What would happen to you if you did not possess those items in your character? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I see only 2 possible options at this time:

option #1
perpetual victimhood

option #2
sociopath

It is impossible. Lack of what you might consider values and morals is in itself a value system.

Kinda like atheism. It is a type of theology...one that purports that God does not exist.

Now, assuming, theoretically that it was possible, then this person would be reduced to the level of a lower animal of some sort, acting entirely on base instinct (reptile, maybe?). I say lower animal, because I think we are starting to learn that higher life forms (dolphins, higher primates) may very well have the ability to act in fashion that contadicts their instinct. To do this requires a value system.

I don't think humans are capable of functioning at all without adopting some kind of value system.

Low

Now cardinal....

I have a hypothetical FOR YOU !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What would happen to ~a people~ if their culture did not possess those same items?

????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardinal:
<strong> What would happen to you if you did not possess those items in your character? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....career criminal, divorce lawyer or....

Michael Moore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I've seen it. No redeeming qualities. The only goal in life is personal pleasure and self-indulgence. There may be some appearance of empathy, but the ultimate goal is Me! Me! Me! -DT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardinal:
<strong> What would happen to you if you did not possess those items in your character? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....career criminal, divorce lawyer or....

Michael Moore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bwahahahaaa! Good one, drose! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Our prisons are full of people who have no "morals" and can't judge right from wrong. They are right where they belong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Now cardinal....

I have a hypothetical FOR YOU !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What would happen to ~a people~ if their culture did not possess those same items?

????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a society perpetuates the lack of values morals and judgements, well- it is called mayhem. People get locked up for that stuff!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by desperatelytrying:
<strong> I've seen it. No redeeming qualities. The only goal in life is personal pleasure and self-indulgence. There may be some appearance of empathy, but the ultimate goal is Me! Me! Me! -DT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to agree with you. And the funny thing is that when a person, or a society will continue on this path...the opposite of what they want/need will eventually occur, I think.

And they will end up with nothing.

JMO!

cardinal,

I've noticed that you like to post this type of thread (and I like to respond to them!)

However, I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate over in the "Other" forum under Issues?

Low

I think that this is highly appropriate for this part of the forum. If you recognize a pattern in what you do, how you do it, and what got you to this point in life, I think that you would see that it is highly appropriate for general questions. It is a process of getting to think about, questions about our values, our morals, and of course our judgements.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If a society perpetuates the lack of values morals and judgements, well- it is called mayhem. People get locked up for that stuff!

I am not a history buff... do you (anyone else) know the name of any historical culture that collapsed due lack of cultural values morals and judgements?

Pep

Pep:

"I am not a history buff... do you (anyone else) know the name of any historical culture that collapsed due lack of cultural values morals and judgements?"

How about the "seat of civilization?" Seems they've collapsed repeatedly over the past 5 or 6000 years. Present day included.

-ol' 2long

So, to bring this back to a context of infidelity, are you proposing that people have affairs because they've chosen a values system that gives them permission to do so?

Personally, I think the number of people who choose infidelity as an acceptable way of life is very small.

Most of what you see represented here are people who've made some very poor choices as a response to some sort of stressor.

If you were to interview us WS's, I doubt you'd find many that would say the infidelity was ok...even if you'd asked them in the middle of their affair!

No, we primarily see some kind of emotional/psychological schism that causes one to disconnect from the value system they'd like to believe in. People are prepared to deal with these internal crises to varying degrees.

The only caution I'd suggest is that we always draw a firm distinction between the person and their actions.

I might think homosexuality is wrong. But I also think it is wrong for me to say they are bad people and I can't love them because they are immoral. I can care about them without sanctioning their choices.

I suppose by focusing on the actions, it allows us to hold hope that people can change their actions.

Labeling a person as flawed or immoral seems so damning...like you've condemned them to a life of nothing better. When you label someone as valueless and immoral it allows you to see them as something less than a wonderful creation of God. It allows you to internally elevate yourself if you believe you have superior values and morals.

The question "What would happen if we did not possess [values, morals, and judgements]?" is entirely academic since it is not possible. The wholly academic nature of the discussion is what prompted me to suggest posting in the "Other" section.

I would argue that the most principled people in the world are responsible for the most barbarous acts...in the name of values and morality. Many recent examples in the news.

So, the question is never "Do we lack values?" BUT "What value system will we choose and how will I live those values?"

Low

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Great post LowOrbit and good question Pepperband.

The Fall of the Roman Empire immediately came to my mind. Looks like there were many intermingling reasons, among them, decline in morals and values.

Some others were decline in public health and environmental problems. Political corruption, unemployment, poverty, inflation, urban decay, inflated military spending....etc.

The list goes on...scary, but does anything of this sound familiar or applicable to present day?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not a history buff... do you (anyone else) know the name of any historical culture that collapsed due lack of cultural values morals and judgements?

Pep </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ummmm....Sodom and Gomorrah?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Pep = magic carpet genius!

:-)

(only Susan knows so don't anyone else try to "get this")</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROFL about this!

Susan

There is much to be said about the ability to relate ones own belief system/thought process/decision making process, linking them together and just see what you have got there. Our personal behaviors are a result of our beliefs/thoughts.

Our experiences ought to be teaching us something all along the way. If at one time we thought one thing, but experience has shown us that something else is true, we need to see and accept that. If we made a mistake, but do not accept that we are responsible for that mistake, then we won't get the surity to keep life free of that mistake next time...

So, to be clear and to make a wholesome kind of life, then we need to be clear as to just what kind of boundaries we need. What kinds of values, morals and judgements will support a healthier life.

Is there is a direct correlation to our decisions in how we think/behave, and what our life ends up with. I think so.

If we are simply coming up with excuses for behaviors, and not working at the things that will make marriage good, where are you going with it. ?

A life lacking in values, morals and judgements will be reflected in the quality of it, I think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A life lacking in values, morals and judgements will be reflected in the quality of it, I think. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have repeated asserted that a valueless and amoral existance is impossible. I can only assume that you believe it is and have chosen not to debate that point.

So this leads to the natural progression - Who's value system do you suggest is superior and should be implemented for all that we may avoid being labeled valueless and amoral?

Low

I think that you have to figure it out for yourself Low. Just as anyone that I have ever met has done. If you are happy with your life, then you are there. And if your family is doing well, then you are doubly blessed.