thanks turtlehead-
I read all that s. harley
said. it seems so raw-to
say we should have never been
trusted in the 1st place. it
is interesting to read though
that we are all wired for
infidelity if circumstances
present themselves. my A was
so typical in the beginning-
nothing I wanted to happen
-just renewing an old
friendship. from there every
thing was put in place. does
this mean my H is vulnerable
if I am not everything he
needs and wants? this is a
very interesting topic for
us WS. please continue...
to anyone with thoughts-
thanks-pal

After my then-H's first affair, it took me nearly 4 years to feel trust in him.

I stopped checking on him completely, stopped auditing financial stuff looking for evidence of continued contact, stopped obsessing and thinking about the affair all together. I felt secure and safe, and I trusted him.

Fast forward 7+ years post-D day, and he does it again. Having been through it before, I could set my watch by what he was going to do and say next, although it was still just as infinitely devistating. Maybe more so, since I felt dupped a second time. Felt as though I was in some kind of Ground Hog's Day nightmare.

The second go-around I found MB and read where Harley tells us that we should hold complete and utter trust of our spouses at bay. I wish I would have found MB the first time.

Thing is, I can't see how one can be married and not want or require trusting their spouse completely. To me that's a chasm which could block the two from becoming truly intimate and tight. A Team. I wish someone could explain it to me.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Jo,

I feel the same. How can you truly open yourself up (true intimacy) to someone if you don't trust them? I know I could not.

I would be interested in hearing how others who believe SH's views on not trusting and how they can be intimate in their marriage w/o trust.

Frags

When you are married and live with your spouse, every day requires a kind of trust, that they will come home, come home on time, still be there in the morning....

Trust can be re-earned. But, there's a reason that "worthy" is part of trustworthy. If someone is not accountable, doesn't treat their spouse well, disappears, lies, cheats that isn't being worthy of trust.

After 4 years of recovery, I trust my H...as long as he doesn't "red flag" me. If he withdraws, is inaccessible, not where he is supposed to be then I know it is a possibility that I shouldn't be trusting him.

Chasm, Jo? Maybe an earthquake fault, usually closed but open in an instant? That's a good point.

Peacenandlove, your H is vulnerable to an affair. It does seem to be an unfortunate consequence that many BSs consider affairs, sometimes it's because of the loss of self-esteem, unmet needs, kindness from an OP (after dealing with a WS ANYONE can seem better), for some, even retaliation and revenge.

Even if the "wiring" is there, the BS has the same choice to refuse to behave inappropriately that the WS originally had.

Are "we" wired to cheat? Maybe. maybe not. How can anyone really answer that? My W is pretty. But no one should even other to think that I would not look at another pretty girl who walks by; and "daydream" for a few seconds. Is that cheating? Some South Carolina Bible Thumpers would probably think so; but who can really say?

Add to that the whole idea that there are SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES out there, the dangers of having sex with a stranger or a person you really don't know too well, and on and on and on ... and the idea of climbing into bed with someone you don't completley know and trust displays very bad judgement. Given a choice, I want to spend my time with my W.

<small>[ August 18, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: whiteknight1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by whiteknight1:
Maybe I'm too close since the A ended to really give much valuable input; but as I feel right not, the idea of ever cheating on my W again sickens me to no end. I would NEVER want to hurt myself or my W or another person like this again.

How will I feel in the future? Well, our sex life sucks now, and hopefully it won't stay this way; but I can't go forever like this. I certainly will NEVER go to a prostitute, and th idea of masterbation just makes me feel so silly, so that's not an option. Sex with my W seems like the best bet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi White Knight,

My husband said the same thing regarding the OW, he cried in my arms and begged to take him back, he told me he never stopped loving me and that I was his family, not her. And most importantly, his actons matched his words.

I know you have experienced what you think is unprecedented bad behavior by the OW. But please believe me when I tell you, so did we. And my husband still betrayed me again. His "feelings" changed.

The "right now feelings" is just that, it's not 7 years from now, it's not future "feelings". So my answer is to live purposefully instead of based on what-can-be fleeting feelings.

Best,
Jo

<small>[ June 22, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

sometimes when I read things
like not trusting again-
it makes me feel so much
remorse all over again. To
think I can never be trusted
for my actions-or the possibility
of speculative actions-well-
I have spent so much energy
trying to prove myself to my H-
I think now I feel weak again.
why should he trust me-if he
could read my mind he would hate
me forever. I tell myself I am
just a woman-trying to make sense
of what happened to me & why. the
worst part-the absolute horrible
truth is that I still have OM
on my mind. today is not a good
day. I confessed this to H-is it
back to square 1? feels like it.
OM wont pick up phone- yes MBers
I broke the NC-I am weak-I cant
help it. I just wanted to talk-
OK there is my truth-so I am not
to be trusted again-
theory proven...
pal

PAL, yes it is back to square 1 in recovery, for both you and your H. Anything you did in the past to rebuild trust is gone. And can you blame him? He would be crazy to trust an untrustworthy person.

What I find amazing is that you are here complaining that your H doesn't trust you, and then you proceed to tell us how you act in a manner that deserves anything BUT trust. Trust has to be earned, and if you aren't willing to do the work, then you sure don't deserve the benefit.

Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, why not focus all that energy on your poor H, your victim, whom you have just DESTROYED AGAIN with your contact?

Did you even consider that you have broken his heart all over again?

Interesting thread.

whiteknight1 I am a South Carolina Bible Thumper. LOL. I understand the jibe. If you are curious, the essence of it is this. In old testament days, we had the good ole "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Sin was in the commit. Then comes the new testament good news. And we have the statement (my paraphrase) "If you gaze upon another, you have already committed adultery."

So if I think another woman is a hottie, I have committed adultery. C'mon. That is just silly. What it means is if I see a woman I think is a hottie and I sit there and gaze - wondering, thinking, maybe planning, rationalizing why it would be OK even if I was married, then guess what, that is where I am headed. And that would be a sin. We must guard our thoughts. We are still going to have them. You just confess 'em and move on.

===========================

On to trust. I trusted my WW after she confessed PA and she kept it up. Am I trusting? Too trusting? Don't know.

My take is this. Bible only requires us to trust in God. That intimacy with my spouse FEELS like I should trust, look where it got me.

I like the "red flag" comment. Probably how I will handle it henceforth with FWW. Trust is something earned. Trust is something that can be lost.

Think about your friends. When you first met them, did you trust them? No. They earned it by showing themselves trustworthy. Do you trust them completely? Probably not. Depends on how close of a friend they are.

Also. Here is an interesting point. Could it be said that you can always trust someone to do what is right...but your "right" or "theirs?" Kind of like the Indian proverb about the fox and the scorpion.

I am struggling with this trust mightily myself.

I am untrustworthy because
I am so honest? I did not
talk to OM-he wont talk to
me-I knew that when I called.
I am not complaining-I was
telling my heart & what is
burdening me-I know- WS arent
supposed to have feelings-we
can only feel absolute regret.
I cannot focus everything on
my H-he has plenty of my
attention & passion-I just
am trying to get thru this 1
f***ing day at a time...
pal

pal,
The honesty in telling your H your thoughts was the part you did right.

Receiving painful honesty is also a skill and one many people struggle with. It might be helpful if your H could read up on the MB section on honesty.
Because you do have feelings that are at time counter-productive to keeping the affair ended and rebuilding your marriage. Some WSs ask their BSs for help at their weak moments--for a hug, or that sometimes they'll call for no apparent reason.

When honesty has been lacking in a marriage, it can take some practice to deal with it from both sides.

When you call the OM, whether you think he'll take the call or not, is untrustworthy behavior.

Thoughts often lead to action. In fact the Bible says "As a man thinketh, so is he."

When you dwell on the OM, you want to call...you plan how/when to call...you carry out those plans if you don't intentionally interupt the process by halting your thoughts, intentions, actions.

That too is going to take some re-directional effort on your part for a time. Can your H take calls at work? If so, call him instead or write your H an email.

thanks lorlor- I guess
I have been strong for
so many weeks-my weaknesses
just have gotten the best
of me. there are times I
wish I could keep my mouth
silent-why do I tell H all
the things that hurt him?
if I dont he knows-he can
tell I am withdrawn &
preoccupied. I read all this
pain from everyone here
and it makes me want to cry
for eric, 1family man,ncwalker
& me, my H, all the others
that are hurting so deeply
here-my d-day was 5-6-04,
I know it is too soon to
feel any better-
pal

Hi PAL,

I'm a BS and I trust my W... it's taken a long time and lots of hard work from BOTH of us...

Now if my wonderful W started acting in an untrustworthy manner, then I would start losing my trust in her... For me, I trust her because she hasn't given me any reason to NOT trust her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there are times I wish I could keep my mouth silent-why do I tell H all the things that hurt him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's because you're wanting to earn his trust... I know it hurts to hear a WS tell a BS that they are still having feelings for the OP, but this is the first step...

Keep telling your H when you have feelings for the OM and ask him to help you... Hopefully, he is willing to rebuild the M, and even though it hurts to hear that you still have feelings for the OM, he will respect you for telling him.

But YOU must stop all contact... with the OM. When you feel the need to call/e-mail/think about the OM, you need to tell your H and then DO NOT act upon your thoughts/feelings... If you act upon your thoughts/feelings, then you are acting in an untrustworthy way... and like the others have said, you'll be back to square one...

Again, to answer your question, Yes. A BS can trust their WS again... but it takes a lot of hard work from BOTH of you...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

thanks RIF90-
I know I am not doing
all the right things.
my withdrawal is still
strong some days. I hate
that I am weak-and at
those moments call OM-
it is stupid & I know it
is wrong-but I tell myself
I just want to talk-
talking is OK. NONONONO!
he no longer cares for me-
why cant I understand this?
I think I want to convince
him to be my friend-but he
does not want to be my friend-
and maybe he never did. my
faults are many-I am flawed-
I am no longer a sacred
woman-this hurts my H
greatly-Im trying-but damnit
some days it really sucks...
pal

Pal,
It's good that he doesn't want to be your friend, because in MB, your friends are people you haven't had sex with, (spouse the exception).

All opposite sex friendships are shared with your spouse.

No secrets with the opposite sex that you don't/can't tell your H about.

So, that's a thought you can start with "OM & I can never be friends." You burned that bridge.

Pal, you can't change what you've done, but you can go on with your life making choices that don't hurt so much.

I don't know what you mean about being a sacred woman. Vestal virgin? Faithful wife?

Nothing can stop you from living the rest of your life with honor and integrity, except you yourself.

I'm not just a FBS, our bad times lasted 2+ years. During the last months of that, I served divorce papers and I dated a guy who had come to mean a great deal to me, and becoming a wayward spouse myself.

But, when my H & I decided to try to reconcile. That OM had to go out of my life...and he definitely had been a good friend and more. But, he had no place in my married life. The same for my H's FOW, he still works with her at times, but she's bitter...and he knows I know my way to the divorce lawyer if he ever gets weak.

So, I do have an idea of how hard this time is for you, from both sides...and from a slightly worsened situation. It's horrible being both betrayed and a betrayer and having all the painful issues of both.

But, giving my H another chance, a reconciliation from our 7th separation, the longest at 5 months, was the right thing to do. 4 years later I have no regrets, we have a loving marriage and we've healed.

I'm trustworthy, he's trustworthy...neither of us will likely blindly trust the other, but I know it keeps me from making unwise choices. And, my H is serving at least a year in Afghanistan, so...the opportunity to be stupid is all around me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I can look behind me and know that as hard as it was, the years of recovery were worth it. 2 years out of 21 isn't much of the whole of our marriage.

Just don't call the OM.

thanks Lor-
I guess by sacred I meant
I am a woman who had only
been with 1 man-my H-for
26 yrs-then OM- I was weak
and it happened in the short
span of couple weeks-not an
ongoing PA. I was curious-
that much I admitted to H,
and thought I loved OM & he
loved me-thats why PA. I was
deep into my addiction-I
had it all justified-nice
little secret no one would
ever know-my guilt & shame
is weighing too much-I have
carried this baggage for too
long...pal

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

Still, you can't change what has happened. I'm being boring <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but all you can do is go on with honor and integrity from this point on.

Not exactly sure of your context, but, I believe a misused sacred vessel may be re-dedicated.

A sacred vessel that wishes to return to the sacred wouldn't call the OM now that there is remorse and a desire to correct the wrong...right?

PAL, why don't you join the other ladies on Runawaypot's thread. There are women there going through just what you're going through. And there's none of that TOW crap either. They are genuinely trying to recover their marriages.

Do you know what stopped me contacting OM. It was one way I had of regaining my pride and integrity. Every time I didn't contact him when I wanted to I just felt better and better about myself. And I knew if I hurt my H again I couldn't live with myself.

Jenny