For those who don't know, my WW has only spent a few nights at home in the past few weeks, and those times she has been mostly cold and cruel, despite my positive attitude, my friendliness, and my efforts to give her space and privacy. She is moving into her own place on 1 July.

I was thinking today that despite the fact that she continues doing what she is doing, and shows no plan to change, and treats me horribly, I might forgive her. Now, forgiveness is something that seems normally to arise during recovery in a marriage, but I was just thinking, I can choose to forgive her whenever I want to. Why not now? I don't even have to tell her. Any thoughts? Is forgiveness more of a process than an event, and am I just being dumb, or is this something I can really do right now if I want?

GC

graycloud, I think there is a difference between forgiveness and letting go of your anger. You can do one without the other. Forgiveness is for the OTHER person, not you, and I believe you should forgive her IF she asks for your forgiveness.

Otherwise, you can't really give something she won't accept.

That is different from letting go of your anger. You will want to work through it and release your anger. But it is normal and healthy to be angry at injustice so I wouldn't suggest supressing it, but working through it. You would be abnormal if you WEREN'T angry. You can't really flip a switch and turn it off at will. Usually time and acceptance helps you release that anger.

So just hang in there. With some it helps them to come here and talk about it. You might find that helpful.

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I don't know, MelodyLane, if I agree that forgiveness is something for her. The idea of forgiving my W made me feel wonderful, and not because I thought it would make her change her mind.

Anyway, I'm probably just shooting at any old target I can find. And I am probably burying my anger. I'm working so hard to see things from her perspective that I hardly even know where my feelings are. When she hurts me it seems to go away so quickly. Like my doctor told me, I should see an IC soon and figure some of this out. This mean person is just so unlike my wife that her actions don't change my attitude about my wife. I guess I'm remembering the person she has been, not the person she is. Maybe that person is truly gone and she's been permanently replaced by this prideful, hard-hearted, ugly individual. I just don't believe it. But maybe I'm fooling myself.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I don't know, MelodyLane, if I agree that forgiveness is something for her. The idea of forgiving my W made me feel wonderful, and not because I thought it would make her change her mind.


GC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">graycloud, please don't bury your anger. That is just as bad as obsessing over it and will only lead to depression. If you bury it, it will keep coming up over and over again. You have very good reason to be angry.

Thank you MelodyLane; I'm depressed already, but I can't have it getting worse. Maybe I should go home, put on some rock, and let that punching bag have it.

GC

You know I have a different point of view then ML.... I truelly believe that forgiveness is fo us (the BS). Now this may be more in a Christian perspective... but you know WS may never come right out and ask for forgiveness. It is for ourself to say point blank, "I forgorive him/ her" and even so far as the OW/OM. FOrgiveness comes from our heart. How much shame, sin, guilt...etc did Jesus carry on that cross that faithfull day he died for us? All of it. And still He keeps forgiving us even though we are all sinful.. we just are by nature.... but yet He forgives us. I've tried hard to come to a place to make that decision, that choice to place it on my heart to say yes I have forgiven FWS, and I think I am there... and now it's time for me to come to a place where it's pressing on my heart to forgive the OW (formerly a very close friend of mine before they had an EA).... I jsut need to do it because if I don't it will consume me and keep feeling me with anger and vengence. I do not want that. Roman's 12:19 says, "Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[1] says the Lord."... Now don't you think God has a way better plan then we could ever fathom in making those who do us wrong? I think so. That said,,,.... I've forgiven my FWS... not the ow yet... but i do want to and I know it will come to pass. I've given it all to Him. Oh and no I do not think you have to tell the WS you've forgive them... it's not for them, it's for you!

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Doing His will ]</small>

Graycloud,

I'm of the opinion that forgiveness would be for your benefit. I also believe that forgiveness is part of the grieving process (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance). Mainly that forgiveness is part of the acceptance part of the process.

DHW, I appreciate your perspective, but I don't agree that yours is the biblical standard at all. Forgiveness is a gift that we give to the forgivee, not something that is passed out like cheap candy or something to make us "feel good" of holier than thou. That is a selfish misuse of a beautiful gift.

The purpose is to reconcile ourselves to our brother, not to make ourselves feel good and holy moly.

God does not forgive those who do not repent. He doesn't pass out mass forgiveness like cheap candy to those who neither want or need his forgiveness. His standard is to forgive those who repent and ASK for forgiveness.

Passing out forgiveness to someone who neither wants or needs forgiveness does a great disservice to our fallen brother. It denies them any motivation to change and repent. It cheapens the beautiful gift of forgiveness.

Now, I will agree that it is a great sin to NOT forgive those who seek it. The Bible is most clear on that point.

But we must never suppose that our standard of forgiveness is higher than God's standard. He objectively offers us forgiveness and reconciliation. However, he does not forgive us until we repent.

Acts 2:38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Luke 17
3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

I am also struggling with forgiveness. FWH has told me many times that he is sorry and regrets his actions, but he has never actually asked me to forgive him. I can't say why, but it is important to me that he, at some point, asks for forgiveness.

I have also thought long and hard about forgiving the OW. You know what? According to H, she never thought she was doing anything wrong. How do you forgive someone who doesn't think they need forgiveness?

I agree that repentance is very important. --DT

Gray -

Have you ever read "The Art of Happiness", written
by His Holiness the Dalai Lama & H.C. Cutler M.D.?

It's an incredible book and changed my way of viewing so many things about life.

When someone hurts me I try to say a silent prayer asking God to bless them, and this always brings me a feeling of peace.

I have a very hard time hating someone I love. It causes so much pain for me. I think I know what you are going through right now.

And although somebody might not be rependent you can still love them and forgive them. It takes great strength to let go of anger, in my opinion.

Even on the cross Jesus forgave his murderer's, he said "forgive them Father, they know not what they do".

Mel - no offense to you and your views, I really like to read what you write and you were very kind to me when I first told my story. I like your "moxy'!

gc,

I breezed through the posts pretty quick but this stood out to me. ML said:

Forgiveness is for the OTHER person, not you, and I believe you should forgive her IF she asks for your forgiveness.

I will disagree with this. Forgiveness is for me, you, ML or anyone else that has been wronged. I don't think forgiveness (among us human types) is reciprocal. Forgiveness isn't conditional.....I'll forgive if they are sorry.

If our hearts are tainted with anger, hate and unforgiveness how can God reside there. I'll paraphrase a quote from "What's so amazing about grace, "Sometimes I think that the only person to truly benefit from forgiveness is the person doing the forgiving."

I spoke to my church's Divorce Care this past Tuesday and forgiveness was the topic. I'm no bible scholar but when people ask me why or how to forgive the why is pretty obvious, the how is difficult.


Why........
Matthew 6
14. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How....
I prayed like crazy for God to work in my heart. To open it up to my wife as He does for us.

gc,

The decision to forgive is an event. It is easy to make the decision to forgive. I am sure many of us here have made decisions that we had every intention in following through with. Quitting smoking, dieting, exercising, and forgiving our spouse that has flown the coop for what the did to us.

Forgiveness is a process. Sometimes a difficult process because it isn't a natural act for most of us. But God calls us to be not of this world, but of His world.

I'm sure other will differ from my opinion....but that is what you asked for....right?

God Bless

Doug

I agree with you Doug.

The one who is hurt the most by our unforgiveness is ourselves. The act of forgiving can be liberating and necessary.

Who are we not to forgive? As the 'Our Father' states...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Trix ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
gc,


I will disagree with this. Forgiveness is for me, you, ML or anyone else that has been wronged. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, and this is where we disagree. Forgiveness is INTENDED for the forgivee, not for ourselves. We don't forgive OURSELVES. The point of forgiveness is to reconcile our relationship, not to make ourselves "feel" good. But it is all for naught if the person neither wants or needs or cares about our forgiveness. God doesn't forgive those of us who neither want or care about his forgiveness.

Now, that does not mean we shouldn't release our anger. We are not supposed to harbor grudges or carry hatred. We are supposed to release all that, but forgiveness is not required to do so. And passing out wholesale forgiveness, that no one wants, makes it NOT A GIFT, but a cheap way to "feel good."

And yes, the Bible commands that we do forgive, but it made it clear on what terms we forgive. We forgive IF the person repents, just as God forgives us IF AND WHEN we repent as it shows in the Bible.

But we shouldn't suppose that we have a higher standard than God in forgiveness.

Luke 17: 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

ML -- I don't think you should equate forgiveness and reconciliation. Those are two different actions. I may forgive someone -- but for my own health and safety not wish to be reconciled to them. (For example, a compulsive child-beater may be sorry each time he cracks a bone, but I'd be a fool and worse to keep exposing my loved ones to him.)

AM, I do see your point and there most certainly are situations where reconcilation of relationship wouldn't be appropriate. But even though there are situations where future contact wouldn't take place, we are still required to forgive that person if he asks.

Well, I’m new to this site, as far as posting anyway, my wife spends, in my opinion, way to much time here.

That being said, this particular subject is one that I struggle with every day. The basic struggle of forgiveness has at it root, the mature being that we all strive to become, but fall short. Whether we are the victims {which we all are by our very natures}
In the Lords Prayer He gives us a magic formula: Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us

ML,

I wasn't saying that it was just for us...I should have said "us too."

And I'm not saying to forgive just so I can feel better. That would be insincere and self-serving, not the image I want to portray as a christian.


Luke 17: 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

What I get from this is that we are commanded to forgive if they repent not just if they repent. That if someone seeks it out from us, then, as Christians, we must forgive them.

We are called to be like Christ and for me that means trying to forgive even if someone doesn't ask for it. That I try to extend the grace that has been showed to me to others.

I mentioned a book earlier "Whats So Amazing About Grace" (Yancey). It is a good read on this subject.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying.

God Bless

Doug

d_rose, I absolutely agree we have to forgive if someone asks, but on the condition that they repent. That is God's standard for us and the standard explicity laid down for us. But if they DON'T ask, there is no reason to forgive except to make ourselves feel good. That is a misuse of forgiveness and is useless.

However, it is a great sin to not forgive under those conditions. But Jesus did not pass out wholesale forgiveness to those who didn't want or care for it, but forgave those who repented.

I think Hank Hanegraaf from the Bible Answer Book put it best:

"We are expected to manifest the kind of love that is WILLING to forgive those who wrong us, though. Furthermore, forgiveness is by definition a two-way street leading to the restoration of fellowship. It requires someone who is willing to forgive and someone who is wanting to be forgiven. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentent; otherwise there can be no restoration of fellowship [i.e. forgiveness]

Finally, we must never suppose that our standard of forgiveness is higher than God's standard. He objectively offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship. His forgiveness is not subjectively realized, however, until we repent."

Now that is an entirely different matter from releasing anger and hatred and I don't think anyone would argue that should be done regardless of forgiveness.

Forgive as you wish to be forgiven.

As you have been forgiven.

Has God shown you mercy?

Show her the same mercy and understanding.

We love because he first loved us, yes?

While we were yet sinners he died for us...

ML,

So if I understand you correctly, I should only extend forgiveness if you ask for it. That I shouldn't make the first move towards forgivness unless the person who wrongs me makes the first move.

How then does anything get solved? If the hand of mercy isn't extended how does it start.

Example....

I wrong you. You are extremely hurt. If I never come to you and ask forgiveness what happens?
What do you do?

What if I don't know I hurt you?
What if I die before I ask for your forgiveness?
What do you do?
You can't stay angry forever. You cant express you anger at me. You have to give your anger, hurt and pain to God. When you do this aren't you forgiving me, not pardoning me, but you are taking my sin against you and the pain it caused you and handing it to God.

Call me thickheaded but I dont get it. I can't get my hands around conditional forgiveness. It seems to me this is one of the biggest problems on this planet now.

Arabs and Jews in the middle east.
Prodestants and catholics in Ireland.
Nobody wants to make the first move. Society considers it weak to extend the hand of forgiveness. It is not a sign of weakness to say I forgive without someone asking for it.

This is the train of thought I see with waiting for an "I am sorry".....

If I am the wronged party, why should I be the one who makes the first move? If I do nothing then the crack widens, a chasm opens and relationships disappear. Fathers not talking to sons and daughters, both sides being too stubborn to "give in" as they see it. You probably know christian families like this. There was such a distance between people that no one took a chance, no one risked rejection and no one was healed.

Melody, we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I forgave my wife long before she came back, not to make me feel better but to get closer to God. It was hard, it seemed unfair but that was what I was supposed to do. That alone, the forgiveness I showed her, made it possible for me to show love to her regardless of what she did to me in the past. Extending God's love for her through me made such a huge difference.

Did this make me feel better, most definately. A huge weight was lifted from me. It was quite the unpopular decision according to most of my friends. I was told I was stupid, that she hadn't even said she was sorry. It made it so difficult but with God's help I did it. I wasn't being a martyr or being holier-than-thou, I just forgave her. By me doing that, it touched her and a lot of others.

If your enemy is cold give him shelter, if he is hungry give him food. We are called to extend forgiveness, grace and mercy. Without forgiveness in my heart I cannot love as I am supposed to.

God Bless

Doug