Sure Pep, I'll elaborate.

What I meant by being trapped by circumstances was economic dependence. Fifty years ago, women would have been more likely to put up with poor relationship skills from their H as long as he continued to provide a stable home environment (i.e. income)

Women are far less dependent on men for economic support, so they recognize that they have more options than they once did. Fear of economic hardship is less of a driver in their decision making.

Men have struggled to come to terms with this. Fifty years ago, all we had to do was bring home the bacon. Today, we are being asked to be so much more or we're out on our ear.

As you've mentioned, they have far higher standards for what a good husband and father is today. Men are expected to change diapers and actually be involved in their kids lives (as opposed to the guy on "That 70's Show" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) We have to work much harder to meet our wive's silly little (just kidding!) EN's or we stand a greater chance that she'll end the relationship. (Then who will iron my shirts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Of course, along the way, we men are discovering that there might be something good about actually having real relationships after all...

Lest we think men have it all tough, I know many young men these days who expect the women they become involved with to be economically self sufficient. They don't want to connect with a woman who will be solely dependent on them. Too much pressure.

Fifty years ago, it was not uncommon for men to have a "woman on the side". It may even have been with the knowledge of their wives. But some wives chose to turn a blind eye because he was a "good provider". Do you think this is more or less prevalent today?

O's points assume that everyone who ends a relationship is doing it with the intention of replacing it with another without attempting to resolve the underlying issues. I don't deny that this happens. New freedoms that men and women enjoy when it comes to relationships certainly present them with more options than they've ever had. Working out the current relationship is an option. Finding a new relationship is an option. Ending the relationship without starting a new relationship is an option.

The mission here at MB is to help people gain the skills necessary to work out their present marriages. I do believe that is far preferrable to mandating that we revert to the marital dynamics of the early 20th century.

Low

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Low,

I have a few exceptions to take with your last post and I'll try to do that tomorrow but to illustrate some of what I am talking about on this thread,check out tra4bren's thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

Turtlehead,

I worry a little bit about what you are feeling and thinking. You have done such a good job with your advice, and you really have insight in to helping others.

Are you getting what you need from these threads of yours?

I think this one is a really good one - after all, before we can know if we are getting what we need, we ought to examine our needs and see if they are realistic. Needs verses wants. What is a real need, and what can we live with as we continue to work on things?

What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?

I don't mean to pry, but I would like to know where you feel you are now. Forgive me for worrying.

SS

Hello, Octobergirl

I did read tra4bren's thread. What I saw was a pitifully dysfunctional person who needs a lot of help. We are seeing a person who doesn't know how a marriage should work. Since she lacks these relationship skills, she doesn't see correcting her relationship as an option. I think this is the point of MB...to give people skills to make their relationships work.

I suppose that my primary point is that there is NOTHING wrong with having high expectations and standards. How we decide to respond when those standards aren't being met is entirely our own choice and has attendant moral consequences.

tra4bren's actions are not the result of having high expectations. She obviously doesn't have them of the men she becomes involved with or herself.

I can assure you that, after my affair, I am no longer willing to settle for a mediocre relationship. "Settling" is what created the disconnect that opened me up to the affair. No, I'm going to ACTIVELY love my wife and pursue resolution of those issues that I think we can do better with. I don't think it's fair that we cheat ourselves out of everything our marriage can be by lowering our standards and expectations.

Low

still seeking,

I so appreciate your interest!

I worry a little bit about what you are feeling and thinking. You have done such a good job with your advice, and you really have insight in to helping others.

You think so? I hope I do. Sometimes I feel a bit like a fraud, offering suggestions when I can't clean up things in my own life to my own satisfaction. I like people a lot, and have always leaned toward helping. I tutored in college, I do tech support now. I like touching people in some little way.

Are you getting what you need from these threads of yours?

Sometimes. When I don't, I think about what I posted and go back and reword it and post again, if the topic is still important to me. I have something weighing on my mind that I've been tossing around for a few days now, and will post on it soon. It's about whether or not my expectations for a M are realistic. I had a rough idea of that when I created this poll, and it seems you "heard" that. I was wondering where my M would go if it *doesn't* come to be what I hope it will be. I'm much more interested in building my M than H is. He thinks it's fine (has told me so).

I think this one is a really good one - after all, before we can know if we are getting what we need, we ought to examine our needs and see if they are realistic. Needs verses wants. What is a real need, and what can we live with as we continue to work on things?

Yes. And to make it more confusing, I think needs/wants are a grey area.

Some things are "must haves" - fidelity is one of my "must haves" for example.

Some things are on the other end of the scale - nice but certainly not necessary. For me I guess enjoying cooking might be something like this. Not even a want, really, but nice if it happens.

Then in between are a myriad of things which fit between wants and needs, and sometimes travel up and down the scale. Domestic support is typically a real need when children are young, for example, but perhaps only a want when newly married.

You said "what we can live with as we continue to work on things" - that was quite appropriate for me and where I am now in recovery. There are TONS of things I'd like to change. If I saw no progress at all I'd probably start working towards D. But when I do see progress, I think I can live with these things and keep plugging away.

What is your H willing to do? Will he talk to you about things? Does he try to meet your needs. Have the two of you filled out the surveys and learned what each others needs are?
Well, I can talk myself into being optimistic about this or pessimistic.

On the one hand, he has attended counseling with me and he attended anger management counseling and read up on anger management. His love busters dropped *considerably* for a few months but have crept back in during the last month, just a bit. I know he's made a big effort, and I hope it isn't a flash in the pan, that he strives to make this a permanent change. I am a "verbal" and "touching" person (Five Love Languages) so the LBs hit really hard. I need to let him know this.

He's also started reading Fall In Love, Stay In Love with me and now understands that it's not just a joke of mid-life that my libido is going ninety to nothing while his is practically dead. He understands that SF is a real need of mine and has offered to satisfy me when I ask, even if he's not in the mood. Sometimes he does, sometimes he pleads exhaustion or arthritis. But the ability to see SF as a real need is now there, and that's an improvement.

We read 50 or 60 pages and got to the EN questionnaire oh, 2 or 3 months ago. He's done his, I've done mine, and I bring up every weekend or every other weekend that I'd really like to go over the questions and get back into that book. I can't MAKE him want to do this. I can only tell him it's important to me and hope.

This is a big step, too. Before my EA he used to say he hated relationship talks. He still doesn't LIKE them, but now instead of saying "I hate them" he likens them to a dentist visit. Not his favorite thing to do but essential for the health of the M.

I don't think I'll go into the pessimistic view of things now, because I think I need to take the issues one at a time, decide if my expectations are real or not. Discover if each thing really is a big deal that needs to be addressed or if it's something I need to change within myself.

I don't mean to pry, but I would like to know where you feel you are now. Forgive me for worrying.

THANK YOU for worrying. It means so much.

Where I am right now is I feel I have learned SO MUCH in the last couple of years. About marriages, and especially about myself. I've learned the techniques here and I'm a zealot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I've learned some of the ways I LB and I am getting better at catching myself and avoiding LBs (H helped me with that). I can feel myself get irritated with H and then withdraw from H and I understand the dynamics behind that. I understand when and why I'm at risk for allowing someone else (male) to get too close and how to properly deal with it.

In some ways I feel like I've "outgrown" my H, and I'd like him to come up to speed. I feel we have huge potential if he would only get on board. Then I wonder if I'm trying to force him to heal the way I've found is good for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I've learned that I'm afraid to tell my H when things aren't going well, and why, and I'm working very hard on telling him anyway. This is my most difficult issue right now, because I want SO MUCH to change and I'm afraid of H's LBs. We don't have huge obstacles, we have a million tiny ones and sometimes I feel overwhelmed. Sometimes I wonder, too, if I'm making mountains out of molehills.

So I can look at our progress and all the good things H does for me and think we're okay and I'm expecting too much from my M.

Or I can look at how we handled things after his EA and how poorly that served us, and I think no! - we *have* to address all of this.

But it's all in my head right now and not out on the table where H can know about it and choose to do something (or not). I *told* you I had a hard time bringing up problems and dissatisfactions with H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I don't think just bringing it up out of the blue will serve me well, because I have tried in the past and H feels attacked. I made a list after my EA, of what I felt was missing and what could help protect our M. After his EA I, as a BS, would have *loved* to get a list like that. A blueprint of how to make my part in everything better. H, being unaware of MB principles, interpreted this as a "How Do I Hate Thee" list (his own words) and it was very painful for him.

I'm hoping to read Fall In Love, Stay In Love with H -- this will introduce him to ENs, LBs, Radical Honesty, POJA, all those things that I now feel are so essential to a marriage. We started months ago and stalled.

Then I hope to read a book on Affair Recovery with him, and address both of our EAs. We never addressed the cause of his and to be honest I don't think he wants to bother finding out why. He wants to say it's over, will never happen again, trust him. I tried that and it was a very lonely place with a huge elephant under the rug. Extremely uncomfortable and unsafe for me. I am NOT going to let it lie forever. It must be broght to light (for me to stay in this M).

I also find it curious that H hasn't asked *any* questions about my EA. It wasn't long lived, and we never exchanged "I love you" talk nor made plans for the future or any of that... when OM popped into my mind before H when I wanted to share something happy or amazing, or when I needed comforting -- I knew I was in over my head, and communication with OM ceased (though I'm ashamed to admit it was OM who suggested it first). So as As go it wasn't as "bad" as some we see here. But I'd still think H would want to know about it - how far it went, why it happened, do I miss him -- but he never asked. Odd.

There are some who would say I'm insane for not being totally happy in my M. H is intelligent, a good provider, keeps things fixed around the house, talks to me, cuddles with me, laughs with me, rubs my back. ALL of the tangibles are there.

What's missing is total honesty from H (I'll start another thread or post on that tomorrow), willingness to examine the As, an enthusiastic desire to gain M skills. There are some other issues to work through too like his LBs and the fact that he doesn't like my kids <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> -- but I think with the proper foundation we could work through those issues.

It's like we've got a fabulous surface M going, but I fear the foundation may be rotten. I'm not keen on staying in an M with a rotten foundation, no matter how rosy it is right now. How can you work through real issues with a rotten foundation? Maybe I'm being too demanding and expecting too much.

I'll get my thoughts together more and post on my expectations, and whether they're realistic, in a separate post. Am out of time at the moment.

Thank you for asking.