BV,

Why is it amazing to you? Don't you believe? You have just lost your way, we know that. That is why we are here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Permit me to put you mind at ease abit.

First, there is NO WAY on God's Green Earth, that your marriage will be the same. The mold is broken. We are talking to you about REBUILDING the marriage in many ways from the ground up.

Second, I am NOT trying to get you to forget about OM. I don't WANT you to forget about him, for his presence in your life is there to TEACH you some lessons. The only issue is are you going to learn them. So stop trying to "forget" about him, it won't happen, it should NOT happen.

Third, I do want you to start thinking about your H, something you clearly haven't done in years. What this event has done is force you to see him. You married him for a reason; he had attributes that you KNEW you needed in a spouse. What I doubt you saw was that he had more strength than you realize. I also feel you have taken him for granted for much longer than he took for granted how you dressed.

You wanted compliments about your dress. You wanted encouragement. You want... Yet, you clearly take your H for granted. The attributes you so cavalierly cite as reasons for marrying him ARE NOT COMMON. You expect him to survive this. You assume that he is immune to human failings and fears because he has these attributes. You assume that he somehow can take this because he is using all he has learned to hang in there. But, even he will eventually give up HOPE, because as NC said you ARE his HOPE. You have disrespected your H in many ways but probably the worst is to think his attributes are ORDINARY. They are not. It is time you really looked at him. Not with guilt, but with open eyes and see the man that is there. You have been blessed and you do not know it.

Permit me a thought experiment or two. Let's say you got your hearts desire. Your marriage is ended. Your family broken up. You move to be with OM. Let's say he feels the same about you or at least as strongly for you as he did his W why back when. He will divorce her. He will break up his family. And he will marry you. THEN WHAT? You aren't going to be working for him. You are going to have to work somewhere, take care of the house, feed him, etc. Sounds romantic doesn't it? But, there will be bills, and there will be something else. There will be other women. He attracts them, he offers them what they feel they cannot get from their spouse and you will be JUST his W. You won't need the help but they will and he will help them and...

Step back and consider the scenario that I have laid out for you. Is that the life you dream about? Is that what you want? I have not mentioned the damage to all of the innocent people because they don't count. They never counted and they won't count to you or OM, because your love is justification enough. And his love of women will be justification enough to work long hours, help other women, become emotionally and perhaps physically involved with them. You already know you were not the first.

There is no data to suggest that your future with OM will be little different from what I have just laid out for you. This is YOUR Dicken's Christmas story unfolding in real time.

My continued advice to you is to start to take action to treat your H at least like a friend. And friends thank their friends for things done and help. I have never advised you to just forget OM. I don't want you to forget him. I want him playing in your mind, just like a Dickens story to remind you of what "could have been". The feelings will fade, but you should never forget this. NEVER.

Your problem is as you stated you and your H grew apart. That is something YOU BOTH must address and fix. He has other issues to address, but so do you. But, a major problem you have is that you do not appreciate the uniqueness of the man you did marry; he is far from ordinary. He is showing you that his thoughts, his words, and his actions are consistent.

Finally, I may have said this to you before, it is sort of my standard lecture here. There is a big difference between guilt and remorse, and I think you have gotten them confused.

You have guilt when you are DOING something you know is wrong. The feelings of guilt are meant to paralyze you, to stop you from continuing what you are doing. They should have stopped the affair. However, the feelings of guilt are inappropriate when trying to rebuild the marriage, because they stop you from doing things. So lose the guilt.

Remorse is what we are looking for from you. It is what your H wants to see. Not guilt. Why? Remorse is a feeling akin to guilt, but it is not paralyzing. Remorse spurs one to correct the errors, to mend things that were broken, to make right what was wrong. You should remind yourself that you should NOT feel guilty now. You should feel remorse and act accordingly.

BV, it is too late for guilt, so quit it. Simply stop this guilt trip, it is not becoming, it is ineffective, and it is harmful to you, your H, and your family. It is time for remorse BV. That is the feeling you seek. It is the feeling you should confess to feeling in your prayers. You should embrace the remorse for it is your friend, and it will lead you to make correct decisions.

Finally, I think you are a fool, a complete and raving fool, if you feel now or ever felt that your H would NOT want passion in a marriage. He wants it, you want it, so it is time to quit worrying about it and start to open up. Often passion is simply the lack of social restraint that most of us feel, and the full expression of our feelings for someone. You can do this with your H, and he can do it with you.

Given what you two have been through is there anything that you could do with or to him that would be embarrassing? I don't think so. And I think if you put it to him like that, he will agree.

BV, I see great hope for you. I just think you have been fighting the wrong things. Guilt instead of remorse is one. You have been trying to forget OM, instead of just letting the memories come, and addressing your H. Trust me BV you don't want to forget this. The feelings will fade, but you don't want to forget. If you ever decide to see your H for who he is, if you ever decide to help him, if you ever decide to treat him well, you will find that the feelings will come and they will eventually come full force (something you have NEVER felt yet).

The mold is broken, BV. You cannot go back to what you had even if you wanted to. All that remains to be determined is if you will destroy yourself before you decide to go forward with your H to make an even better marriage. Interestingly, you have full control over that.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Good post BV.... it seems you really are getting a lot of things to consider from reading
"Torn Assunder".

"You see, If I had to say what I miss most about the Om, the phys would not be on the list first. What I miss most is ‘emotional side’

Ie phone calls
Txts
Conversation
Listening
Jokes
Laughing
Phys

You see it is the ‘interactive’ things I miss. This is because for 16 months I had them in a deep way."

What is missing (for me) in your post is a recognition that this list of enjoyable activities you enjoyed with OM were STOLEN moments .... taken from his wife.

Do you care? Is his wife ever on your radar? Don't you wonder if he was neglecting his wife and family in order to do these things with you? Do you care?

You care about RAP and her marriage recovery .... yet, you give NO MENTION to the very real hand you play at ruining the marriage of another woman.... why is that?

Pep

BV...I would like to add one thing to JL's awesome post to you. JL mentioned something about not being able to go back to how things were pre-A. I used to wish the same thing. I used to say, God, if I could only go back to things two years ago. Well, it's taking me a year to realize, but God doesn't want me to go back to that point. That point is what led me to the A. Something was obviously wrong with us then to lead us to have the A.

God wants to correct what is wrong in your marriage and with you and your H individually. This is a fresh start to right the wrongs from the past.

Dear JL,

I didn’t get chance to say much last night as I was so sleepy from the tablet. Hope you don’t mind me replying now though. (More ear ache for you though I guess!)

NC’s post really blew me away. I read it and I read it. I want to understand how to recover even though I guess it doesn’t seem obvious sometimes. It’s strange really. Somedays I will have a ‘clear day’ and think I am really coming through this, then another day I will feel ‘cloudy’ again.

Does last Saturday really count with regards to NC? I know I did go back to town in the hope of meeting him, but I didn’t know he was going to be there originally? I guess I don’t want to think of myself as back to square one again?

You said:
You have yet to figure you that this is a TEAM sport you are playing. IF you help your H, he can better help you. If you forgive your H, the things you hold against him and I suspect you do, then he will be better able to heal and you will be able to forgive yourself .

What do you think I hold against me H? I am trying to work my thoughts out in this. I don’t think I ‘hold anything against him??’ I have always said to him that I make no excuses for myself having A whether we were communicating well as H or W or not. Nothing gave me the right to do what I did. I am willing to listen and learn. Perhaps you can see something in me which I haven’t recognized? I really do want to listen JL. Sometimes it takes an ‘outsider’ to see into something more than those on the inside.

You are making some very very severe "disrespectful judgements" of your H and these judgements have clouded your judgement for some time. It is time to stop the DJ's and it is time to forgive your H for whatever it is you are mad at him for.

Can you explain more? I don’t mean to sound disrespectful of him. It is me that is worthy of the ‘no respect’ not him in any way. Am not quite sure what I have said that makes you think this exactly??

I am not consciously mad at him. What would I be mad at him for? He has done nothing.

You may think he is a weak little man that is just happy to be in your presence. A man without desire,or needs or faith, and surely not strength. But, these are ALL DJ's and lies. For the truth is clear in his actions. You just don't want to face the truth that you had the better man, and you went for the spiritually weak and morally bankrupt man.

I guess reading this I can understand what you perhaps mean in how you think I have made DJs of him… Because I said he is quiet, (still waters run deep is the saying here), and I mentioned in a post that I wish he was a bit more ‘aggressive’ or ‘expressive’ or ‘demonstrative’ I can understand that comes over as a DJ.

My H is the first to admit of himself that he is a non enthusiastic person who is not easily motivated..He is sure and faithful and goes along at a steady pace.

Over the recent years JL I have tried believe it or not to be ‘closer’ to him. I suggested a weekend Marriage course years ago and to go for ‘weekends’ away to learn and improve the intimate side of our M. His answer was always ‘We don’t need to go away to improve ‘us’..You know I love you he says even though I don’t say it much.

Maybe you think I am a cold insensitive wife who doesn’t care anyway?

I have (up to time of A) devoted myself over the past 20 years to caring for my family. I have supported my H in whatever career move he made. I never minded we could never buy our own house or have many holidays because we never made much money. I always told him ‘I want you to be happy and fulfilled in your ministry’. I wanted to go to work to earn money so he could do an MA which was an ambition of his.

I always put H and Kids first in everything…That was until A.

My downfall and my mistake.

I deserve your judgment on me for this. I only come across in the words I say. I can understand you probably think of me as a fallen woman who never really cared for the man she married.

We are here, and we aren't going anywhere. Pep, I, and others are your worst nightmare, because we are NOT going to give up on you. You are stuck with us. As my teenage says "sucks for you", but...there you have it. You can run but you cannot hide, we will be here, and we won't give up.

You don’t have to stick by me in this. I would understand if you want to leave off replying to me…

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Broken Vessel -

You can't get rid of us that easy. Everyone will keep replying to you until you get through this!

Kas...I'm going to tell you something. Don't think that you can run JL and Pep off that easily. You see what makes MB so special is that you have other FWS that are there to sympathize and then you have those here like JL and Pep just to name a few, who have an amazing ability of not allowing you to feel sorry for yourself and they make you open your eyes to things that you can't see without their guidance. Listen to them Kas, they have been a Godsend to me.

That is one reason why I don't think that it would be a good idea to have a FWS forum on here. WE would all commesorate with each other and would never get anywhere!!!

Dear JL & Pep,

Ok I guess I asked for it.

Have just read the last posts you have just done to me as I was sending mine.

I have said too much.

Yes I do realise that my moments were stolen from his W.. Him giving them to me were no excuse for my responding.

No I don't believe I can be forgiven and restored
because of this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I shouldn't have shared as much as I have about myself.

Am truly sorry. You are both wasting your time on someone like me.

I do appreciate what you have done for me though.

Really I do.

Kas

Dear JL & Pep,

Ok I guess I asked for it.

Have just read the last posts you have just done to me as I was sending mine.

I have said too much.

Yes I do realise that my moments were stolen from his W.. Him giving them to me were no excuse for my responding.

No I don't believe I can be forgiven and restored
because of this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I shouldn't have shared as much as I have about myself.

Am truly sorry. You are both wasting your time on someone like me.

I do appreciate what you have done for me though.

Really I do.

Kas

BV,


You are answering your own questions here, which is a good thing you just need to see this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You may think he is a weak little man that is just happy to be in your presence. A man without desire,or needs or faith, and surely not strength. But, these are ALL DJ's and lies. For the truth is clear in his actions. You just don't want to face the truth that you had the better man, and you went for the spiritually weak and morally bankrupt man.

I guess reading this I can understand what you perhaps mean in how you think I have made DJs of him… Because I said he is quiet, (still waters run deep is the saying here), and I mentioned in a post that I wish he was a bit more ‘aggressive’ or ‘expressive’ or ‘demonstrative’ I can understand that comes over as a DJ.

My H is the first to admit of himself that he is a non enthusiastic person who is not easily motivated..He is sure and faithful and goes along at a steady pace.

Over the recent years JL I have tried believe it or not to be ‘closer’ to him. I suggested a weekend Marriage course years ago and to go for ‘weekends’ away to learn and improve the intimate side of our M. His answer was always ‘We don’t need to go away to improve ‘us’..You know I love you he says even though I don’t say it much.

Maybe you think I am a cold insensitive wife who doesn’t care anyway?

I have (up to time of A) devoted myself over the past 20 years to caring for my family. I have supported my H in whatever career move he made. I never minded we could never buy our own house or have many holidays because we never made much money. I always told him ‘I want you to be happy and fulfilled in your ministry’. I wanted to go to work to earn money so he could do an MA which was an ambition of his.

I always put H and Kids first in everything…That was until A.

My downfall and my mistake.

I deserve your judgment on me for this. I only come across in the words I say. I can understand you probably think of me as a fallen woman who never really cared for the man she married. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s look at these statements. Consider </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have (up to time of A) devoted myself over the past 20 years to caring for my family. I have supported my H in whatever career move he made. I never minded we could never buy our own house or have many holidays because we never made much money. I always told him ‘I want you to be happy and fulfilled in your ministry’. I wanted to go to work to earn money so he could do an MA which was an ambition of his.

I always put H and Kids first in everything…That was until A.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In short you have made sacrifices for your H. You put your H and kids first, another sacrifice. And you got in return??? A marriage that did NOT satisfy you is that not correct?? I know it did not because you said earlier </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Over the recent years JL I have tried believe it or not to be ‘closer’ to him. I suggested a weekend Marriage course years ago and to go for ‘weekends’ away to learn and improve the intimate side of our M. His answer was always ‘We don’t need to go away to improve ‘us’..You know I love you he says even though I don’t say it much.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“Even though I don’t say it much.” Seems to me you needed to hear it more. Seems to me you KNEW the marriage was not where it should have been, that you two were growing apart and that you were vulnerable.

I think there are things you are mad about or feel you were not given a good a treatment as you think. Things you hold against your H for not doing. Don’t you? He was not as good an H as he should have been.

You know what BV, I am betting he knows it. I am betting he is doing his best to help you out of remorse for what he did and did NOT do. I am betting he feels he failed you. And you know what…he is right. He did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you explain more? I don’t mean to sound disrespectful of him. It is me that is worthy of the ‘no respect’ not him in any way. Am not quite sure what I have said that makes you think this exactly??

I am not consciously mad at him. What would I be mad at him for? He has done nothing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think you could answer the question now? You are not MAD at him, but you are disappointed, you did not feel respected, that your suggestions were not heeded. You felt you sacrificed 20 years for him don’t you?

Now truly in a good marriage the 20 years should not have been a sacrifice, it should have been a journey that you both profited from. It should not been about what you did “for” him but you did “with” him. Do you see the “team sport” coming into focus now?

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don’t have to stick by me in this. I would understand if you want to leave off replying to me… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course we don’t HAVE to, but we want to, in some cases we NEED to. But, what you really need to understand is that the while the “we” are talking about are the people posting to you now, the person that “wants to stick by and NEEDS to stick by you is your H. He can leave as well and you would ‘understand if he wanted to leave off replying to you’. But, BV there is something else you need to understand and clearly you don’t </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My downfall and my mistake.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is NOT YOUR downfall and your H knows it. It is both of yours downfall, your H knows that and he is willing to stay and work on it because he KNOWS he failed you as well. That is why he needs your forgiveness, why he needs your help, it is why he needs YOU. Yes, it was your mistake, but your marriage was failing, your mistake was in how you finally handled it. Your H's mistake was not listening to you about counseling. You both failed to take into account the other person in assessing the importance of various activities hence you grew apart. And yes you are right, good, hard passionate sex would and will help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Are you starting to see the picture now? This is truely a team sport, this is NOT YOUR downfall, it is both of yours failing that led to you making a very very bad decision.

Now does what I said make more sense? I hopes so.

God Bless,

JL

BV,

I am glad my post ministered to you. I am glad it came to you at a time when you needed it. I have a couple of comments to your reply.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This sums it up for me as to how I am where I am. You are right NC. Going back to an unhappy ‘mould’ isn’t what I want. I want to reshape the mould. Make it new. Such pain in thinking about this though and working it out in my mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO you are thinking too much BV. I get the sense that you are working on this plan and trying to deal with the pain. Then when you finish the plan and the pain is gone, you are going to execute the plan. That’s fine for REALLY SHORT TERM stuff, but not what you are going to undertake. People say things like “What is your long term PLAN?” And they, IMHO, misuse the word. What they mean in what is your long term GOAL.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to listen to JL, you and all the others. I want to work on my marriage. I want to love the lorry even if it never becomes a sports car..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even if it never becomes a sports car? Why would you think that is not realistic? Over here in the states, there are a lot of people who like to drag race. You would not BELIEVE the stuff they modify to run fast and straight. I have seen tractors, snowmobiles (with no snow), school buses, and EVEN LORRIES at the drag races. Very fast, very cool.

Know what? You HAVE a GOAL. Soup up that marriage. Make a rocket powered lorry that will thunder by so fast and with so much power and passion that the bystanders will say WOW.

Stop trying to PLAN the whole way to the GOAL. Identify the next STEP. The first necessary little goal to get you on your way. PLAN to THAT GOAL. You may find that you make mistakes and have to adjust your plan with new information. That’s the way it works. If you plan too far ahead, you are wasting your efforts. Because PLANS HAVE TO CHANGE.

IMHO you should have 3 goals. Where do BV and Mr. BV want to be in 1 month, 6 months and 1 year. You should be fairly detailed in your mind how to achieve the 1 month goal. You should have a reasonable idea on the 6 month goal. And the 1 year goal should be little more than a list of GOALS that are between the 6 mo and 1 year goal. Any more detail is WASTED EFFORT because it will MOST LIKELY change.

Every month, plan the NEXT month pretty well, to get to the NEW 1 month GOAL. Rough in the actions to take you to the new 6 month goal. And scan the LIST for the 1 year GOAL just to make sure it still matches the end GOAL. Soup up that lorry.

Notice I said rough in the ACTIONS.

Here is what I want you to do. Sit down with Mr. BV. I want the two of you to come up with lists. I want you to list the list the little things that Mr. BV could do to make you feel warm and fuzzy. They must be LITTLE things. Because of the hurt, big things take too much effort now. They come saddle with too many unrealistic expectations. I want a list of at least a dozen little things Mr. BV could do to make you think “That’s sweet.” Stop thinking of it as a test. You are not TESTING your spouse to see if he would be a good spouse. You were supposed to do that when you were dating. Fact is, he is your spouse now so there is nothing wrong with GIVING HIM THE ANSWERS TO THE TEST.

Your list should be something like:
1) Make a nice comment about my hair.
2) Come up behind me and give me a kiss on the back of the neck when I am working at the sink.
3) As you walk through the house, take the time to see if there are any used dishes that need to be carried to the kitchen.
4) Say thanks if the dinner I make is good.
5) Wrestle on the floor with the kids.

It is almost the “I wish my husband would do that list.” But REMEMBER, they can’t take a lot of effort. Make Mr. BV do the same thing. What is HIS list of things you could do that would make him say “That’s sweet.” Make HIM smile. The more the better. Give him the answers to the test, he should give you the answers to his.

It would be helpful if you posted your lists here. But I want you to go out and get a piece of paper and write your lists, like on a poster or playbill, and put them somewhere you will see them every day. Like your bathroom. Kitchen would be better because the two of you are probably in there more often. But if you are not comfortable because the neighbors might see, then in your room.

(NCWalkers aside: Isn’t shame grand? How many of you reading this would be comfortable with a list of things to make me feel special on a poster in your kitchen? How desperate are you to save your M? Desperate enough to look strange to the rest of the world? Is it important enough that “keeping up appearances” can go by the wayside as you reach out to your spouse? Or is fitting in more important to you? What would your kids think? Ever think they might learn how to be in a better M than you did? Are you willing to scream in the street in the middle of the night “I love my spouse” and let the neighbors throw shoes at you? What IS most important in your life? Shame. It’s really grand.)

Then for ONE WEEK try and do as many of those things as you can for each other. Don’t neglect your lives. Try to work in as many as you can.

ACTION BV. It is time for ACTION. Baby steps will get you there, but you have to start making them. Action will force you to think about something else, other than the pain. Start small, build from there, but ALWAYS build and you WILL get there. The feelings will follow.

[QOUTE] Yes I feel I am hopeless, but No I don’t want to quit. I want to find out if it will work. If I didn’t hang on in here how will I ever know if it could have worked, and if It was really possible to get over OM and have a new mould in my marriage?[/QUOTE]

BV, hanging on is not enough. You are human and imperfect. If you don’t climb the rope to safety you will tire and fall off. Remember PHI 4:13. You should KNOW it is possible just from that. I would ask, why not climb the rope and enjoy what IS UP THERE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still can’t believe how God put you people into my life when I needed you the most.

That amazes me.

Isn’t that a sort of hope? He prepared the help for me in ADVANCE knowing I would need you people across the world who I don’t even know?

That amazes me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Know what is interesting? When I post (unless I am venting, and sometimes then) I usually re-read my posts a few times and make edits. I know people will read and maybe even study what I say, so I try and be clear and careful with what I am saying. Here is how that post to you went. RAP read YOUR post and really felt for you. She mentioned how you had referred to the “dark side” thing. I was really hurting. The demon’s were after me and I was feeling pain. I didn’t want to.

Was feeling really hurt by RAP way out of proportion from what she did.

RAP said I needed to post to you because of that dark side reference, almost like YOU were needing to hear from ME. My first reaction was “screw BV, I don’t feel like it” but something put a check in my spirit. So I sat down and started typing. I had no idea what to say to you. I just started typing. The tears started flowing and the emotions came out and it helped me to just let my emotions out. I don’t do that so well. I typed that whole thing non-stop. Without pausing or stopping to read back what I typed. The Spirit was really doing the typing. I could not have done that on my own.

Yeah, that is pretty amazing. Kind of makes the souped up lorry seem possible too, doesn’t it? I mean if God can do what he just did, why can’t he do that? He can.

On to some other news. I was in a lot of pain because I felt like RAP hadn’t been reaching out at all. She was in small ways, but this weekend was a big hammer to my heart. So big that her little acts of grace were falling on deaf ears. She wanted to sit next to me and be close last night but was afraid to because she thought that if I wanted sex I would be disappointed. I kind of did want sex and she had picked up on the signals. She gave me the answers to the test. We had a nice talk and I said if she came over here and I knew what she expected – what she could and could not handle, it would be OK with me. We knew each others expectations. Expectations are a horrible thing. If you come up with them on your own, they’ll never be met. If you come up with them together, they will. So we went to bed with the expectation that we would just be “close”. Wasn’t enough for me, was almost too much for her, but there were no unrealistic expectations. And it was nice. We were just close. She lay next to me. We read some Psalms together. We got tired and turned out the light. She rolled over and I wrapped my arms around her and she said I made her feel safe. She had told me before that is how the OM made her feel. And last night she said it to me. Made me feel like I was in there, somewhere. She reached out to me and it was nice. I comforted her and it was nice. A baby step, but a step.

Give your husband the answers to the test. Take the steps.

NCWalker

BV,

Thought about what I said a bit. I think you should put your list up here for us first. These things need to be real, and concrete.

"Love me" is not tangible. They need to be specific enough that Mr. BV knows what you mean.

If you post them here, me or JL or someone could say "Yeah. I could do that." Then you would have the idea right. Then you could look at his list and see if it made sense, or post it here and have one of the WWs say "Yeah, I could do that."

NCWalker

NcW, could you be anymore articulate??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm guessing RaP ate too much cookie dough and she is bloated beyond belief and can not come to the computer.

Let her know I understand her wanting time away. I'll be happy to chat with her when she gets ready to post, if she ever does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BV, how you doing today??? Have you found anymore chocolate?? I just found a Snickers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]</small>

Dear NC (& RAP – Hi dear RAP)

Ok. Well I’ll be honest. This is the lowdown on the last hour.

I am sitting here pouty lipped and moody, and feeling sorry for myself and hurting because of JL & Pep’s posts to me.

I know if I don’t reply to them, I will end up leaving MB’s on the wrong ‘footing’ as it were, and I truly don’t want that because I need them, and I know I have to keep posting JL and talking to him. I know I need that very much. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I will reply to you first, as your post has just come in.

IMHO you are thinking too much BV. I get the sense that you are working on this plan and trying to deal with the pain. Then when you finish the plan and the pain is gone, you are going to execute the plan.

Yes I am thinking too much. I am an ‘organizer’ and I guess I am trying to plan and organize this ‘recovery ’in my M as much as I would a ‘job’ almost. In life I tend to think, plan, organize and execute plan. I have to accept I can’t do that in this. I want a ‘quick fix’ a ‘make it alright now’ potion so I don’t have to deal with the reality of the pain.

Even if it never becomes a sports car? Why would you think that is not realistic?

I am having a ‘status quo’ attitude in this aren’t I? I feel what has been always has to be and can’t be anything better. It seems an impossibility to imagine it can.

Know what? You HAVE a GOAL. Soup up that marriage. Make a rocket powered lorry that will thunder by so fast and with so much power and passion that the bystanders will say WOW.

I am truly at a loss with myself to think I can be any different. I hate myself. I know that is strong words, but I do.

Stop trying to PLAN the whole way to the GOAL. Identify the next STEP

Why am I able to do this in a job but not in my M? In a job I am all for planning little steps to achieve a big goal.

Here is what I want you to do. Sit down with Mr. BV. I want the two of you to come up with lists. I want you to list the list the little things that Mr. BV could do to make you feel warm and fuzzy. They must be LITTLE things. Because of the hurt, big things take too much effort now.

You got a smile out of me here calling my H ‘Mr BV’..! I was quite amused. Ok will do a list. We have done an EN questionnaire each, but would you believe we haven’t looked at each other’s yet. Why? I guess we thought we didn’t ‘need to’ now we were talking more. I am all for lists. I make them all the time. Warm and fuzzy feelings…Hard task but will try.. Will talk with Mr BV and see what we both come up with and let you know over weekend.

It is a hard thing to ask me to do because I still feel I am an ‘unfeeling’ and ‘uncaring’ and ‘unloveable’ person to Mr BV at the moment.

Then for ONE WEEK try and do as many of those things as you can for each other. Don’t neglect your lives. Try to work in as many as you can.

You know what? When I confessed A to husband 16 weeks ago it seemed we made more time for each other and I used to ask to be ‘hugged’ to sleep believe it or not, and just cry in his arms like a baby.

Now as time going on I seem to have gone backwards again, and into withdrawal of myself. Don’t want any phys contact or touching at all?

BV, hanging on is not enough. You are human and imperfect. If you don’t climb the rope to safety you will tire and fall off. Remember PHI 4:13. You should KNOW it is possible just from that. I would ask, why not climb the rope and enjoy what IS UP THERE.

I want to climb to the top. I don’t want to be here in this pit or just hanging on by a thread.

I am scared because I don’t know how low God will let me fall, in order to learn this lesson. Maybe I am testing God?

RAP read YOUR post and really felt for you. She mentioned how you had referred to the “dark side” thing. I was really hurting. The demon’s were after me and I was feeling pain. I didn’t want to

Am glad RAP mentioned it to you (thanks loads RAP). I thought you were sort of mad with me too because me and her were kind of similar. I thought in fact you were ‘hugely’ mad at me (not directly though) just frustrated with me I guess.

RAP said I needed to post to you because of that dark side reference, almost like YOU were needing to hear from ME. My first reaction was “screw BV, I don’t feel like it” but something put a check in my spirit.

Yes, I did need to hear from YOU and what you said in your post, though I would never have expected it to happen in the way it did, nor did I realize that I needed to hear from you until I did hear from you if you see what I mean.

The Spirit was really doing the typing. I could not have done that on my own.

For a ‘stranger’ to say that to me can only be God talking to me through this. I somehow ‘knew’ when RAP started to post on here after you, and the things you said in your earlier posts were what I needed to hear. In a kind of ‘hard’ way, RAP doing what she did and me doing what I did, made a sort of ‘kindred’ spirit between us I guess (especially with the timing side for both of us). This then made me listen to you too, and what you were saying and venting. It ‘spoke to me’ somehow.

Expectations are a horrible thing. If you come up with them on your own, they’ll never be met. If you come up with them together, they will.

That is very true. Am glad about that ‘step’ for you both last night. I will work on the list with Mr BV and let you know.

Thanks NC.

Thanks RAP.

(ps Another step forward for the Proverbs 31 ladies don’t ya think)

Am going to post JL & Pep now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Kas
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> (one day I hope to have more smiles on my posts than tears)

ps NC

Just read your post. Yes that is a good idea. I will do that and put my list here first for you & JL to give some feedback on.

That would be good for me to do it that way.

Would RAP (sort of be me in this as we are at a similar point)and give feedback (via you) if she prefers on Mr BV's list?

I understand if she prefers not too though. No pressure on her from me at all.

Will let you have my list tomorrow and Mr BV's over the weekend (as I have more time in day than him to think about it)

Have a good evening.

Love to you both,

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear KY4, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What would I do without you guys over there, being over here for me, even though you are not in reality over here but over there....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

For all my 'chocolate detecting' this morning I found nothing... Did call by the garage (the only one by me) and get my favourite... Galaxy minstrels...Choc coated choclate upon chocolate... Wish I had bought more.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Do you know the garage had the nerve to run out of MY PERSONAL SUPPLY of favourite chocs?? How dare they? What sort of weird people stay in a rut with their chocolate eating habit anyway...?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That happend to me before too... Think I will have to write a personal letter of 'not appreciation' to the garage soon....

Don't want them to get offended with me though and put a ban up on me having fuel/gas from them.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I still haven't had any offers of an American phrase book yet....??

Glad you still there KY4,

I do like evenings cos I know you guys over there will be posting me over here. It gets a bit lonely and hard in the afternoon here when you all are asleep...

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BV...

The pressure you are getting from me
is because
in my hand
I hold
one "sisterhood" membership card
with your name on it
entitling
the owner (you)
to full
benifits
once
you take
the
oath

I want you to rejoin the sisterhood....

come back in
we look out for each other
we love one another
and we have
trust
and
faith
in the sisterhood
because we
are
good
and
true
to
every
sister


come back.... we miss you

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear JL,

Are you there still?? Am sorry. I guess I got a bit upset earlier.

Just sat and had a good cry and got it out my system. Up and down emotions really.

It hurt a bit the 4x4 from you & pep.

Yes I did know it was stolen time with OM from his wife.

Dave carder does say though on p133 'torn asunder'

"The purpose of this chapter is not to make you or your mate feel guilty. To have accusation haped upon shame and failure is more than most individuals can bear. There is usually already enough shame and guilt around to last a generation or two. Rather, the purpose is simply to uncover the reasons the infidel strayed"

I guess I felt this way. I know what I did was wrong. I know there is no excuse for it WHATSOEVER.

In sharing my feelings on withdrawal from OM however, I am trying to 'open' up myself to you but I never mean to come accross as having no thoughts for OMW, or to have no shame for what I did.

I am terribly ashamed. I only share all my thoughts here to let you know where I am at now in this moment of time.

I don't want to give any illusions of a false repentance and recovery. I want you to see the real me..

I could not say anything about OM and give the impression that I am doing ok and that is a closed chapter on my feelings.

The only reason I post 'openly' to you is to be totally honest and open before you and God too.

I know and ask for the 4x4's and want to learn really I do, but I do feel guilt and shame. I really do. Is it better for me not to post my feelings any more? If there are other FWW reading this would they rather hear me 'in the raw' as it were than a spiritually cloaked up person pretending she is ok when inside she is broken?

I am broken. I want to be restored. I want to believe there is hope for me in being restored.

JL I never would have left H. I said all along my A was one of an entirely selfish nature. We were both cake eaters to borrow a phrase from here.

Never have I imagined leaving H for OM nor he for me.

He is gone and making a new life with his W and family.

I am here. I don't want to leave. I need your help in being restored.

I am in withdrawal and you guys on this site are, (besides H and God) ALL I HAVE TO GET THROUGH THIS.

There is no one else for me to talk to. I am serious in this.

My evenings are my 'best time' for coping in the day because I know you are there at the end of the post even though far away.

Afternoons my worst. You guys are working or asleep.

Hope you will all bear with me for a while anyway??

Have to log off now as kids turn for the pc.

Hope I will have a reply to wake up to in the morning.

By the way, You are all helping me to re-shape my life by being there for me.

Kas <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I need you and your input. Don't go??

Dear Pep,

Thanks. Was just going to log off when I saw your reply.

I appreciate that.

Sometimes I find it hard to know what to say. I don't want you to feel I am having a pity party on myself,and I don't want you to feel I am just 'saying' things like You guys mean a lot to me' just for the sake of it.

You all REALLY do mean a lot to me and I need you all in my life. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

You guys over there (or wherever you are in the world) are ALL I have to talk to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know God led me to this site.

I know you are all VITAL to my recovery with H and Marriage.

Goodnite all of you,

Love you all loads (really!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Believer, goodnite (are you ok??)

Will check in tomorrow when I wake up as Believer seems to be nearer my time zone.

Hope you will be there in the morning Believer?

Kas (bit more mended vessell?)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It hurt a bit the 4x4 from you & pep.

Ask yourself what actually hurts.... is it your pride perhaps?

That is easily repaired.

Do something wonderful, and your pride will be restored.

Yes I did know it was stolen time with OM from his wife.

And....? So what?

"The purpose of this chapter is not to make you or your mate feel guilty. To have accusation haped upon shame and failure is more than most individuals can bear. There is usually already enough shame and guilt around to last a generation or two. Rather, the purpose is simply to uncover the reasons the infidel strayed"

ONE of the reasons you allowed yourself to stray is because you made a decision NOT to care about HIS wife ....

And I am nudging you to begin to care again....

NOT to make you suffer, but to protect you, protect HER, and to protect all other WIVES ....

In sharing my feelings on withdrawal from OM however, I am trying to 'open' up myself to you but I never mean to come accross as having no thoughts for OMW, or to have no shame for what I did.

Well, little sister, time to open up.... if I were the WIFE of the man you coveted.... what would you like to say to me now?

I am terribly ashamed. I only share all my thoughts here to let you know where I am at now in this moment of time.

I don't care about your shame... I want to see your new leaf.... where is it?


I know and ask for the 4x4's and want to learn really I do, but I do feel guilt and shame. I really do. Is it better for me not to post my feelings any more?

Pouty face..... time to stop all the navel-gazing and make some real changes....

Shame and guilt.... OK so what? Now what? Let's move along.

Do you feel a bond with THE WIFE in the sense that she is a sister to you ... in the way that Jesus commands?


I am broken. I want to be restored. I want to believe there is hope for me in being restored.

Role play with me.

I am THE WIFE .... help ME NOW .... I want to heal too.... what can you do to help me, THE WIFE, stop hurting?


There is no one else for me to talk to. I am serious in this.

Role play. Talk to me, HIS WIFE .... ask ME questions .... we can role play this out to restore you to wholeness. YOU, BV ,need to confront THE WIFE and get through your shame.

Hiding hurts you.

I am willing to role play, and you may find the task is not as frightening as it may seem.

Woman to woman discussion ....... not OW to OW pity party.

Pity pot is full..... now do something else.

To struggle with your own feelings over and over is rather self-absorbed and continues the downward spiral of woe is me.....

Try struggling with something else.... try asking THE WIFE for forgiveness....

Pep

BV,

I think you need to reread the last two pages of this thread again. You missed a few I fear. First, you are not lost nor is this beyond hope by any means.

You mentioned that you asked Mr.BV to hold you when you went to sleep early on. And now you don't. This is normal in withdrawal, but it is probably time for you to ask him to hold you again.

BV, let him hold you. Let Mr. BV do what he is supposed to do, comfort you. He will. That is part of the healing that must go on. He can do alot to heal you, if you let him.

Which brings me to the issue of punishment. I'm thinking that you think that you deserve some punishment for what you did. You deserve Mr. BV to yell, not want you, perhaps even leave you for what you did. If you were a little girl you would expect to be spanked. But none of that is happening is it? So you are punishing yourself, you are withholding yourself from Mr. BV because you KNOW he will comfort you and heal you and you don't deserve that do you?

Well, BV you are wrong very very wrong. So you need to stop punishing yourself. You need to stop being so down. It has been my observation that God has a much different punishment for you. Oh! it is incidious (sp), it is called "happiness".

I have been reading here for many years and the one punishment that seems to always work and seems God given is "happiness". I'll explain it to you in a moment, but when you come back ask Pep about her H's punishment it has been many years and they are very happy together, but he still regrets what he did. He will die with that regret.

You see it was a Brit (Shaw, Churchill, someone) who said the "best revenge is a life well lived". You will recover BV. Your marriage will prosper as it never has before, your children will do well. You will find that passion and so will your H and he will love it and you more than ever. And you will be happy.

And the punishment,is that you had to learn your lessons, you had to go to the blackboard of life and write hundreds perhaps thousands of times " I know what I need to do." And you will do it, but nothing will remove the regret of the A. That will be your punishment.

It will come as a life long lesson leading to a very successful life (that is what you are supposed to do), and it will come with the regret showing against the brillance of your recovery.

And for this you will get what you deserve: an H that loves you, children that love you, and happiness. You see BV learning has its pain and costs but it has its rewards. This is simply a learning experience, it is NOT the definition of who you are or will be.

Now do you see why we post here, and are posting to you? Do you finally understand why Harley's approach of trying to work it out, facing our own failures while dealing with those of our spouse is so important. All of this...is just a lesson. We can learn and grow or we can refuse.

People from all sides of this post to you to help you because they know, "that this to shall pass" and it is a learning experience, painful yes, permenant not if you learn and grow. This is not the end it is the beginning.

You are probably in your mid-40's. Given the current life expectancy you will be married another 40 years or so. This period is only a small blip in 60 years isn't it? It is an important one, it is a learning experience for YOU and Mr. BV( you can tell I like that as well.)

So stop with the crying, stop with the sorrow, and start learning. You and your H need to learn how to love each other as you each need. Start with small steps as NCW said. Join the sisterhood as that "sexist" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> suggested. But, realize you just tripped BV, you did NOT drop in to a bottomless pit.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>