Doug, if you read the passage above from Bible expert Hank Hanegraaf, I think he explained it best. We must be WILLING to forgive those who want it. But the point of forgiveness is to RESTORE the relationship. If the other person does not want or care about your forgiveness, it achieves nothing of the sort. You can't FORCE your forgiveness on an unwilling person. But you must be WILLING.

Nor does it preclude showing love or mercy for someone. I can show love to someone who neither wants or cares about my "forgiveness." There is nothing stopping me.

So for what purpose would it be offered to someone who doesn't want it? There can only be one answer since it does nothing to restore our relationship. And that one answer is that we do it ONLY to make ourselves "feel good." That is a selfish misuse of the gift of forgiveness.

God does not force his forgiveness on people who neither want or care for it and neither should we. That achieves nothing. The purpose of forgiveness is to restore a relationship, not to make someone feel holy and sanctimonious.

And that is why I advocate God's standard. If that standard is good enough for God, it should be good enough for us. And like Hank pointed out, we should never suppose that we have higher standards than God.

d_rose - good post.

From day one I reasoned out in my mind the A to the point of forgiving. In fact, I wasn't upset so much over the A, as I was with my WH giving up on the marriage. He gave up long before the A, I could see that in retrospect.

I never really used the words forgiveness to him. But I did say I was disappointed over his giving up on us and this might sound odd, but I never found the A to be an unforgivable act and so it wasn't even in question.

I agree with you that forgiveness to many of us is a means to be closer to God. As one of Max Lucado's book titles says, "Its Not about Me".
Forgiveness is the work of the Lord, we are merely the vessels.

My WH doesn't understand. I haven't said it, but he knows that I have forgiven him. We seem to be more on his not understanding how I can still love him. His immediate response to my telling him I love him, is why?

Today when I told him, You know I still love you, his comment was I don't know why, but I'm glad.

The additional phrase of I'm glad, meant the world to me. He will eventually be able to accept the love but for now he can not.

This ability to forgive or to provide a person a type of unconditional love might very well set me up for more pain. But it is the risk that I chose to take. I would rather give this marriage every oz of my being then to take the easy route of quitting.
I deserve a marriage in which I can love someone that much. Yes, I deserve it, that might sound selfish. But the more you give the more you get back in return.
The question . . . is my WH able to accept this type of love. He might not. But if not, I can live with myself. And if so? well, I haven't a doubt that the Lord will bless us ten-fold.
And I believe that our lives touch other lives and the gift of love and forgiveness only amplifies.

My WH took something very precious from me and dismissed its value. I am reciprocating with giving him MORE precious love from me and basically letting it stare him in the face with it. He can try to fight it, but I think eventually I will wear him down.

So yes Graycloud - I believe forgiveness is in your heart and it is of your choosing. It doesn't even have to be verbally shared. I think it can be very medicinal for one to do so.

Sometimes I almost feel somewhat conniving as I haven't a doubt that the Lord has a plan and this is what he wants me to do. My WH doesn't have a chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
Example....

I wrong you. You are extremely hurt. If I never come to you and ask forgiveness what happens?
What do you do?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing. I would move on and forget it. What would there be to do? It sure wouldn't help to hand you a bicycle tire when you drive a Jeep. [that is what giving unwanted "forgiveness" is]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if I don't know I hurt you?
What if I die before I ask for your forgiveness?
What do you do?
You can't stay angry forever. You cant express you anger at me. You have to give your anger, hurt and pain to God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But how does handing an unwanted gesture to someone assuage that anger? It takes 2 people to restore a relationship, one who is willing to forgive and one who is wanting to be forgiven. The restoration doesn't take place unless both parties are interested. Again, you can't force your forgiveness on an unwilling party, it doesn't restore anything.

And why would I stay angry at all? I can release my anger without forgiving you, it is not contingent upon forgiveness. Handing you something you don't WANT or need doesn't release my anger at all.

If you have wronged me and don't know, the onus would be on me to tell you, I guess. Every situation will be different, that doesn't change the principle.

"We are expected to manifest the kind of love that is WILLING to forgive those who wrong us, though. Furthermore, forgiveness is by definition a two-way street leading to the restoration of fellowship. It requires someone who is willing to forgive and someone who is wanting to be forgiven. If you are to forgive me, I must be repentent; otherwise there can be no restoration of fellowship [i.e. forgiveness]

I read this but my confusion with this is:

I can't forgive someone for something unless they ask for it?????

I agree with being willing to forgive, to prepare my heart for forgiveness but what if you don't come knocking? How long do I wait for you to come to me to forgive you.

I am the one who was wronged, I feel the pain, the hurt or betrayal. Where does this stuff go?

In the new testament the most common Greek word for forgiveness, means, literally to release, to hurl away, to free yourself. By forgiving you, that is what I do. I free myself from the pain, hurt and anger you caused me and release you from the "debt." It doesn't mean that you have reconciled within you what has happened but it does "whipe the slate clean" so to speak with me.

Isn't this mine to give?


So for what purpose would it be offered to someone who doesn't want it? There can only be one answer since it does nothing to restore our relationship. And that one answer is that we do it ONLY to make ourselves "feel good." That is a selfish misuse of the gift of forgiveness.

For the purpose that we are called to do to forgive others as we have been forgiven.


To feel good???? You gotta be kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I naively ask if you have been through the process of forgiving someone. It sucks, forgiving my wife was one of the hardest things I think I will ever do. I struggled for months with it. I didn't do it because it made me feel good (though, through it all, that ended up a nice by-product),I did it because that is what I felt God was having me to do.

God does not force his forgiveness on people who neither want or care for it and neither should we. That achieves nothing. The purpose of forgiveness is to restore a relationship, not to make someone feel holy and sanctimonious.

I don't belive my standards are higher than God's. Before I came to Christ had He not already forgiven me? I hadn't accepted His forgiveness yet, which I must do, but that did not keep him form offering it too me before I knew what it was.

Melody, I am enjoying this thread. One of the best debates I have had in a long time. My wife is TDY so my conversations at night have been limited to discussing Hillary Duff, Spongebob and how did mommy get pregnant with my 7 year old daughter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Til tomorrow,

God Bless,

Doug

whitefeather,

Thanks, I haven't read that Lucado book yet but it is on my list. Go to www.maxlucado.com and subscribe to upwords. Pretty good stuff

melody,

we crossed posted I guess....

But how does handing an unwanted gesture to someone assuage that anger? It takes 2 people to restore a relationship, one who is willing to forgive and one who is wanting to be forgiven. The restoration doesn't take place unless both parties are interested. Again, you can't force your forgiveness on an unwilling party, it doesn't restore anything.

This is the cool part, I don't hand it to you, it is there already, whether you ask for it or not. You can ignore it, throw it back at me or accept it, but it is still there. This is when I can forget it. I have forgiven you in my heart there is nothing else I can do.

Restoration is a whole different animal. Then it definately takes two willing individuals, both of which asking for and receiving forgiveness (if need be) from each other. You knowing I forgive you is paramount and me knowing you accept it is too.

o.k.....even if you have posted again when I add this reply I am going to bed.

Good night and God Bless

Doug

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

Okay, I'll be the hardnose. I outlined an obvious case (child-beater) earlier -- but the point is, forgiveness or no forgiveness, there are some relationships I do not WANT to restore. No hard feelings -- but au revoir.

If he plays his cards right, my WH is one of them. But there are others. Whether they are sorry or not is immaterial -- they did enough damage in my life so that I am happy to see the back of them.

Where does that fit into your schema, ML et al?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't forgive someone for something unless they ask for it?????

I agree with being willing to forgive, to prepare my heart for forgiveness but what if you don't come knocking? How long do I wait for you to come to me to forgive you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, if I don't come knocking then that means I don't want or need your forgiveness. You can't really give me something I don't want or need. It doesn't help me at all and it doesn't restore our relationship if I am not willing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the new testament the most common Greek word for forgiveness, means, literally to release, to hurl away, to free yourself. By forgiving you, that is what I do. I free myself from the pain, hurt and anger you caused me and release you from the "debt." It doesn't mean that you have reconciled within you what has happened but it does "whipe the slate clean" so to speak with me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But how so? How does offering an unwanted gift to someone release your anger, though? It doesn't restore our relationship in any way. It wipes nothing clean. The release of your anger is not contingent upon this step. You can release your anger without forgiveness and you can also hold ONTO your anger even if you do forgive the other party. See, what I mean? Forgiveness is not interdependent with the release of anger. You can forgive your neighbor, at his request, and still be angry as hell at him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
For the purpose that we are called to do to forgive others as we have been forgiven.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! As we have been forgiven. Those are very important words. And how were we forgiven? We were forgiven by God when we repented. And that is exactly the standard he expects from us. He doesn't force his forgiveness on those who don't want it or who are not repenent. Like Jesus said in the gospels, "if your brother repents, forgive him."

But it calls for us to forgive the REPENTENT, not to give to someone who doesn't want it. It has to have a PURPOSE other than a "feeling" that we are following some rule in a book. See what I mean? And it's purpose, followed properly, is to restore our relationship, just as our desire for forgiveness and repentence faciliates our relationship with God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I naively ask if you have been through the process of forgiving someone. It sucks, forgiving my wife was one of the hardest things I think I will ever do. I struggled for months with it. I didn't do it because it made me feel good (though, through it all, that ended up a nice by-product),I did it because that is what I felt God was having me to do.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that God wants us to release our anger. It cuts us off from Him and diminishes our soul.

Other than that you are talking to a graduate of the school of hard knocks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A chronic alcoholic who used to be OBSESSED with my grudges. [and a BS 2X over] I have been sober now for 19 years, but please believe me when I say that I came upon forgiveness the long, hard way and have become a very forgiving, merciful person. I don't hold grudges and I thank God for that.

And its because of my destructive past that I have come to see the beauty in God's system of forgiveness. He loves and forgives us, but His standard is repentence and that standard is such a wonderful benefit to me. Becuase without repentence our relationship with God is cut off because sin is in the way. That motivates me to repent and brings me closer to God.

Thanks for the great chat, Doug. I have really enjoyed this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hope ya found it more interesting than SpongeBob! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by A.M.Martin:
<strong> Okay, I'll be the hardnose. I outlined an obvious case (child-beater) earlier -- but the point is, forgiveness or no forgiveness, there are some relationships I do not WANT to restore. No hard feelings -- but au revoir.

If he plays his cards right, my WH is one of them. But there are others. Whether they are sorry or not is immaterial -- they did enough damage in my life so that I am happy to see the back of them.

Where does that fit into your schema, ML et al? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AM, you don't have to reconcile with anyone, however, according to biblical standards you have to forgive those who desire your forgiveness and who are repentent. God is real clear about this. What you withhold others will be withheld YOU.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
<strong>

This is the cool part, I don't hand it to you, it is there already, whether you ask for it or not. You can ignore it, throw it back at me or accept it, but it is still there. This is when I can forget it. I have forgiven you in my heart there is nothing else I can do.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you are doing the same thing I am doing except you are calling it something different. I am always WILLING to forgive and I have RELEASED my anger against you. However, I don't offer forgiveness to someone who isnt interested in it.

Doug, I really will shut up after this one and head to bed, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [I promise!!] but I wanted to post something I just thought about. And it is about the absolute importance of repentence in forgiveness and restoration.

You know how sin cuts us off from God? Well, take that example and apply it to the unrepentent WS's we see on this forum.

Just compare our relationships here with an unrepentent WS and a repentent WS.

Look at how chaotic and hostile our relations are with the unrepentent WS on this board. That is because their sin gets in the way. It effects everything!

On the other hand, look at how easy it is to get along with the ones who are truly repentent. We love and embrace them! That sin is all but removed and we EMBRACE them. We don't even think about it anymore! However, there is very little embracing of the unrepentent because that SIN is always there in the way.

And it is the same way in all of our relationships. Our relationship with God and our relationship with our friends and family. Repentence is just so important, otherwise its lack just gets in the way of normal relations. And I think thats why God made it such an important part of forgiveness, because it really is almost essential to true forgiveness.

ok, I am done babbling and am off to bed! Take care! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whitefeather:
<strong> d_rose - good post.

My WH took something very precious from me and dismissed its value. I am reciprocating with giving him MORE precious love from me and basically letting it stare him in the face with it. He can try to fight it, but I think eventually I will wear him down.

So yes Graycloud - I believe forgiveness is in your heart and it is of your choosing. It doesn't even have to be verbally shared. I think it can be very medicinal for one to do so.

Sometimes I almost feel somewhat conniving as I haven't a doubt that the Lord has a plan and this is what he wants me to do. My WH doesn't have a chance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">D- good post! I agree completely!!! And your last statement.... hhmmmmmmm FWS and I just talked about that the other night... I am so trusting and confident that what I'm doing is all under God's plan and He will provide... and all FWS can say is "how do you know?".... I feel bad for him... he is/ was such a wonderful strong christian man... and the devil has such an awful grip on him still- but soon he'll see... prayfully he'll see!

Thanks to everybody for this discussion. I was raised in a Christian family but I don't practice a religion. The lack of a consistent code of belief is something I struggle with always. But it is possible, and maybe useful, to look at this question without trying to interpret the Bible.

If I tell myself, I'm going to forgive my wife, and this thing I tell myself helps me to be humble, kind, compassionate, and generous, then certainly I don't think I'm abusing the power of forgiveness for selfish reasons. It makes me feel good, but that doesn't mean feeling good is the goal. It's just gravy.

Anyway, I don't mean to reject those biblical things you've all been discussing. By no means. There is guidance there regardless of what one believes.

GC

Graycloud, I’m jumping in late now and haven’t read this whole thread, but here is also a very good thread on the topic of forgiveness. I’m sure you will find it very insightful and helpful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by d_rose:
<strong>

This is the cool part, I don't hand it to you, it is there already, whether you ask for it or not. You can ignore it, throw it back at me or accept it, but it is still there. This is when I can forget it. I have forgiven you in my heart there is nothing else I can do.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you are doing the same thing I am doing except you are calling it something different. I am always WILLING to forgive and I have RELEASED my anger against you. However, I don't offer forgiveness to someone who isnt interested in it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We typed a lot of words just to end up in an agreement...toe-may-toe, ta-ma-toe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We typed a lot of words just to end up in an agreement...toe-may-toe, ta-ma-toe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VEry true, but I enjoyed all that typing immensely! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know how sin cuts us off from God? Well, take that example and apply it to the unrepentent WS's we see on this forum.

agreeed

Look at how chaotic and hostile our relations are with the unrepentent WS on this board. That is because their sin gets in the way. It effects everything!

On the other hand, look at how easy it is to get along with the ones who are truly repentent. We love and embrace them! That sin is all but removed and we EMBRACE them. We don't even think about it anymore! However, there is very little embracing of the unrepentent because that SIN is always there in the way.

I'll agree that it is much easier to get along with someone when they are repentent and the embracing is usually much more fun too. With the unrepentent one it is much more difficult. I struggled a long time with my wife's OM. I would be like.."o.k. I have forgiven him", then I would run into him and my pulse and BP would go through the roof. We had several conversations during the course of his A with my wife and most were pretty subdued. Over time I got to a point where I felt I had forgiven him. I discussed with my pastor the topic of forgiveness. The OM had been on my heart for a while and honestly I was like "God, what do I do?" My wife and I both still worked with OM, had the same friends so this made for a pretty tense work environment when one of us ran into him. I came to the conclusion that I needed to tell him that I had forgiven him for what had happened. It hurt, but I was going to move past that. I really struggled with this, waffled back and forth on telling or not. We usually never contacted each other but on day he asked me a question (work related) and in the same conversation aske me how I was doing. I said pretty good and here is why (I figured that this was as good as time as any.)

Well...I told him and he got pissed. Said "Why did I ever get messed up in this SH*T" and walked away. Haven't heard from him since, been over a year, though he did tell my wife to tell me he was sorry. I feel better because I forgave him, the hold that he had over me was gone. I don't think about him any more, except every so often when I see a black maxima : ). I wasn't trying to fix a relationship because I don't want a relationship with him. Burying the hatchet so to speak. Forgave him for what he did but like A.M. said...won't let the fox in the henhouse again.

I offered forgiveness and he rejected it, that is fine for me. My heart is right with God and towards the OM. I wish him well, I pray for him and his fiance' like I would any of my friends. Maybe he has asked forgiveness from God for his sins, I hope so.

He doesn't need my forgiveness to move forward but I honestly think I had to forgive so I could.

Oh....good morning BTW

gc

If I tell myself, I'm going to forgive my wife, and this thing I tell myself helps me to be humble, kind, compassionate, and generous, then certainly I don't think I'm abusing the power of forgiveness for selfish reasons. It makes me feel good, but that doesn't mean feeling good is the goal. It's just gravy.

you just said what I wanted to, in a whole lot less words. Great words GC.

God Bless

Doug