Melody, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree (or disagree to disagree, or whatever) on this one.

Because he is my DD's father, I won't keep what I believe to be critical info from him. Hopefully there won't be any. I just know based on pas history of hers, it's a possibility. I'm being honest, not trying to make an excuse for contact.

I haven't contacted him all weekend except the one text asking when he's going to put my car door back together (because he took it apart). He hasn't responded. Since we're not in Plan B, I know contact isn't an issue, but point being this: I have no real desire to talk to him. I didn't ask about the door as an excuse to talk. I just want him to put back together what he took apart so I don't have big gaping holes and bolts sticking out and hear road noises all the time.

Also, as for the camper, since my name is on the title, he either has to forge my signature or I have to sign it at the courthouse befure the title can transfer to the new owner. Also, I WANT to be involved in the receipt of the money for it (this is all assuming he sells it), because it's my right to know how much it sold for and to make sure the payoffs happen as they are supposed to and that he doesn't just pocket the cash. Looking out for myself here.

And college: I haven't seen many Plan B'ers on here right now who are doing the college thing. We do not have a college savings fund. If we did, I wouldn't be worried. But I'm flying by the seat of my pants and just praying that I can keep ahead of the bills. If I come up short of cash and need to see if he can help out temporarily, how do I go about that if I have absolute N/C and no intermediary?

I list these as valid concerns. I am NOT using them as excuses (anyone is free to believe otherwise, but I know my intentions).

If we didn't have children, staying dark would probably come easy except for the camper sale. But that's not the case.

I feel like I'm getting a few mixed signals here. "Go to Plan B--you have no time to waste!" "No, you're not ready."

In actuality, I do think I'm going to have to poo or get off the pot soon. Living in limbo does no one any good. So when I think I'm ready, I'll move that direction and we'll see what happens from there.

My best guess at this moment--on or around next weekend if things go as I expect them to.

LL

LL, only yourself knows your situation the best. Everyone else just see them from what you described. I think that you take what is the best for you, and put your own action. You are always in my prayers.

PS Mel...

I love a stimulating debate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, I really do value what you have to say and I do take it seriously.

I'm stubborn (No! Really??!?) and I have opinions. I get a sense you might just be a bit that way, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

LL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong> Melody, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree (or disagree to disagree, or whatever) on this one.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL, I read through all that and still don't see the problem. It all looks like excuses to me. I have a son in college and NEVER talk to my ex, its done all the time, no big feat. If I need to relay a message concerning college to my X, my son passes it on. It has never been an issue.

The camper is easy enough, people sell things all the time, and sign off on titles, without direct contact. You don't have to see him to sign the title.

As far as your daughter, you used her often and early in your last Plan B as an excuse to "frantically" call your H. She pulls this disappearing act quite often; it is no emergency, but a routine way of life with y'all. [actually it is more than that, she manufactures the weekly crises that alcoholic families so love]

In the case of a REAL emergency you could, of course, contact him. That is a given. But her routine disappearing act and your calling the police to fetch her is no emergency, it is a way of life that can easily be handled by one parent. If something REALLY happened to her, then you should call him.

Anyway, you have already decided that you can't do Plan B, so there really is no point to all this. Until you start looking for ways to NOT CONTACT him in Plan B, instead of ways you CAN, ya ain't ready, LL!

And yes, I agree with the others that you should go to Plan B right away, they are right about that. But I know you and have been through this fire drill before. And I know you aren't ready, so it is all for naught.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> MELODY LANE....YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank ya much, Ark! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
<strong>

I'm stubborn (No! Really??!?) and I have opinions. I get a sense you might just be a bit that way, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

LL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't believe you said that!! lol! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

More debate (I just can't give this up now...)

Son could pass certain things along to WH. Agreed. And I'm sure it will get easier as we settle into the college routine. I'm also planning on getting him a cell phone, so there is the option of texting him and then having him text his dad. But if there is something urgent, he's not the best to count on.

Not saying it's going to happen. Just saying I'm aware that this could be a problem area. (BTW, I am going to his orientation for 2 days in July and didn't even consider asking WH if he wanted to attend.)

DD's issues--yep, she's good at the disappearing act. I am worried about her being out of control, but am not involving WH in any of my parenting of her.

I worry about accidents and such and am capable of calling the police and asking. (Got good at it during all WH's drinking years!) So, it's not necessary to call WH anymore in situations like these. She disappeared overnight again a few nights ago (3rd time since February) and yes, I did talk to the cops, and NO I didn't talk to WH at the time. It only happened to get mentioned after the fact when he called asking why no one was answering the home phone later in the day. If I'd have been in Plan B, it wouldn't have come up at all.

I have the day-to-day antics pretty well handled, but if she gets arrested or the state gets involved again, or heaven forbid, she's in a serious accident, WH would deserve to know.

And camper--holding my ground on that one. I want it sold. I want the loans (it and home equity) paid off. If he doesn't get it sold shortly, I'm taking it upon myself to sell it, and that will be tougher because it's at MP's place. I can't have a home equity loan payment when DS is in college, and I don't want to take the chance that WH will default on the camper payment when he runs out of his insurance settlement money. I've worked too hard to maintain perfect credit.

Ulterior motive: If the home equity loan is paid off, I might (big "maybe") be able to make it on my own in the house even if WH lost his job and couldn't pay child support. I wouldn't be able to contribute monthly to DS's college, but at least I wouldn't go under. I'm trying to put these kinds of protections in place so that I don't get creamed financially if something happens with his income.

Okay, I'm all done debating now, unless you come up with a different subject. I've run this one into the ground and it's no longer stimulating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Nothing will happen with a Plan B until end of the week anyway.

LL

Well, when you start focusing all that energy on ways to stay dark instead of ways to break NC, let me know and I will help you. Just remember, though, a half assed Plan B is worse than none at all.

Ark,

Somehow I missed your post in there.

you still believe that some how you have some magicaly powers that make you able to be responsible for any actions of your husbands...

I would be lying if I said I didn't wish there was something I could do to help him see the light.

But I do know logically that there is nothing I can do. That's why I've stopped asking him how much he's drinking, or how often. I've stopped telling him he needs to quit, except when he told me last Sunday that he wanted to come back home.

I've also stopped asking about OW, except again last Sunday when I asked when he'd last seen her, and then again when I got home and asked if she was in my house or car because I had suspicions.

I just shrug and say "uh huh" most of the time when he babbles about these things.

Sure, I WANT to change him. I'll bet most people who are involved with addicts want to get them to change. Like Pep said earlier, her H keeps her from getting weak and bailing our her S. She's a mom--she wants to help him. I'm sure it breaks her heart. But she knows she can't.

In a sad sort of way, I'm like a mom to WH. I've always bailed him out or tried to protect him. I want to help. But I also know I can't.

Old habits are hard to break.

LL

Mel,

I am focusing on ways to stay dark. One of the reasons I haven't even considered it again until now is because of graduation and then my vacation. Too many "if's" there. But that's all done now.

I don't plan on doing a half-assed Plan B.

I am a master at coming up with excuses because I'm always thinking through "what-if" scenarios. So if I really wanted to come up with excuses to make contact, I could come up with about 20 good ones right off the top of my head.

But I'm not doing that. The only things I've mentioned are, in my eyes, legitimate and I will do my best to work around them if I do Plan B.

And if I do, I do expect all you guys to keep me focused so that I don't accidently ANSWER his contact. That's my bigger downfall than initiating contact, though I do have his cell number set to a distinctive ring on my cell phone now so I know who it is.

The only way he could sneak through anonymously would be on my 2nd line at work. I have caller ID on line 1, but if I'm on the phone, it rings to my 2nd line and doesn't show the number. I don't like to put people on hold so I generally let it roll to voice mail unless the person opts out and has the operator page me.

(Okay...help me with that Line 2 thing. I just now thought of it, and I wouldn't put it past WH to call and have me paged if I don't pick up my phone. Again, if it's line 1, or if my cell rings first, I'll know it's him, but if it's just line 2, I won't. And I'm on the phone frequently so it easily could happen.)

Okay, now that I think about it, that one is the most likely thing to screw up my N/C. Ideas? Changing my work number is not an option.

LL

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

Well, this is turning out to be the very interesting show that I thought it would be!

LL, you are tenacious in your thinking patterns! Dang, girl! You can hold onto a line of thinking, in the face of some really sensible, learned advice, like no other! Truly!

You should read your posts again. You make excuses, ML and others call you on them, then you begin another post under the "guise" of a debate, and say the same things over again! Hm. How has this pattern of doing things served you so far in your life? Perhaps you are not ready to answer that question.

Hang in there, girl. I am expecting you to have an Oprah "Ah hah" moment at any time now. I truly understand ML's mental constipation comment from last February now.

Love ya, LL! You are one of the most interesting people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I think you are great. Constipated, but great. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SS

Okay, under the guise of a debate...

Going dark: Remember the mutual friend of ours, who turned out to not be such a friend to me. I refer to her now as mutual person (MP). She was my total source of info on what was going on with WH and OW because they spent lots of time at her place. She was also the one I talked to for hours on end in the middle of the night.

I knew her way of dealing with WH wasn't right or healthy. But I was "addicted" in a sense to being able to know everything about WH and OW. And then she hit a nerve, a very sensitive one, and I told her I would not be speaking to her again until WH made his decision.

Okay, so "no contact" was finally broken by her this week, and only one conversation. But I'd been "dark" since that conversation with her in mid-April. That's 2 1/2 months without so much as one email or text to her phone!

If you'd have asked me if I could just give up my daily information source and my 2am phone-a-friend, I'd have said "I'm going to try". I didn't know if I would really pull it off.

I have no intentions of calling her again either. We took care of the issue she called about in the one phone call.

So point being, I CAN stay dark, even if I don't go into it with absolute certainty.

Not quite the same as going dark with WH--not the same connections, nor the same importance--but still making a sort'a kind'a point.

LL

Oh! Are you a backer-inner? It sounds like you "back yourself in" to difficult situations, instead of walking in forward. OK, now I am beginning to understand your tactics.

What I mean by backer-inner is, have you ever seen kids play basketball for the first time? When they are on the "offense," they dribble the ball, have one arm out to "guard" themselves from the defense, and they back in toward the basket. Which makes it difficult to see to shoot, see your team mates for passes, and to see what is going on around you. BUT, being a basketball player myself, it is how all kids start out playing!

Then, I watch the NBA, and that offense RUNS head-on into the court and drives toward the basket, facing forward, looking around and assessing the sitch to make the best play possible.

That is how I see your tactic. Back to my question, how has this served you in the past?

SS

SS,

Perhaps this is why I was always so poor at Bball (though I also hated playing so that could have had something to do with it).

Sadly enough, you may have accurately pointed out yet another personality flaw of mine.

I am more "reactive" than "proactive"--probably because I have such a hard time making a decision.

I can't seem to just pick an option and then go full throttle with it. I have to analyze and waver back and forth, and then I'm down to the wire and that's why I have to "react".

(You should experience me at a Chinese restaurant where there are 70 items on the menu. It stresses me out to have to order!)

Okay, so I know I do it, but it's not as easy to just change it. Sort of like being shy and suddenly just expecting to be outgoing. It takes work. Can't just snap my fingers and immediately be different, even if I don't like how I am.

LL

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lordslady:
[QB]

I don't plan on doing a half-assed Plan B.

I am a master at coming up with excuses because I'm always thinking through "what-if" scenarios. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would agree with this. But I would call it an exercise in mental masturbation. It prevents you from EVER dealing with *WHAT IS* because you keep yourself stuck on imaginary "what ifs." This exercise can used as an excuse to never do ANYTHING and is used by folks who are committed to the status quo.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if I really wanted to come up with excuses to make contact, I could come up with about 20 good ones right off the top of my head.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know, I have seen you do it many times and am watching it again today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I will do my best to work around them if I do Plan B.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I agree you shouldn't bother at all. If this all the certainty you have, you shouldn't waste your time.

Sorry..I truly am certain about nothing in life. I trust no one except God.

----------------------------------------------
Okay, so let me reword my two main concerns because I apparently need help in coming up with solutions for them if I do a Plan B:

1) If WH's weekly paycheck isn't the standard amount, how do I know how much to transfer to my account? I take a % of net after taxes. (May happen this week--text from WH said he's passing stones again yesterday and today. I assume he's not at work right now.)

2) If I'm on the phone at work, line 2 rings, I let it roll to voice mail, and I get a page, what do I do? May be one of my communities needing to talk to me immediately - or - might be WH trying to make contact.

3) College--skipping this issue. Not as urgent.

4) If DD continues to do stupid things and gets in more major trouble or the state gets involved (as they did when she was cutting her arms), how do I keep WH in the loop?

I pose these questions and look forward to seeing answers from you all. The answer can't be a question turned back at me. It has to be a workable plan. Deal?

LL

LL, if you don't want to do Plan B, then don't do it. It's not up to me or anyone else to convince you to do something against your will. This is your life, not mine. You don't need anyone's approval to do what you want to do.

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

LL - I know you don't like me but I am going to be a thorn in your backside one more time.

This is not only about you, it is about your children. They may want to have a dad when they get older, and if you are the enabling line that allows your husband to go on in this path, then you have the ability to cut the line and let him bottom out now. He might do it anyway, but show your kids that this kind of behavior is not acceptable. Gain THEIR respect.

I lost my dad to alcoholism and spent many, many years begging my Mom to do what everyone told her might help. And that was saying I will not be here for you unless you get sober and be the person we need you to be. I spent many years begging my dad too, to stop drinking and many years taking care of him when my Mom no longer would/could. Is this what you want for your kids?

Weaver

Okay guys, you are avoiding answering my questions. Please refer back to items 1-4 in my above post (or please---at least items 1-2) and tell me how YOU'D work with or around them if you were in my shoes.

They may sound petty but I know they will come up, and probably sooner into Plan B rather than later.

I'm not trying to be stubborn here. I'm genuinely asking for ideas because I haven't come up with any workable ones.

SERIOUSLY!! Help me on this one. D**n it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LL

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL - I know you don't like me

Uh, Weaver...did I ever say that??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Truthfully, if I don't agree with you guys, you'll know it. It doesn't mean you can't convince me I'm wrong. I do change my mind.

But it certainly doesn't mean I don't like you! I know you and all the others are trying your best to get through to me and I can't begin to ever express how much I appreciate all the timje you take doing this. If you'd read far enough back in my threads (which no one really has time to do, including me), I believe you would see that I have grown. It just takes me longer.

LL