</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The lesson I learned from Jesus' teachings on judgments, when he talked about removing the plank from your own eye before you remove the speck out of someone else's, was that how can we tell someone else, how can we point out someone else's sins when ours are no better?

A speck and a plank are two different things. He didn't say remove your own speck, meaning that you're doing the same exact thing he is so you need to worry about yourself first before you tell him about his, he said remove your plank. Being hypocritical is when you tell someone else not to do something yet you do it yourself. In that case, I understand ML's point, but I think what Jesus was getting at was that we're all guilty of SOMETHING, therefore, what right do we have to point out someone else's flaws, sins, whatever, when we're no better ourselves. Yes, our sins are DIFFERENT, but no less sinful.

The Pharisees were telling people, You can't come worship because of this..., You can't come worship because of that..., yet Jesus tried to point out to them that NO ONE is sin-free. We ALL need God as much as the next guy. So what right did THEY have to not allow people to worship JUST BECAUSE they were sinners? What he wanted the Pharisees to see was that we are ALL sinners.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MelodyLane, remember, we don’t talk about civil judgment here. (The difference between civil and moral judgment was already explained to you by Plumb Bob on other posts). MelodyLane, since WE ALL are sinners and no ones sins is greater than the other, who are we to morally judge another person? But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (Rom 14:10) There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another? (Jms 4:12).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet, civil judgement is not relevent to any discussion and never has been. Judgement is judgement. The courts are certainly not the arbiters of truth nor can you ever hope to substantiate such a ludicrous view.[PlumbBob was not able to]

I understand where Standing Together is coming from, however it doesn't work for this reason. She is suggesting that Jesus is saying that no man can judge unless he is perfect.

However, Jesus knew that NO MAN was perfect. So in that case, we could expect Jesus to command that no man EVER judge, right? We can clearly see that he doesn't do that.

Instead he gives INSTRUCTIONS on how to judge. He tells us not to be a hypocrite in that verse. he never says "don't judge," does he? If his standard was as ST desribed, then we would expect him to tell us NOT to judge, period. But, he never says that at all.

And what is a hypocrite? Is it a non-perfect person who renders judgement on ANYTHING? Of course its not. By that standard EVERYONE is a hypocrite because no one is perfect. That would mean that I am a "hypocrite" for saying that Ted Bundy is a muderer. Now isn't that silly? A hypocrite is a person who does not believe what they profess and is practicing the VERY TRAIT they are advocating against. THAT is the proper definition of hypocrisy and always has been.

So, if judging were a sin, it makes no sense that he would tell us HOW to do it. He doesn't tell us HOW to murder or lie, does he?

Rather, he gives us instructions on the RIGHT WAY to judge, ie: judge righteously and judge without hypocrisy.

<small>[ June 21, 2004, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Here is the definition of hypocrisy:

hy·poc·ri·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.

MelodyLane,

Yesterday I’ve missed this thread and didn’t notice you have created a new topic on this issue. I can’t believe I’m posting on this topic with you again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Anyways, thanks for the time you’ve taken to explain your viewpoint to me. I understand what you’re trying to say and some of the things you’ve said hold some truth, but I still don’t agree with your overall viewpoint. In my opinion there IS a difference between civil and moral judgment and of course the two must be separated. How can you say civil and moral judgment is the same thing? Civil judgment is necessary in society, but Jesus was against MORAL judgment where someone judge the worth of a person in God’s eyes… Standing Together’s viewpoint makes perfect sense to me. As I’ve said yesterday, we all are entitled to our own opinions, viewpoints and interpretations. I respect your opinion, and the things you and I don’t agree on, we can simply agree to disagree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MelodyLane, yesterday you’ve said on my thread that I’ve talked about other posters and you and my issues with them… You've even accused me of being snarky and hostile… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> MelodyLane, please let me bring under your attention that all I’ve ever said about my post to you on Eric’s thread was the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I’ve just send a post regarding ‘judging people’ on another thread and I would like to hear your personal opinion and if it make sense to you, since the other poster think my viewpoint is irrational. Here is the post I’ve send regarding this topic:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you see that I didn’t discuss you as a person and didn’t even mention your name? All I’ve said was: ”the other poster think my viewpoint is irrational” and I was just seeking Plumb’s Bob opinion on my viewpoint. I was discussing the viewpoint I've posted to you on Eric's thread, I was not discussing you or anyone else. I was just giving a reference and a fact that "another poster think my viewpoint is irrational". That’s all. You've also said I’ve talk about other posters. Please tell me who was the other posters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, I’m sorry that you’ve taken the above innocent comment so personally and felt so upset about it… It wasn’t my intention at all. If I have unintentionally hurt your feelings, I sincerely apologize… I hope you will accept it. I know this is just a message board and I don’t even know you personally, but still, I don’t want you to have ‘hard’ feelings towards me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Greetings,
Suzet

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet, Unbelievable. Wasn't it enough that your thread got locked yesterday? You just can't give up, can you?

I think we already understand what your view on "judgement" is and you can't possibly substantiate it. Nowhere was Jesus "against moral judgement." That is silly and you can't back it up. But that hasn't stopped you from beating it to death, has it? I thought this subject was officially dropped when your thread was locked yesterday but there just seems to be no end with you, is there?

As far as directing your posts to me, you and I both know that who you were directing them to so its disingenious to pretend otherwise. My feelings weren't hurt, but the snarkiness of starting a one sided debate thread when you couldn't win it honestly did not go unnoticed.

Give it a rest, Suzet, this is getting whacko.

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

MelodyLane, YOU started THIS thread yesterday - not me!!! The topic reads: To Suzet, so wasn't I suppose to read and reply to a thread that was addressed to ME PERSONALLY? I think YOU are the one who's unbelievable! I didn't even know my thread was locked yesterday because I didn't plan to post to it again. I wouldn't even post something to you again if it wasn't for THIS thread I noticed this morning.

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Look at the time on the thread, Suzet. I am going to send an email to the Mod, this is just getting downright insane.

I'm living in SA Melodylane. In my country it is 13:00 pm. I'm posting during the DAY.

My point is that the thread was started YESTERDAY morning before the last explosion and [b]before[/i] the last thread was locked with the same subject. This should have been allowed to drop to the bottom.

MelodyLane, in that case you should have requested the Mod to lock THIS thread, YOU have started, as well... Maybe it will be a good idea if you ask the Mod to lock this thread too.

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

MelodyLane you are NUTS!
YOU are the one not letting this topic on judging others stop;
by starting a new thread!

I am actually shaking that you are blaming Suzet.

YOU STARTED THIS THREAD NOT SUZET!

Plus I like her way of looking at judging others better than your way.

My pastor says we are to not be tolerant of sin but we are most definitely to be tolerant of the sinner.
(And I am not feeling very tolerant of you right now!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sincerely, Julie

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

I'm glad to see others are seeing you for your true self, ML.

With almost 5000 posts, you know how to kill a thread if you want it to die. YOU didn't want it to die; you wanted an opportunity to remain in the limelight. You could have edited your thread, as you are so fond of doing, and deleted the name, as well as the text body, but you didn't...WHY, if you wanted it to die?

Then there's the question of why you even started a new thread on the SAME topic. Why didn't you just post this there...I mean, it's not like you didn't want to hijack the thread...you'd already done that.

Bob, your reply makes A LOT of sense to me.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />