"If"...big "if"....HUGH "if" I decide it's time for Plan B again, give me your thoughts on this. It does NOT fit the standard Plan B letter. And I know it's long, but I'm a wordy sort of person. It does fit on a single page of paper:
-------------------------------------------------

It’s been nine months now since I first suspected things were up with you and her. It’s been eight since you started drinking again. I have waited and watched and nothing appears to have changed much.

I want what is best for you but also what is best for me and for our kids. I do believe in marriage, but I want a healthy one where love and respect and consideration for each other is practiced. Without some important changes, that is not and will not be the case for us.

While I do enjoy being able to talk to you and know you’re okay and be “friends”, I don’t think it’s helping you reach any decisions. It’s just prolonging our state of limbo. And as the months have passed, my love and respect for you has been seriously affected.

So, again I’m going to ask that we not see each other and that we keep any conversations strictly about kids or finances and that, preferably, they be done via text messages. This way, you will have a chance to be away from me and maybe it will make your decisions more clear.

Please don’t think I’m trying to keep you from your kids. I believe you do need to spend more time with them. You’re their father and always will be. You can always call to talk to them and it would be great if you could set up times to have them come to your place for dinner or to watch a DVD or something with you.

In answer to the question you asked me while in Florida, yes there is hope. But I am growing weary and won’t hold out forever for you to come around and I won’t get back together without seeing proof of change.

If you completely end contact with her for good and put protections in place to keep it from ever happening again, you quit drinking and drugs permanently and join a program whether AA or another so that you build a support system to deal with life’s stresses without self-medicating, we agree to get marriage counseling to learn how to have a healthy relationship and what each other’s needs are, and you are willing to work with me to rebuild trust (answer your cell phone, come home on time, be accountable for your whereabouts, share access to your email with me, put our time before time with your friends), I am willing to discuss getting back together as husband and wife.

I know this may sound harsh to you, but I assure you, in talking with pastors, counselors, and friends who have satisfying marriages, these are not abnormal expectations in a healthy relationship. I am aware that there were needs of yours that I was not meeting that helped get us where we are and am aware that these would need to be taken into consideration as well.

I love you. You’ve been a part of my life for 23 years. No matter what the future holds for us, I wish for you to find peace with the Lord and contentment with your life.

LL

LL

From the MB perspective, I have no idea whether your letter is good or not, but I like it. It is very loving, very loving.

You need to join AL-Anon and try to get your teens to Alateen. This is a family problem and you all need help/support and to understand what it is.

You will find more love and support there than you can imagine. You will learn how you contributed (this is the part my mother could never understand) and how you can help. As a Christian you will love it, I know you will.

You need to do this and I can't stress it enough. You are learning all about affairs and marriage here, you need AL-Anon also.

Go to google.com and type in ALANON to get info and to start.

I'm so happy that you are atleast considering a true plan B.

One more thing -

In your letter tell your H that you will be joining AL-Anon (and possibly the kids) so he knows that he will not be walking this extremely difficult journey alone. He needs to know that he will be supported and joined by his family in this, even if it will be from a distance at first.

If you do the plan B, you will need the additional support from Al-anon to stay strong. And if you don't do plan B, you will be making a huge step in your own recovery and in his as well.

Remember the change starts with you.

I like it too!!!

A couple things I would change...I would leave out this line "I don’t think it’s helping you reach any decisions." It just sounds like you are moving into Plan B to manipulate him. And I would add more after the line "my love and respect for you has been seriously affected." I would explain how your love and respect has been affected.

After sending it, then comes the hard part. Be prepared for him to actually go dark for a day or two...and you thinking...gee, maybe he doesn't want to come back. You will find ANY excuse to text him. I can see you writing "The dog is sick I'm taking him/her to the vet." Really, really, really, leave it alone...don't text. Limit yourself to ONE a week unless he sends something that NEEDS a reply. It is time for LL to deal with all the household stuff...he doesn't get to make the decisions or be a part of your life anymore.

You may have to go to EXTREMES to not get sucked back into contact...get another phone, don't give him the number. Use your old phone only for text messaging and leave it at home...check it once a day. Definitely, Definitely, Definitely check caller ID.

And STAY BUSY!!!!!

--------------------------------------------

On to DD. I haven't mentioned this before but I counsel teens. I agree wholeheartedly with IP. You need to go to some lengths to save your DD. It's time to come up with some drastic consequences to her actions...police, facilities, etc. Talk with her about them. What will happen if she does these things again, then follow through. CALL CPS! Make an anonymous call to get some information. Ask questions, get resources. They may have some brilliant ideas. I remember hearing that your Niece did not have a good experience with the State, basically they lost her? Talk with the state about your fears. You will probably need to hand her over. She is putting herself in harm's way every night she goes out, and no matter how bad you think things are where she's at...they are probably worse. I don't mean to scare you, but your DD sounds like she's on a very fast road. Get her in a facility. Please don't blame your H, you are the parent now, and your DD is to blame for most of her behavior.

LL, I liked the letter. I would change the decision part, as SHMI suggested. That part could be taken by a WS who is foggy as manipulation. I know what you mean, though.

WAY better than your first few Plan B letters.

And I know you went to at least 1 or 2 Al-anon meetings over there in corn country. Did you ever stick with it? Sorry, but your other thread is TOO huge for me to go check that out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've got my popcorn out. This is very exciting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

SS

LL, it is a very very good letter. It fits your situation and you are not demanding. It is loving. We will hop into the Plan B wagon together soon.

ll,

while i realize this is marriage builders, i would have to say that your marriage is not that important right now. at the moment, your primary concern ought not to be your husband, he is an adult making adult decisions and having to live with the adult consequences.

but right now, you're losing your child. i truly think that SHE should be your number one priority, or she may follow your husband down the path of self destruction. she is in trouble, serious trouble, and i don't see how you can afford emotionally to try to divide your attention between your husband's problems and your daughters!

it sounds to me like she needs all of your focus right now. have you called a crisis center yet? they can recommend counselors, some on sliding scales. they can also recommend in patient that will work with you if needed. how about boot camp for teens? i don't know how much it would cost, maybe they have payment plans though.

right now your daughter is slipping away from you. i realize you may think your husband is too, but you only have so much energy that you can use to try to save them. i'd suggest your focus be on the one you personally have a chance of helping. you can't force your husband to take your help, but maybe if you concentrate on your daughter you can keep her from slipping away from you too.

i'm more worried about your daughter right now then the state of your marriage. and i think it's reprehensible how your husband is sabotaging your efforts so he doesn't feel like the bad guy!

i'm sorry...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Lordslady -

Glad to see you hanging in here. Yes, alcoholism is a family disease, and it makes the whole family sick. I have watched my sis-in-law deal with it for 24 years, and she will not take anyone's advice to help herself.

But I stick with her, because I know she is sick, and has been beat down by her husband's drinking and behavior. I love her very much, and will continue to be a friend to her.

I hope you will stay here. And do know that you belong here, you are one of us. Many, many, do not stick to the program, but so what? We are all changing and doing the best we can. And hopefully, in the future, we will do even better.

Thanks for the good reviews of the letter. I think it was much easier writing something from my heart than trying like I did before to sort of follow the format in SAA. I will make the changes suggested and then we'll see what happens from there.

As for the Al-Anon suggestion, yes I was attending a Sunday evening Al-Anon meeting. I even bought a few books which I still read. I just haven't attended since sometime in May because I'm actually staying TOO busy, especially on weekends now that it's warm out and I can work outside in the yard. I get busy and forget that I need to leave at 6:45pm to go to the meeting. They were helpful and I do plan on picking it back up again but right now am enjoying the being outside more than sitting in a meeting.

About WH and if I do a Plan B, staying dark: I know everyone is thinking that I'm going to get worried that he's not going to come back. See, that's the problem. I'm past thinking I'll die if we don't end up together. I really am not sure I want him back. I want him in my life in some capacity, but am not sure I would miss not being M to him. I go back and forth on this.

Other than worrying about him and if he's okay because I will always love him, it's not like I am dying to talk to him all the time either. I have gone several days at a time not talking to him over the last month or two and had no problems with it.

He spent the night at my place last night--on the sofa--because all his clothes are still there from the week he spent while I was gone, and he can't haul them on the motorcycle. He again said he was on his way and didn't arrive until later, although I know he was with a coworker at the shop. This morning, he was very anxious and came out of the shower crying. It is easier to not see him at all than to see him breaking down and not be able to do anything about it, because it's him who needs to make the changes.

And finally, my daughter....

Actually, she really IS my primary focus . She's on my mind constantly. I am just so out of ideas with her. I will try and make an anonymous call to our Dept. of Human Services to see if they have ideas, but even the police didn't yesterday when I spoke to them, except to ask if she'd ever been placed in a facility before.

I truly can't afford to pay privately to put her in a facility. I fall into that middle-income category where we qualify for no aid but it takes all we make to pay our monthly bills. And I have a son going to college at U of I this fall whom I need to help because otherwise he doesn't have enough aid and loans to do it, even with a part-time job. He's busted his butt through school. He deserves to be able to do this.

I am very concerned about turning over my parental rights to the state, even temporarily, and for the most part because of what happened with my niece, who is my DD's age. They put her in several different facilities, pumped her up on drugs which I think just made her worse (and blew her up like a balloon). If I turned over my DD and then the state did that, there would be nothing I could do about it.

But I agree, she's not safe at home either. I feel like a complete failure as a parent most of the time because she is running wild and I can't stop her. My mother constantly says "You have to MAKE her do this or that." But I can't. It's not that easy. You can't just "make" somone who is 5'7" and weighs as much as I weigh, and is home when I'm not home do something she doesn't want to do. She's not a toddler that can be plopped in a car seat and taken somewhere.

I am torn. I don't want her to get pregnant. I don't want her to end up on drugs, or in an accident, or anything else. I don't want her to end up dropping out of school. I don't want her to fail in life. No one wants that for their child. I love her and I know I've been too easy on her, because I wanted to believe her so badly when she made promises. But that hasn't worked. I'm just SOOOOO afraid that the state will take her and do something I totally don't agree with, and I'll have no control over it, or that they won't return custody to me, or something awful like that. She's my baby--I don't want to lose her.

And yes, my WH has been little help in parenting from day one. He as always seen it as the woman's responsibility. We got lucky with DS. He's a little devious, but over all is a pretty good kid. DD is different. And WH's way of parenting has been to either yell and curse at the kids when they made him angry, or to override my decisions and let them do what they wanted because he had no problems with it (i.e., the R-rated movies and the cigarettes). They always thought he was the "cool" one and I was the uptight one.

Ugh! Frustrating. Like a knife in my stomach sometimes. I'm just thankful each night when DD returns home, because I see each day as a new chance. She returned last night an hour later than she promised in the note she left before I got home (after being told she couldn't leave), but at least she was home safely again. So today is another new day.

LL

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

you are NOT a bad parent! not at all.

it's very dificult to tell those who know everything, the way teenagers do, what to do. especially, when you know nothing, since becoming a parent means that we lose all ability to "understand" teens, according to them!

i would definitely call the health department. and yeah, i too am in that income bracket. not enough to pay for expensive things, but to much to qualify for aid!

call them, see what they say. i too would be wary of signing over custody. but maybe the health department can make a few suggestions that don't include that!

i wish you luck!

Interesting phone call this afternoon:

Any of you that have read my older posts remember "mutual person (MP)" (ex-friend who owns property where WH's camper is currently stored. Strange things go on at their house. I had an argument with the wife (MP) and refused to talk to her again until WH made his decision one way or the other).

Okay--'nuf history.

She emailed today, acknowledging that she was aware I wasn't planning to talk to her again, but wanting to know if DS got his grad card and $ from them because she'd never heard. I emailed back--can't remember but will check his card stack.

She then called to thank me for responding and to explain that she feared WH took the card and never delivered it but perhaps pocketed the $ instead, because he was very short of cash at the time.

I hate to believe he'd do that but who knows. At any rate, we did continue talking for another hour or so. (I don't intend to call her again, but may respond to an email occasionally. Life has been very pleasant without her in my life. I still think she and her H are creepy. She did say both she and her H were worried about how I was doing.)

Seems they have also had their fill of WH and his antics. He's lying to them (and doing a poor job covering it), telling them he's coming down and then not showing, accusing them of taking his drugs, and apparently talking badly about them to his coworkers who have passed it along to them.

This woman, who just a few months ago made me sound like the sole cause of the demise of my M, told me today "Don't take him back, LL."

He told me he has to get the camper off their place because they accepted an offer on it. Untrue. They got an offer but told the person they were not selling right now. Misunderstanding? Or WH trying to make me feel sorry for him for being homeless?

He told me OW had only been in it once when I told him last week he needed to sell, because I'd never camp in it again (not that I really believed it). MP's response to that --"Bulls**t!" And she knows...the camper is housed on her property. She says the camper stinks because of all OW's candles.

I told her I figure OW was at my house last week while I was gone. She agrees, because WH didn't come stay in his camper and she said a couple times when she called him on his cell in the evening, she could tell he was talking to someone else in the background. That might explain why the place was cleaned and vacuumed when I returned, and a bottle of my body spritz was on my bedroom desk where I hadn't put it. But maybe I'm imagining. Again, he of course denies she was there except for a brief visit when he stopped over noon to let the dogs out.

MP also said she asked him when he was apartment shopping if the places he was looking at were big enough for a family. He said one was and one wasn't. So much for him telling me he wasn't going to move OW in (although I think he did rent the smaller one--but it's still a 1 br--big enough.) Again, not that I really believed it anyway.

She, like I, suspects he'll spend this insurance settlement $ from his truck like it's water and that it'll be gone in a couple months. She also suspects, as I do, that he'll use it to pay OW's restitution so she can get her drivers license back and that he'll probably buy her an old car so she can keep her job and drive to work. (She also reminded me that half of it was rightfully mine since the truck was titled in both our names, but it's too late now. I signed the check and it's in his account.)

But it gets sadder. One of WH's coworkers who lives near MP stopped by their place to talk about WH. He's concerned, like I am, that WH is going to get himself killed with his stupidity ad insane behavior. He went on a Harley poker run with him last Saturday and apparently WH was weaving all over, scraping the pipes and all. His friend told him to quit it because he didn't want to run over 2 dead bodies (which also tells me that OW went with him even though that never came up when I asked when he'd been with her last).

I truly am afraid that he has lost all will to live and is hoping he dies to get himself out of this. But he doesn't think about where he's headed, and I do, and THAT'S the heart-breaking part.

MP also said she hurt her back recently (she had major back surgery a year ago) but can't even take any prescription pain pills because WH has taken them all when he's been down there. And I guess he also accused her H of stealing his mirror and straw that he uses to snort things. That ticked off MP's husband who went directly to the camper and found it on the counter where WH or OW left it.

WH has sunk SO low. It breaks my heart. And he called today...just to see what was up with me, and to offer to fix my bedroom door so that it latches better. And he text msg'd me to tell me thanks for letting him stay there last night, even though he knows it makes me uncomfortable.

You guys know I want so much to help him so that he doesn't kill himself. But I can't protect him. He's an adult. There's nothing I can do except pray for him.

But seeing all this, and realizing just how much he lies about everything (the coworker told MP that they just assume 99.7% of what he says is a lie) says this is NOT the guy I want to get back with. He lies so much that most of us think he actually believes the lies at this point. I also think that's why he is starting to stutter when he talks. I think he gets confused with what he's said before in his lies and his anxiety from all of it is killing him, or he's getting dangerously close to a nervous breakdown.

But I can't do anything except step away, can I...

LL

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

And then he calls me. And he's all calm and nice. And he asks me what's up. And asks if he can come to the house and pick up some of his clothes this evening.

And then he says he doesn't know what he's going to do...and hesitates. Does he want me to invite him to spend another night here?

I didn't.

And then he asks me about the art festival in town this weekend (because I'd mentioned I'd be busy tomorrow because I thought I might go there). Again, is he hinting that he wants to go with me? He didn't say. I didn't ask.

Is my timing really poor? If I'm in Plan A before Plan B, was I supposed to ask him if he wanted to go? (Up 'til now, I'd decided I was in Plan LL, and it isn't very specific. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

I wonder if he's testing the waters to see if he wants me back, and I'm being cool??
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

now is the time to stand back, protect yourself, and let him hit bottom. until he does, he will go on telling himself that he's fine, and there won't be a thing you can do to convince him otherwise. especially if it's speed he's snorting...

i would not suggest inviting him along with you. as a matter of fact, i would suggest you try to have him in the house as little as possible. are you prepared for what you will tell the kids should he leave his mirror and straw out at your house? please trust me, they can and do do this.

it doesn't sound like you can do anything to help him, much as you'd like to. now you need to take care of yourself and your kids. protect them from their father's actions, before he does something that could completely lose any respect they have for him.

the fog of adultery has nothing on the fog of addiction...

you can't help him now, as hard as that is to hear, you can only help yourself and your kids.

As for the mirror and what he snorts, for years he's done both coke and meth off and on, though on what I would call a "recreational" level--like he'll buy $50 of it and do it in a weekend, then not do it again for 2-3 months.

I've never done it and have always hated it, but because it didn't change his behavior much except give him lots of cleaning energy until the wee hours and make him very grumpy when he crashed the next day, it wasn't something I fought hard. I worried about him having a heart attack or something or getting caught with it, but the booze was a lot bigger problem with his behavior.

He's very careful about where he keeps his mirror. I rarely ever saw it because he knows how much I disapproved. But I'm sure since he and OW were the only two using the camper, he's not as careful down there because she does it right along with him. And I think they do it a lot more often.

That's why in my potential Plan B letter, I addressed stopping not only the booze but the drugs, too.

As for the kids knowing, I'm not completely sure but I think in one of WH's "honest" moments with at least DS, he told him he's done it (sort of like when he also had a man-to-man talk with him in November and told him he'd slept with OW). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> What he's thinking and why he says things sometimes I'll never know!?

I know DS doesn't like it. I may have caught the boy in bed with a girl when he was 14 and nearly died of shock, but other than a bad male hormone control problem which has gotten better with age, he's very strict about things. Drugs are not an issue.

He doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, and frankly it's almost impossible to get him to take an Advil for a headache because he doesn't like any foreign substance in his body.

DD is more like WH--willing to try things to see what the thrill with them is. I've had LOTS of talks with her about drugs and drinking and I know she's tried a few things already because we've talked about them and what they did and how they did or didn't make her feel.

It's hard not to just demand that she touches none of it, but I know she'll do things just to spite me, so I try not to act shocked and we have honest talks every now and then about things.

LL

<small>[ June 25, 2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL,

He needs to do more than pass hints (faint ones at that). I think you did fine.

Go to the festival and have fun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hugz,
L.

LL,

Here's what I put in my letter before H came home

No other women,
No alcohol
No drugs
Demonstrate with actions, not words, Actively participating in your own recovery, for it to be a life long thing, not just something to get the heat off.

He came home & for a short while was OK, now he's back to the S O S. So I wrote him another letter & will ask him to leave if he doesn't do those things. It's hard. damn it's hard. But I feel the same way you do, I feel more at peace without him.

Take it from me, it's harder to ask him to leave than to not let him come back.

Your WH sounds like he's really out of control. Have you thought about doing an intervention?


D.

LL

My heart goes out to you.

You know don't you that what Melody said is true. Plan A is useless with an alcoholic/drug addict.

Nothing you do at this point matters unless it is to break all contact and let him hit bottom.

Your kids need for you to do this as well.

MP has given you a very big WARNING. He is likely to steal to keep his habit up. It is not unheard of for him to be hooked on drugs now, and may start to go to extremes to get money to pay for it.

Time to protect yourself, your money, and your family. NO MORE letting him watch the house while you are out of town. Have you noticed any money or jewelry missing? I would suggest changing the locks.

Plan B, yes, and think about getting an intermediary. I know MP isn't your favorite, but maybe a good intermediary in this situation...it takes one to know one, and she can see through his behavior and not get snowed.

From what she has said, if you can believe her, and it seems likely to me, you will have to make some special precautions so he doesn't take you down with him... He's putting the money he should be using to support his family-up his nose.

When are you giving him the letter? Take it to the camper? Surprise visit, meet the OW, see the shape of the camper?

Then literally wash your hands of him. He is destroying his life, and you can't save him...it is like you are throwing life preservers out to him and he sees it and is stubbornly swimming the other way. He knows you are there. Just sit tight.

This may not ever work out...he may decide to live this way...or he may not...decide how long you are willing to wait...a year? 2?

Have you thought about doing an intervention?

I have done a little reading/research, but there is really no one to help me with it. His family are the type who believe "live and let live". They won't get involved in others' business. He refuses to go to church, so our pastor would be a bad idea. And his friends/coworkers are just like him and it's several of them who he does this stuff with.

He really doesn't have any good influences who could participate with me in an intervention. And I can't do it by myself. So I don't see it as an option. (And honestly, I believe forcing him to treatment won't work unless he really agrees with it anyway).

I'm going to log off here soon and go to that art festival I mentioned last night. WH didn't show up or call after saying he might be by last evening to pick up his clothes, and I've not heard from him this morning, so again, it seems he's still thinking about himself and not understanding the need to be considerate to others.

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>(And honestly, I believe forcing him to treatment won't work unless he really agrees with it anyway).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, why do you think all those addicts are in treatment and the AA program? Do you think they woke up one day and magically saw the error of their ways in their sick drug warped minds, and just skipped, singing happily, over to the treatment center?

ummmmmmmmmm no.

That is not how it works. AA and the treatment centers are full of people who were FORCED there. They were forced there by a hard bottom [the one you are protecting your H from] or a judge, spouse or employer. Someone likely told them: "AA OR THE HIGHWAY."

So yes, while you can't FORCE your H into treatment or into AA, you can sure tell him that he won't be allowed contact until he does. That might be a huge motivator.

And it sounds like he is already scraping the bottom right now. The only thing stopping him is YOU. He has you to hang onto when things get a little too scary.

And believe me, he is very scared right now from the sounds of it. He is self will run riot and NO ONE will stop him.

I hope he lives long enough to sober up, LL. He may not and you are not helping him at all. The longer he drinks, the more chances he has of killing himself. Just remember that. You are doing him NO FAVORS with your continued contact.