OT...Pep, please tell me...You MUST have that book at work...and you are not quoting that from memory? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, BV...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, the trouble is I DID let OM…He came inside the ‘ME’ the real ME, the passionate ME, the heart (even though this sounds like fog talk) of ME, as a person.

I understand now (so please bear with me pep), why then I am having such a struggle in withdrawal… It is because of letting him in me in this way, that I FEEL he is part of the REAL me. I gave OM that side of me NOT H, because passion aroused it from OM, so he never even had to try much really.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I lived this. I know what you are saying. I too believed this for a time.

I remember thinking that the OM was the only person that experienced this part of me. And he said he felt as much. I remember him actually saying in a very serious moment that I had the power to hurt him like no one ever had. He meant because of his showing me the real HIM.

Fast forward 5 years years...

You know what I think now? What a load of bull hockey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

We were in our fantasy bubble. We could have never sustained that passion 24/7 for long.

My counselor told H. and I that those feelings of passion are the first to go and the last to come back.

I've read Passionate Marriage. It's not easy reading, but worth it.

The intimacy you can have with your husband will not compare to the intimacy you *think* you had with the OM.

Withdrawal will pass...don't feed the withdrawal. Passion *can* come in your marriage.

It does take *TIME*. I don't think you will feel passion until you have time to get over the withdrawal.

Susan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am in withdrawal and missing him I will be honest and open about that to you all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Understandable. But, when you are in withdrawal and missing his company, talk to us here.

Or go out and do something for someone else.

Keep your mind occupied.

Just take it one day at a time...Each day, each week will get better.

Dear Susan,

Have just manage to log on again before I go to bed before eldest son gets back and wants his turn on the pc ( never ending computer game!!) (18 year old boys). Well actually I got most of the night on here tonight as his girlfriend was round and now he has gone with H to take her back (son just learning to drive)…

I am looking forward to getting those books .

Actually I have one thing to share, but didn’t know if I was ready for it yet but I will share now because I know you all care and are really trying to help me… I was away from my H for 2 weeks over easter visiting sister. He was great. He kept the house for me (I had to go abroad) and sorted our 4 teenagers out (well the youngest of 9 thinks she is one!)

This was in the early stages of my recovery and he new it would help me get some rest for myself and enjoy being with my sisters.

Well, it turned out when I got back that I realised how much I had missed him and we had sex that night and I had an O in the way JL meant. (orally) I am shocked at myself in writing this even now, but I think I can trust you guys now. I have come to look at you all as kind, gentle, firm but great advisors (agony aunts/uncles in a way)

It was only a little one , but I have achieved 1 ….O in 29 years EVER EVER AND THIS WAS FIRST ONE!

(My husband and I never slept together before marriage.)

We were both shocked in a way and tired as we had to wait for kids tosleep (so was nearly 2am).

In a way, now I have shared it I can again cant I but I have gone into my ‘shutoff’ silent mode and now don’t feel anything again. (Actually it seemed more of chance it happened, because I was not in passionate mood though husband was more..


This is where all your wise counsel to me comes in JL, Pep and Susan and FL. I have to have a starting place. JL gave me one recently…. Starting to connect me mere touching first and progressing from there. Doing things for H in that way.

I have those books you all recommended to me so that is another step in the right direction right? I am going to try my best,with your help.

Am falling asleep guys,

Have to go….

Lots of love and thanks again.

Susan you said,

“I remember thinking that the OM was the only person that experienced this part of me. And he said he felt as much. I remember him actually saying in a very serious moment that I had the power to hurt him like no one ever had. He meant because of his showing me the real HIM”

This is me Susan.

The intimacy you can have with your husband will not compare to the intimacy you *think* you had with the OM.
I hope so Susan.

Thanks for your input. I feel really blessed despite JL (having to make his living sometimes!!)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BV,

I have been out of town for a few days, and am just catching up. I copied a bunch of stuff from your response to my last post but as this thread has evolved in Pep's and Susan's capable hands, what I was going to say was not relavent.

I noticed that you did meet one objective with your H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am very happy for you and I think there is a much deeper lesson there than you think. It is along the lines that Pep was talking about, so I will leave it to you to address her mystery to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You keep saying you don't "feel" any passion toward your H. You also mentioned that you haven't reached out and simply touched your H, nor have you initiated anything because you don't "feel".

But you say you love your H. However, you don't act on your love for him either. You withdraw from him when he needs you most, when he is hurting most, when he needs comfort most...you withdraw. Yet, you say you love him. I would bet if one of your children were in a similar situation as your H, you would be comforting them. So why not your H?

I keep wondering "what have I missed in talking with you." I am not picking up on something important in what you are saying. You won't act until you "feel" AND you won't act out of love and kindness.

Yet, you say you do love him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So permit me to take a few stabs in the dark here and see if we can get somewhere.

My first stab is that you don't WANT a passionate relationship with your H, because it would rapidly diminish what you had with OM, thus making what you had and did truely tawdry.

My second stab is that you equate "feelings" with actions, and yet there is no connection. IF you read here a lot you will see the statement that ONLY actions can be trusted not words, when in recovery. If you took the actions recommended we know you will begin to bond to your H like you have not, yet you seem to fear this.

I am having a hard time figuring out if this is because you don't want to lose OM in your mind, or if there is something from your past even childhood that is preventing this.

BV, I will say again. If you will simply reach out and touch your H, if you will simply comfort him, hold him, you will begin to "feel" your heart change. ACTIONS lead to feelings BV not the other way around.

You mentioned something about OM being able to effortlessly get into the real you. It was not effortless BV, it took him a long time, it took all of his skills and training (and he was trained to do this remember) to get by your defenses. It was NOT an accident, and it was NOT effortless.

He knew something that your H does not. He knew you were defending yourself against your H, and therefore you could not defend against him (the OM).

My question is why did you have those defenses in the first place? Followed by the question... Do you realize you need to tear them down because they are useless against your "real" enemies, and are preventing your REAL ally from helping you and loving you like he would?

You need to think about your defensiveness? Why is it there, why is it directed at your H, but was not toward the OM?

I think part of it, is if you ever let your H in, the connections would be so strong, the passions so intense you are not sure you could handle them. It is one thing to let some man in that is using you. It is quite another to allow the father of your children, the man who you KNOW loves you more than anything in. THAT COULD BE INTENSE.

So what is it you fear BV? What are you defending against? Those are my questions to you.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Am glad you are back and asking me ‘probing’ questions again, even though I have to delve into myself and realise answers that I don’t want to admit, or rather am ‘scared ‘ to admit, because quite simply I have never had to face this before. I guess I have come to view you (hope that’s ok) as a sort of advisor to me. I hope that doesn’t put too much pressure on you??

Guess you won’t post much again now I have said that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ok, here I am in another day and still in cloud cuckoo land and ‘losing’ it in the clouds before it even gets as far as the tree…If I can even see out of my foggy cloud and come to sense soon before I either kill myself with drink or tablets in trying to ‘blank all this out’ that is… <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Basically I am in a mess. I have been in this mess the last few days. I sum myself up in the following way which may explain why I seem so crazy and mixed up.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

1. What is love? I say I love my H yet my actions don’t speak this do they?
2. I don’t act in love to him, therefore I guess how can I claim to love him?
3. I am expecting ‘feelings’ to come before I act therefore I am not moving
4. I want to know ‘true sexual love and passion’yet I feel I am devoid of feeling
5. I am ‘afraid’ of something but don’t know what exactly it is except you said:

“My first stab is that you don't WANT a passionate relationship with your H, because it would rapidly diminish what you had with OM, thus making what you had and did truely tawdry.”

Partly true, if I think about it, but also because I genuinely DON’T know how to start a ‘passionate’ relationship with H, when we have always ‘plodded’ on as it were in the past.

It is like I have experienced sexual chemistry now and am in a real mess because I have no idea how to actually produce a chemistry when it was not there before. (Feelings were there, and a loving relationship and commitment to our kids over years but not chemistry in the sexual way)

If I hadn’t started A with OM, then I know we were experiencing some difficulties between us in certain areas of communication ENeeds etc, but they I think would have been easier to sort out without someone else now in the picture.

You said:

“I keep wondering "what have I missed in talking with you." I am not picking up on something important in what you are saying. You won't act until you "feel" AND you won't act out of love and kindness.” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


This sadly does sum me up right. My pain is that I can act out of kindness in tidying and doing things for him to help him get organised, but in the sexual area or any phys contact from him to me I can’t handle it. He is very understanding and keeps saying to me ‘it will come back ‘ don’t worry.What if it doesn’t though??

I am a very emotional and feeling based person I will try to explain to you. I have a deep passionate side in me waiting to be released. Little things are important to me in a big way…

Ie bringing a surprise little gift back or card or flowers or a crazy gift
Suggesting a little trip out somewhere together.
How he dresses and looks Ie clean, casual and SHAVED
Smelling nice (Big one here)
Not talking about money or related issues.

In all of this husband will confess he doesn’t scores well.

I feel it is me making the decisions on everything, where we go, what he wears,

If I want flowers I buy them mostly.

I love surprises. Despite everything I do try.

You mentioned something about OM being able to effortlessly get into the real you. It was not effortless BV, it took him a long time, it took all of his skills and training (and he was trained to do this remember) to get by your defenses. It was NOT an accident, and it was NOT effortless.

I know this for sure and my husband does too. I was ‘premeditated’ by OM. My H was not liked by OM for the biblical stand my husband stood for in meetings,and my husband never trusted OM in the slightest. (Others has been unfairly treated too)

My husband preached a sermon one night on David and Bathsheaba and OM told me he seemed to speaking direct at him.

My is glad OM going away, further, because in actual fact he is only going 2 hours away.

You need to think about your defensiveness? Why is it there, why is it directed at your H, but was not toward the OM?

I think part of it, is if you ever let your H in, the connections would be so strong, the passions so intense you are not sure you could handle them. It is one thing to let some man in that is using you. It is quite another to allow the father of your children, the man who you KNOW loves you more than anything in. THAT COULD BE INTENSE.

So what is it you fear BV? What are you defending against? Those are my questions to you.

I really don’t know what I am defending in.

Maybe I don’t want to face the reality of really saying goodbye to om in my heart and this causes me much pain at the moment.

God Bless,

JL

Posts: 7869 | Registered: Aug 99 | IP: Logged |

BV,

Don't worry you are not driving me off. You said somethings that I thought I would respond to and then I need get out the old 2x4 on a few other things.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sadly does sum me up right. My pain is that I can act out of kindness in tidying and doing things for him to help him get organised, but in the sexual area or any phys contact from him to me I can’t handle it. He is very understanding and keeps saying to me ‘it will come back ‘ don’t worry.What if it doesn’t though??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I lied, 2x4 first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't wait for your H to touch you. You reach out during the day or even when the kids are around and touch him on the arm and thank him. I presume the kids know that something is up with Mom and Dad, so this act in front of them will have many many meanings. Let me mention a few. First, it will reassure them that Mom does want to stay with Dad. Second, it shows them that you do have some feelings for your H. This is very important, do you want them to act as you and your H have? But, finally, not only will you have mad contact with your H, you will have validated him in front of his children.

BV, of all of the things you could do for your H, this single thing may be the biggest. To have you thank him for something in front of the children and you actually reach out and touch him, they will notice and so will he. You have no idea.

BV, do this, if you are really feeling bold give him a peck on the cheek as well. I guarentee (sp) that you will make a major impact. You will start new feelings in all of your family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a very emotional and feeling based person I will try to explain to you. I have a deep passionate side in me waiting to be released. Little things are important to me in a big way…

Ie bringing a surprise little gift back or card or flowers or a crazy gift
Suggesting a little trip out somewhere together.
How he dresses and looks Ie clean, casual and SHAVED
Smelling nice (Big one here)
Not talking about money or related issues.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you told him this? I hope so. But, you need to understand that while you are "feelings" based, so is your H. I know you don't think so, but he is. But what he also is is your protector. He is trying to take responsibility off of you by working, making sure everything is how it should be, by taking care of you. I know it does NOT show feelings, but it requires DEEP feelings to do this will little or no encouragement,and that is what he is doing.

I think you are misinterpretting your H here. I think you are not realizing that he expresses his "feelings" by being there for you, by doing his best for his family, and I will bet he was reared to be the financial support of the family. He was told, "if you are to be a good man and a good H, you need to provide for your family, NO MATTER WHAT IT COSTS OR WHAT JOB YOU HAVE TO DO."

So what is most important to him? What does he value besides you and your family? He values that he has supported you, that he is a religious man, that he has done his best to be a good husband. Why? because he has feelings, deep feelings BV.

Your H may need to change how he shows his love for you, but you need to understand how your H HAS shown his love for you and continues to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all of this husband will confess he doesn’t scores well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I imagine you are right, but where you "don't score well" is seeing your H for who he is, for why he has done what he has, for what is inside of him. You have not seen inside of your H, because what he does takes discipline and is done away from home.

Your OM, you worked with, he works in the realm of "feelings" and "belief", your H does not. I don't know what he does, but I am sure he must deal in facts, reality, pressure. Your OM dealt in a world you liked, but clearly you have not come to realize that he what OM says he believes in he does NOT.

Your H's believe in his faith, is far purer. How is that, from a man that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all of this husband will confess he doesn’t scores well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet,he loves you enough to stay although as you admit you have NOT been the W to him you could have been. Do you see the failings of your "logic". Even by a "feelings" based measure, it is clear that his "feelings" for you are very intense although yours for him are very weak.

You are looking at this wrong BV. Your defense that you are a "feelings" based person should allow you to see your H's "feelings" but you don't. Time for a change of perspective BV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel it is me making the decisions on everything, where we go, what he wears,

If I want flowers I buy them mostly.

I love surprises. Despite everything I do try.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let's see he cannot wear what he wants to wear is that correct? YOu control that part of his life. You make all of the decisions so he just works, brings home the paycheck, and you then issue the orders of the day and he follows them is that correct?

Are you seeing a pattern to the questions I am asking? You don't see that he "let's" you do these things because he thinks it makes YOU happy? Your statement about clothes suggests that he would happily dress himself differently if it were not for you and your preferences. Interesting, very interesting don't you think BV?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mentioned something about OM being able to effortlessly get into the real you. It was not effortless BV, it took him a long time, it took all of his skills and training (and he was trained to do this remember) to get by your defenses. It was NOT an accident, and it was NOT effortless.

I know this for sure and my husband does too. I was ‘premeditated’ by OM. My H was not liked by OM for the biblical stand my husband stood for in meetings,and my husband never trusted OM in the slightest. (Others has been unfairly treated too)

My husband preached a sermon one night on David and Bathsheaba and OM told me he seemed to speaking direct at him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So one is to infer from this that there was some competion between your H and OM. IT would seem that OM might have felt your H was a better minister than he. But, we now know that minister was a much better OM and lover than your H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So in a sense you choose not only another man, you choose a rival to your H's. You must have really wanted to hurt your H BV.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to think about your defensiveness? Why is it there, why is it directed at your H, but was not toward the OM?

I think part of it, is if you ever let your H in, the connections would be so strong, the passions so intense you are not sure you could handle them. It is one thing to let some man in that is using you. It is quite another to allow the father of your children, the man who you KNOW loves you more than anything in. THAT COULD BE INTENSE.

So what is it you fear BV? What are you defending against? Those are my questions to you.

I really don’t know what I am defending in.

Maybe I don’t want to face the reality of really saying goodbye to om in my heart and this causes me much pain at the moment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, I guess the reality that you may end up saying goodbye to your H would not?? You realize you have already done that to your H don't you? You have already shut him out, and told him goodbye. In the case of many men and women what you have done would be the end. You have not realized it yet, but you have effectively ended your marriage. Your H's forgiveness is permitting a "second chance" to build a marriage that you both want, but second chances do go away as well.

So here is my 2x4 for you. Quit whining, quit drinking, quit saying you don't feel like it, and reach out and touch your H. Open your eyes and see who he is. While you think the touching, that takling, the whatever is for him, it is NOT. It is for you. You claim the passion is there, but I don't see you using it, just talking about it. You want to be passionate? Then start by being just NICE, then move to LOVING, and then... you can go to passionate.

I don't know if you have read SKM's chronicles. I am going to find them and append them to this post. I think you will find what she has to say very interesting.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is her post SKMS Chronicles

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Dear JL,

Am just doing this last post to you before I go to bed….

I guess I had to put my seat belt on to read it because you got out all 4x4s not many little 2x4’s….

First:

Regarding the children seeing how me & H connect together.

That is a good thing which I have always believed to be important. They need to know they are secure and happy in their home.

Actually the strange thing is that just before I confessed in early March, I felt in my spirit it had to come to an end with OM (though I didn’t realise then how painful it would be)

I had a gift of money left me from my father, and I whisked my husband away for a few days abroad. I hadn’t told him then, but was intending to at some point. We had a good time away and though I didn’t have ‘O’ as it was Valentines weekend and in a romantic city it went well and we enjoyed the company of each other.

Since coming back though and confessing, and maintaining NC and going through withdrawal I can’t seem to be how I was abroad with him.

I see a flicker of hope and I truly want to reach for it JL. Please know and believe that.

“Have you told him this? I hope so. But, you need to understand that while you are "feelings" based, so is your H. I know you don't think so, but he is. But what he also is is your protector. He is trying to take responsibility off of you by working, making sure everything is how it should be, by taking care of you. I know it does NOT show feelings, but it requires DEEP feelings to do this will little or no encouragement,and that is what he is doing.”

Yes I have told him. I know I don’t encourage him more and I want to try. Really.

So what is most important to him? What does he value besides you and your family? He values that he has supported you, that he is a religious man, that he has done his best to be a good husband. Why? because he has feelings, deep feelings BV.

My husband shows his love, affection and loyalty by being here. I realize that. We have had a good strong and stable marriage in past years, and fun in bringing up the kids.

“Your OM, you worked with, he works in the realm of "feelings" and "belief", your H does not. I don't know what he does, but I am sure he must deal in facts, reality, pressure. Your OM dealt in a world you liked, but clearly you have not come to realize that he what OM says he believes in he does NOT. “

Yes, my H does do that. He works with difficult children who are out of school because of behaviour problems.

OM worked totally in the realm of feelings and belief. My H told me that and observed that from the beginning almost. H told me so many times (as I worked closely with OM) to watch my back constantly…Sadly I didn’t did I

You are looking at this wrong BV. Your defense that you are a "feelings" based person should allow you to see your H's "feelings" but you don't. Time for a change of perspective BV.

“Create a clean heart in me o God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me” – Psl 51

I do need to change my perspective from OM and fantasy to real H there for me.

Maybe I don’t want to face the reality of really saying goodbye to om in my heart and this causes me much pain at the moment. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Yes you are right. I don’t want to say goodbye to OM in my heart I guess

So one is to infer from this that there was some competion between your H and OM. IT would seem that OM might have felt your H was a better minister than he. But, we now know that minister was a much better OM and lover than your H.

OM felt my H was a stronger character and he was not able to ‘manipulate’ him. However he did succeed with his W..Me I can say nothing to justify myself. I brought shame to my H.

So in a sense you choose not only another man, you choose a rival to your H's. You must have really wanted to hurt your H BV.

Please don’t say it as hard and cold as this though I know it seems that way. I honestly never set out for it to happen and I never every wanted to deliberately hurt my husband by who it was with. Never. My fault I just worked for OM and ended up getting E involved.

I am not a hard, calculating cold woman. Just a woman who has a stored up love bank and wants to learn how to give deposits away and make my husband my best friend and lover for the first time ‘properly’ in our marriage..

So in a sense you choose not only another man, you choose a rival to your H's. You must have really wanted to hurt your H BV.

Please dont say it like that. I didn't set out to hurt him in any way like this. I am not a cold calculating hard woman. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So here is my 2x4 for you. Quit whining, quit drinking, quit saying you don't feel like it, and reach out and touch your H. Open your eyes and see who he is. While you think the touching, that takling, the whatever is for him, it is NOT. It is for you. You claim the passion is there, but I don't see you using it, just talking about it. You want to be passionate? Then start by being just NICE, then move to LOVING, and then... you can go to passionate.

for my grand finale for tonight….and stepping out on your advice……

Even though I don’t’ feel like this ~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am going to make a HUGE DEPOSIT in his love bank now (albeit not fancy or frilly)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Will sign off for now.

Please post when you next can (My seatbelt is permanently fastened now!!)

Ps Are you in shock now for what I am actually going to do for my H now??!!

Kas
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Dear JL,

Are you still there???

Hope so. Me and runnawaypot need you.

Lots,

Infact, we are doin terrible at the moment, so better says lots of lots,

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

BV,

A holiday here so I am just getting back to things. Well, did you make a love deposit? If so, did you look him in the eyes as you did? Did you tell him you love him as you say you do? Did you hold him in your arms? What did you see in his eyes?

I know there is a long way to go, and I realize this takes time, but as you go, open your heart to your H, gradually let him see you for who you are. You will be surprised at what he sees BV. You will be amazed at how he is rejuvenated.

You have a lot of power in this marriage BV. Start thinking about how to use it.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL,
I only have time to do a quick post as eldest son is waiting to play his game 'online' with friends then talk to his girlfriend.

You asked me:

Well, did you make a love deposit? If so, did you look him in the eyes as you did? Did you tell him you love him as you say you do? Did you hold him in your arms? What did you see in his eyes?

Yes I made the love deposit, but no I didn't do the other stuff. I actually fell asleep during the end. (Couldn't help it I was emotionally drained and had taken tablet). As least I was willing to do it though?

I did tell you it was going to be a 'no frills' experience because of no feelings and tiredness.

He did appreciate my efforts though...

Today I bought another 'digital' thing. Supposed to be the latest... Also a book called "Orgasm - over 100 truly explosive tips"

H has been reading the book (he was quite cheered up I had bought it) and I tried the 'thing' out just to learn how to explain to H what I need.

It is quite a good 'thing' and did work, so I thought I could learn a bit from using it then try to explain to H? He is fine with that.

Well, the truth is though. I am worried. I still have no feelings in this area, and I am still in fog and thinking of OM and how he 'was' with me.

I feel like a mechanical robot.

I have deep passion in me and am experiencing it for the first time, yet have no feelings in that area with whom I am supposed to.

Am I making any sense at all?

Guess I will wait for the 4x4 from you as a result.

If I can't reply tonight I will tomorrow.

ps can you forewarn next time you disappear?? I thought I had driven you off.

Kas

Still <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Does this sound ok?? I am still doing it

Dear JL,

Cant you make this your job too so you don't have to go so much. sorry am being selfish in saying that

Have you got any kids?

Do you still do coaching and training them?

What is your REAL job?? May have missed this somewhere along the line.

Where is Pepperband recently and WAT?

Guess I am a typical woman always asking questions ...

Well guess I have to sign off for the night. Hope you will be back tomorrow?

Kas

BV,

WAT is sailing the high seas I think and won't be back until the middle of the month. Pep is probably doing 4th of July things with family, as was I. I am a scientist so my research takes me to various labs for my research.

I saw where you have begun an exercise program as well as not bringing drink home. Great ideas. I also saw where you were fantasizing about your H being a different sort of man. A more aggressive man, perhaps an angrier man. I think you have been reading too many novels BV. if he were more aggressive and angrier, your marriage might well be over by now, and you would be in far worse shape than you are now. Plus your family would have been torn up.

I would bet that he has had thoughts of violence and may have come closer than you realize. You don't seem to know him too well, so don't be surprised. However,the fact that he controls them, and has chosen a more gentle way of approaching things does not imply that he is NOT strong. He is stronger than most I can assure you. Also, don't assume he won't leave you. If OM keeps winning and he keeps losing, you will lose your H.

BV, in your country do you have the saying "quite waters run deep?" If not consider this saying. Deep running water has a lot of power, but it is not obvious until forced to deal with it. Your H sounds a bit like that. I know your focus is on OM, and it will be. But I want to warn you of something you don't seem to fully realize just as RAP did not. You can lose everything in your fantasy.

Look at RAP, her H is ready for a D, her family will be torn up no matter how it works out. OM is happily married to a woman that does not know, and he will not leave his W for RAP. She will only get one thing she seems to want although she says she doesn't and that is she will be single and perhaps a single mother, raising 3 boys, who she will hope do not act like her or marry any girls that act like her. I'm betting that she will have problems with them big time if they do divorce and she gets custody.

I don't think RAP really felt it would come to this, but it has.

Your situation seems different but in many ways it is not. Your OM is unlikely to leave his W for you. Your family will suffer if your H ever decides to leave. Your family will suffer if you don't address your depression. And finally I suspect that RAP and you had one last thing in common, you felt it would NOT end your marriage.

You don't see your H realistically as indicated by your wish list for him to be angry, to react, to...
You are missing that he is reacting, he is enduring great pain and frustration, and he is still there.
He is a far stronger man than you give him credit for. Indeed you give him little credit really despite your words or OM would not be so prominate in your mind. But, hopefully you will come to see OM and your H in a far different light.

The idea is to do it before the marriage ends, or your marriage becomes something your H endures but has given up on.

Some things to thnk about.

God Bless,

JL

Dear JL,

I am once again half asleep as I type, but wanted to get a reply to you, as I realise by now that you can only post in the evening time, and as you sent me a post earlier I wanted to comment on a few things.

Firstly, I have started reading the book Torn Asunder which came today. I have realised my A was the Stage 2 ‘entwinement’ one which involved emotions and therefore is quite hard to do a quick recovery in. At least I recognize this is contributing to my hard withdrawls.

I realise that the battle in my head is battling with the emotions and feelings within my heart.

Head- you know the truth of this situation
Heart – I miss him and the txts and working with him and his contact etc etc

None of us would have left our S’s. We were both cake eaters. This is more horrendous to think I wanted to live like that or ‘just’ be friends again as OM wanted. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

He wanted me to do that (go back to friends), but I couldn’t go back to that. I had become too emotionally inovolved. That was why I cracked in the end. I felt he was backing away from me and I had no-one to talk to. I was a terrible mess inside.

I think you have been reading too many novels BV. if he were more aggressive and angrier, your marriage might well be over by now, and you would be in far worse shape than you are now. Plus your family would have been torn up.

You are very right. It is my H’s response to not being angry with me and forgiving me that is keeping us both here in our situation.

He deals with things in a calm and collectible manner (which can infuriate me though sometimes if I am honest as I want him TO demonstrate something, anything)

He is maintaining the ‘state of waiting’ for me.
He says when he does get ‘firm’ I misunderstand and get sulky (oh dear pep)…
When he is quiet and solid He just gets the ‘why aren’t you more responsive’

In other words he doesn’t seem able to win he says, so He will stay on this cool calm and collective thread till I am ready to talk more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

You don't see your H realistically as indicated by your wish list for him to be angry, to react, to...

You are missing that he is reacting, he is enduring great pain and frustration, and he is still there.

He is a far stronger man than you give him credit for. Indeed you give him little credit really despite your words or OM would not be so prominate in your mind. But, hopefully you will come to see OM and your H in a far different light.

You are right. I guess most of my posts are about Om in my mind. Ok let me ask you something outright….

Do me a list if you were my H and what would you, as a man like to see on it.?

I need to have a list to work on from a man’s point of view.

Don’t tell me to ask H, I am asking you so I can try some surprise things on him.

Will be waiting eagerly to see what you have written. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks as always for being here and giving me adivise…(I won’t suddenly find a bill cheque appear on my doorstep will I??) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Kas

BV,

Well, I will offer you my list based on reading here and my own thoughts. I hope it helps. I can summarize before I start the list. If I were your H, I would need "affirmation of my efforts", I would need "confirmation that you know what this has done to me". I would need "support" and I would need "radical honesty". Notice I did not say "sex". I will discuss this in a moment.

So what would I need:

1. Affirmation that you appreciate my efforts and while you still think of OM, you understand that you are loved by me.

2. Confirmation that what I am doing is helping you, and that it is recognized by you for what it is...something very hard for me to do not to mention painful.

3. More than just about anything I would like to know that you feel you NEED me in your life, that you WANT to be my W despite what you feel for your OM.

4. I would need an emotional and physical boost from you. That could come in the form of physical closeness (a hug, a pat on the hand, holding my hand, sitting next to me, a kiss, etc) or it could be you simply "thanking me for my efforts" and while I would love to hear that you loved me, I would like to have my efforts recognized and not viewed as manipulation.

5. I would like for YOU to initiate conversations with me, about OM and your feelings, about what you feel now, and about what I could do to help you.

6. I would like you to ask me what you could do for me to help me deal with this, to deal with my uncertainty as a man or an H. I would like for you to tell me of things you like about me.

7. I would like for you to open up and tell me what you need from me, what I could do to be a better H to you.

8. I would like the beginnings of intimacy again, as you are comfortable with it.

9. I would like you to heal enough to tell me what you like, don't like, and enjoy.

10. Finally, when this is over, I would like for you to love me and want to be with me on your own, not as the "second choice" made by default.

There are more things but these sort of sum them up. There is one last thing I am sure any BS, male or female would want.

I would like to see you smile and laugh again.

BV, I am sure you are a lovely lady, but I KNOW men and we like "beautiful" ladies. I have never met a woman that did not become "beautiful" when she smiled and laughed. You have no idea how much your happiness will help your H. THAT is the gift he wants most from you. He wants to see you smile, laugh, enjoy life, and THEN you can become his lover. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Trust an experienced old guy on this. A woman that smiles and is happy is just "beautiful".

Think about that.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Just a note to say I am printing out your list. I think it is probably a very good insight on what my H will need from me.

Pam

Dear JL.

Wow. This list gives me a real insight as to how I believe my husband is feeling already but doesn’t express it in all your points; I really appreciate you doing this because I know his mind works (albeit notalways vocal) inwhat you have said.

BV,

Well, I will offer you my list based on reading here and my own thoughts. I hope it helps. I can summarize before I start the list. If I were your H, I would need "affirmation of my efforts", I would need "confirmation that you know what this has done to me". I would need "support" and I would need "radical honesty". Notice I did not say "sex". I will discuss this in a moment.

So what would I need:

1. Affirmation that you appreciate my efforts and while you still think of OM, you understand that you are loved by me.

I undersand that,but my failing is that I am not telling him it. He knows I still think of Om, but I haven’t told him that I understand and appreciate his love really have I?

2. Confirmation that what I am doing is helping you, and that it is recognized by you for what it is...something very hard for me to do not to mention painful.

Yes. I can see this would be very important to him. He is helping me through this, yet I don’t tell him enough. I know that.

3. More than just about anything I would like to know that you feel you NEED me in your life, that you WANT to be my W despite what you feel for your OM.

I need to work on this one. I do need and want him in my life and I do want to be his W, but at same time I still struggle with feelings for OM, but yes. I know my first choice would always be to stay with H. I was a cake eater. I would never have left him or the children Ilove. I need to work on the bit of letting him know I do need him though.

4. I would need an emotional and physical boost from you. That could come in the form of physical closeness (a hug, a pat on the hand, holding my hand, sitting next to me, a kiss, etc) or it could be you simply "thanking me for my efforts" and while I would love to hear that you loved me, I would like to have my efforts recognized and not viewed as manipulation.

As I guessed you would say something like this. I still feel the phys side (apart from a hug or cuddle in bed) quite hard to overcome. You never mentioned your thoughts On the book and ‘thing’ I had bought??I don’t think H manipulates me in the area of sex.


5. I would like for YOU to initiate conversations with me, about OM and your feelings, about what you feel now, and about what I could do to help you.

This is my strongest point. I do this a lot and we talk about it.


6. I would like you to ask me what you could do for me to help me deal with this, to deal with my uncertainty as a man or an H. I would like for you to tell me of things you like about me.

Thank you for saying this. It is what I need to do and work on in our M.


7. I would like for you to open up and tell me what you need from me, what I could do to be
Am working on this especially in the intimate side of things.

[B]8. I would like the beginnings of intimacy again, as you are comfortable with it.

I do too. Want to make a start. May try a bit more ‘frilly’ this weekend?

9. I would like you to heal enough to tell me what you like, don't like, and enjoy.

I will try to say this nicely instead of grumpily. He cant read my mind so it is only fair I spell it out for him.


10. Finally, when this is over, I would like for you to love me and want to be with me on your own, not as the "second choice" made by default.

Yes. I want to think like this JL. I would hate to think of my H being with me out of second choice made by default. I want to know him more and re-discover the years lost.


There are more things but these sort of sum them up. There is one last thing I am sure any BS, male or female would want.

There are more things but these sort of sum them up. There is one last thing I am sure any BS, male or female would want.

I would like to see you smile and laugh again.

BV, I am sure you are a lovely lady, but I KNOW men and we like "beautiful" ladies. I have never met a woman that did not become "beautiful" when she smiled and laughed. You have no idea how much your happiness will help your H. THAT is the gift he wants most from you. He wants to see you smile, laugh, enjoy life, and THEN you can become his lover.

Trust an experienced old guy on this. A woman that smiles and is happy is just "beautiful".

I do have a sense of humour (when I am in my sane moods) and I love being happy and joking around and friendly. I love to smile and laugh. Guess this side of me is what people around me are missing most. They say where is that happy bubbly ………(Name withheld). I want to be her again.

There are more things but these sort of sum them up. There is one last thing I am sure any BS, male or female would want.

I would like to see you smile and laugh again.

BV, I am sure you are a lovely lady, but I KNOW men and we like "beautiful" ladies. I have never met a woman that did not become "beautiful" when she smiled and laughed. You have no idea how much your happiness will help your H. THAT is the gift he wants most from you. He wants to see you smile, laugh, enjoy life, and THEN you can become his lover.

Trust an experienced old guy on this. A woman that smiles and is happy is just "beautiful".


Thanks JL. Really appreciate your timeand opinion. Am going to bed now as it is afte midnight... Please post somemore insight to me tomorrow?

Thanks
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kas

Dear JL,

When you can, please send me some 4x4's to knock some sense into me..

Hit me with a list of direct and straight talking.

I am feeling 'worthless' at the moment. I wish time to go back to when I wasn't involved with OM but just worked for him.

I enjoyed working with him. For 16 months I let my EN be met by him, and I got addicted.

I know I am class 2 affair - Entangled affair

(in book Torn Asunder)

I recognize that due to the nature of this type of A being very emotionally involved over a period of time 'the hooks are in deep' as Dave Carder puts it.

Today is Wednesday...In the past I would be hapily going to work at the church today. I miss it so much.

New minister here now. (I am keeping a very low profile)

Hard to even go to the Bible study last night. All I see is images of OM there.

I cant seem to get a job. (Have had interviews but think people think of me as a blond bimbo)

I really want to do secretarial work and 'organizing' as I did before for someone who needs help in this area.

I can't seem to think I have a purpose in my life.

Hit me hard with some 4x4's because I really do want to contact OM to see how he is feeling?

I know I have opened up myself for 'hard' replies but I have done that deliberately so you will talk some sense into me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The list you did for me last night was great. I know RAP has read it too.

This thing with me now though is a seperate issue. I need a purpose for myself in life.

Ok, guess I am ready with my seatbelt on for your reply.

Thanks,

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Kas,

I'm not JL, but I do swing a good 4x4. Let me recap your situation for you, and then illustrate what happens when you don't step up to the plate.

You are in an emotional affair. Harley likens these to addictions---chemical substance addictions. Crack cocaine. Heroin. Nicotine. All these substances are highly addictive, they will cause the addict to do ridiculous things to get their fix, and they're all very tough to kick. Your affair provides some of the same types of brain chemistry as these substances (thankfully not all of them).

As an addict, the only effective way to quit is to go cold turkey. You need to do this for yourself. You need to have help with accountability---something that your husband would probably be happy to do for you. The sooner you do this, the better off you will be.

Many addicts cannot do this until they've reached a depth of dispair that you probably can't imagine. My wife was one of those. Her crash took the form of a separation and a pregnancy by the OM. She went for an abortion, and couldn't do it. Her lowest point. I came back home to her---eventually the affair ended (horribly---which wasn't a bad thing). The child from that affair is over five years old now. He's a joy to us---and we have a "recovered" marriage in many ways. But in other ways, my wife is still suffering tremendously from what she did. It's unlikely that she will ever be able to forgive herself, and that self-loathing and feeling of worthlessness tinges her interactions with me, with our children, and others in her life.

I simply say to you, don't get to that point. Quit now. If you wait, you'll do so much more damage to yourself---not to mention those around you. Quitting will not be easy, and you will go through withdrawal (probably 1-3 months). My guess would be 1 to 2 years for you and your husband to feel "recovered". But the alternative isn't good.

BV or BB as which I will lovingly refer to you as from this point on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Blonde bimbo. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

{{{{hugs}}}}

lots of really tight ones that last just long enough as to not make and awkward moment.

Please tell me you are not drinking. Please say it isn't so.

What the OM is thinking, hmmmm, I always have said, I would just like a weekly report from OM, one that said, Hi I'm fine, kids are doing good, the W and I are getting along fine, and BTW, I still adore you and have no bad thoughts of you at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wouldn't that be great, but not realistic or likely. I have since been able to come out of the fog enough that I don't even think I crave those phone calls.

I do hope he is well, and happy, and that he is making his W happy, but I can't worry about what his feelings towards me are.

You can't worry about it, if you are truly going to move on from the grips of this addiction.

Let's say, OM thinks about you all the time and misses you and would like to resume contact, then what???

Or OM doesn't think of you at all, and wishes you never spoke to him again, then what??

Or he thinks of you, misses you, but can't have contact with you, then what????

BB- you can do this, and you will be very proud of yourseld when you do come through.

You do have worth, you have been made in God's imagine, and that alone gives you your worth, to say you are worthless is a direct insult to your creator.

I find you worthy of my attention. I'm a great judge of character, and I make very sane and rational decisions.

Well there is this one time when I had an A, and all that above was down the toilet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love to you BV
KY

Okay, BV you want a fencepost?

Remember this - your BH only has one life to live, as do you. If you remain emotionally glued to the OM, or the thought of the OM and he remains on the outside, it will soon dawn on him that his life is passing him by. He will question whether he is prepared to spend his days waiting for a crumb of affection from you. He will start to wonder if he truly wants a sterile life void of intimacy. He will fantasize himself about what it would be like to have a partner who IS into him - emotionally, spiritually and physically.

He will crave passion.

Then, he will have an epiphany. He is NOT going to live for ever, and unlike an object on a shelf, he is not going to remain the same as he ages. He will fear that IF you ever come around, it will be in the waning years of your lives, too late to have enjoyed this time together.

The window of opportunity for passion will have closed. Forever.

So many WS talk about how their love for their BS died out before the A. The BS either did or failed to do things that added to or maintained the love bank. In nearly all cases, the BS did not do these actions or inactions intentionally; they truly cared for and loved the WS. The problem was they weren't caring in a way that was valued by the WS. Essentially, the WS became "fed up" -- reaching the limit -- with the absence of love bank imput from the BS.

Heres the 4x4: It goes both ways. As you, yourself became disenchanted in your M and vulnerable to looking elsewhere, so too can your H. He may reach his limit of this and be open to looking elsewhere. Then if you "come around", rediscovering your love for H and finally giving up OM will be a moot point. He will have gone, left to find the passion to which he is entitled as much as you are.

And if he does, what do you say? What can you say? That he is not entitled to live his one and only god given life?
That he does not have a right to seek the passion and love you do?

So, BV, perhaps the 4x4 you need now is a bit of a reality check from your H's POV. Perhaps you need to be jolted out of the complacency that you can take for granted that your H, you good ol' dependable H will be there for you no matter what. Perhaps you need to see that your H, while flawed (as are we all) is nonetheless a good man, with plenty to offer some other woman who will know how to appreciate him. Someone who won't make his second choice status so blatantly obvious.