces me to stay away from her.
I've learned that one cannot make another person do anything. I cannot make her change into a person I feel safe with. It's hard letting go of so many dreams while I still have love in my heart, but my reality is that she chooses to not be a healthy person to be with.

Harry,

If you are still NOT sure about what to do, then date her and see if you can figure out where things really stand. She is right it is better to rebuild a marriage if you two are living together. But, since you have been out for roughly 9 months, and you have filed for divorce, I don't think moving in is a great idea.

I would strongly suggest you date her. IF you don't enjoy the dates, it is unlikely you will enjoy life with her. Perhaps more contact right now will allow you to see what you really need to see to make this decision or stay with it.

It sounds as if she is fairly prideful, and doesn't like to admit her failures, but one of the things that really makes a marriage successful is admitting when you are wrong. Is she willing to do this? You don't know.

Call her and take her to dinner if you are still uncertain about her. If she wants you home and she wants the marriage she needs to persuade you that this is a good idea. That can only happen with personal contact. It is your life and your marriage, and if you are having second thoughts about your decision gather more data, and that means being around her.

I fully understand you not wanting to go back, so don't do that, but do date here if you entertain any ideas of reconcilliation. If you don't proceed to the divorce.

Good luck and God Bless,

JL

JMHO, The dating idea sounds good.

But, remember Harry, dates are supposed to be FUN. Focus on enjoying each other's company and rebuilding rapport before you start digging into the marriage repair stuff.

Don't move back in. She's going to have to show you that she's got something to offer.

Low

JL:
We've done the dating thing a couple of times. I generally had a good time. Then we end up back at the house and I go in to see my dog. She always asks for me to spend the night

(just sleep together as there has been no sex between us since November and she maintains no sex till I move home)

sometimes I accept and when I do I usually never sleep. She goes to sleep and I lie there. Fear builds and memories flood into my head. I break into a cold sweat and end up quietly leaving and going back to my apt.

New advice response: Tell her no more spending the night, but do go on dates. Just be sure to go back to apt after.

Harry,

Ok, I'll admit I am confused. She will have an A with OM, and obviously she had sex with him, right? She did this while living with you.

So have you asked her why you moving home is soooo important to her? Why, sex (presuming you would even want it, before she is tested) is on hold until you move home?

What is her thinking on this and what is her logic? She is still married to you so if she and you decided you wanted sex there is not the question of marriage or whatever.

What difference does it make if you are home? I would like to hear that answer.

Does she seem to enjoy the dates? If not, why not?
Has she ever asked you anywhere or done anything for you, other than tell you to come home before anything can happen???

This whole thing is a bit strange. I look forward to hearing more.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I'll admit I am confused. She will have an A with OM, and obviously she had sex with him, right? She did this while living with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she did have sex with him. And yes we were living together. And yes I am a sap for still loving her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So have you asked her why you moving home is soooo important to her? Why, sex (presuming you would even want it, before she is tested) is on hold until you move home? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was tested last summer, I assume that she hasn't needed a retest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is her thinking on this and what is her logic? She is still married to you so if she and you decided you wanted sex there is not the question of marriage or whatever.

What difference does it make if you are home? I would like to hear that answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On reflection she has always used sex as a tool. Giving it as a reward, or withholding it as a punishment. Even during the good times it was much more infrequent than I would like and I tried to discuss it with her, but was put off as being too demanding. She would say that it has to be natural and unscripted, yet she always had to have a shower before, it would only occur in the bedroom, at night, before bed. In this case I feel she is using sex as a lever to get me to move back home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What difference does it make if you are home? I would like to hear that answer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll get her exact words from an email.... "I want you to move back in. There is no way we can work on this seperately and I won't try."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does she seem to enjoy the dates? If not, why not?
Has she ever asked you anywhere or done anything for you, other than tell you to come home before anything can happen??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she seems to. After the first one or two dates she realized that she would have to interact and since then they've been pretty good. Dinner's, movies.... time with her family, even a weekend trip. Sometimes she will call and ask me over, but those times are few and far between. It's almost like she need reassurance I'm still alive and once thats done she's ok.

Does she do anything for me? Are you talking about making me dinner, sending me notes. Things like that? No she doesn't. But if your asking me if she takes my hand while we're walking or kisses me goodbye when I leave, yes she does.

Hi Harry,

Well I am going to go against the grain here and say that I *don't think dating is a good idea.

Why? Because of the current status between the two of you.Dating conjures up a fresh start between a man and a woman where you are beginning to discover each other,your hopes and dreams are discussed,there are no preconceived ideas,just an outpouring of thoughts,gestures and best behaviours.You know.

But you and your WW are up to your necks in a very painful situation where your WW is clearly trying to manipulate you into her arena.How can you possibly date from this point in time? It's "doomed" from the get go.You would both be dating for what I consider the wrong reasons because there is too much hanging in the air right now.Unresolved issues,pain,bad behavior,manipulation,memories,etc.Dating may feel good,briefly and on the surface but all that junk that you are going through now is there underneath,waiting to bubble up and you are no where near recovery and are very near a D.

It could be different if your WW wasn't placing these demands on you and was actively doing the WORK to have you come home.Isn't that the way it usually works here at MB? She's trying to put the cart before the horse.

The point of no return is closing in on her and instead of taking the necessary measures to ensure the marriage can be saved on her part,she is again putting the responsibility on YOU.Say you continue to go on these dates with WW,you fall for the "You have to come home first before I will do anything" statements.Then what? How long do you wait this time? How long does she feed you little bits of hope but ultimately stay the same? No,I would say don't fall for that trap and make sure SHE has first made the positive changes in order for you to return.If that's what you want to do,of course.

O

Octobergirl:

Oh wow, you make too much sense. Are you suggesting a return to PlanB? Go Dark?

Today I have exchanged 4 emails with her asking what assurances she has that it will not happen again. Each reply does not even contain a reference to my question. Her last reply was accusatory stating "It's one thing, coping with loneliness because you are alone. It's another, coping with loneliness when you have someone, but that someone is not there."

HarryS, I had responded to your post in the DD forum but recopied it here for review/response.

HarryS---I think you already know the answer to this one. I was like you and did everything I could to save our M...my wife did not want to work on it at all, no MC, no self help books, just sweep the past behind us and hope it doesn't happen again. And of course, I drove her to this...bull#@@$$!!!

All the while she was still with this guy (out of state married co-worker). I finally ended it and we have filed jointly and we have our own lawyers. Now, the RED flags are way up for you and they would be for me if my W ever wanted to make this work. I think she is done with that guy but now she is with another. She is doing an out of state internship and we are separated on the way to D.

Look at how obvious this is:
We had an email conversation a month ago and basically it came out that she really doesn't accept primary responsibility for what happened and states that I drove her to it. I state in the last email:

"There is never any forgiveness from you, but the point is that I gather you feel justified in what you did. If your answer to that is yes, that you do feel justified and have no assurances that it will never happen again then we have nothing to discuss."

She will never take responsibility and continue to deflect this...she will have another A, I guarantee it because she can get away with it, she is in control and not you!

Limbo continues, we go weeks without a single communication. Then all the sudden I get an IM asking why I don't talk to her.

Wake up, man and get out of LIMBO!! There is nothing won by choosing LIMBO. And the lies begat more lies, this is the TRUTH. Make the choice to mourn for a little. And move on, move ahead. Get control of YOUR LIFE BACK.

You now realize (and so do I) that you cannot change somebody else, but you can change your life circumstances.

TARAN--you need to focus on your M first. And if he does not want to work on it, END YOUR M first before beginning another R.

Just my 2 cents and humble opinion. I have really learned alot over the past 12 months. And, I really agree with the other posters who feel the same way I do.

Get out!! RUN, do not trip, but RUN!!!