Hi all, it's been some time since I posted on Dylan and my situation. Sorry 'bout that... we've been kind of busy with each other. (But don't all get your congrats out yet)

So I'll start by saying that all else aside, it is great having my best friend back. I've really missed her company and having her around to talk to in the evenings is awesome. Also, she's really taken over in the cooking and cleaning arenas which is supremely helpful and appreciated. (I'm an 'ok' cook... Dylan rocks!)

We are getting along. No major fights or butting of heads. But then that's no big surprise, as we've always been that way.

She is still not interested in saving this marriage though. Too much to get over. She says that me sleeping with my ex is just too big a thing to get past. I understand, but a little voice tells me that she didn't want to save 'us' even before I messed up.

Our son is ecstatic about having his Mom back. He missed her sooooooo much over the past 6 months. I can see that we have a lot of work ahead of us as far as he is concerned.

Now, onto the things I could really use some of your heads on...

A few nights ago, a had a nightmare. In it, Dylan had decided to leave me and settle down with someone from the bar she used to work at. Shaking and very upset, I got out of bed and sat down at the computer. I checked my mail and then, logged into hers. I honestly wasn't expecting to find anything... just wanted to see. It was the first time I'd done that in about 5 years.

The first thing I saw was a letter from OP. The short message was as devastating as a blow to the the gut with a baseball bat. They had talked that day on the phone. (No mention of that from Dylan, despite aggreements concerning no contact and honesty) Her message was mushy and lovey and made reference to plans for talking the next day. It was signed, "sweet everything, OP"

Of course that was it for sleep for me. I went through the rest of her email, reading this and that. What I learned... MIL was so happy when we split up. Other friends also being much less than supportive in regards to fixing marriage. One of the ones that hurt me pretty bad is an old MBer. Instead of encouraging communication and problem solving, she cuts me up pretty bad and commiserates about how 'controlling' I am, and subtley abusive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> This is the same MBer that I tried to help many years ago, the same one I called for help with this situation and the same one who cut me up for messing up what could have been a great and lasting friendship between Dylan and OP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Also there was another email from a good friend of hers from smalltownsville who forwarded some pictures of the house that included pics of OP. This person is also a close friend of OP.

Of course I was distraught. Not just about finding that there are so many people that subtly working against our marriage, but mostly because there was clear evidence that Dylan is capable and willing to lie to me and deceive me.

One thing I held onto... a touchstone, (if you get my meaning) is that I always believed Dylan to be an honest woman. I honesty believed that no matter what, she would be straight up and honest with me. To find that is not the case is devastating. It undermines everything. Everything. Many of you will wonder why I'm so surprised. It's because regardless of the affair and the horrors surrounding that, I've maintained an awesome respect for her integrity. I thought that no matter how screwed up she might feel, and regardless of the things that happened, she would be truthful about it with me.

I was pretty fried by the time morning came around and called in sick to work. During the affair, I pretty much fell apart and have worked very hard over the last half year to rebuild myself. I am not willing to lose that. I am not willing to allow a situation that will have me suffering from insomnia, anxiety, panic attacks, etc... Not again. Not now, not ever.

So I took the day off and we talked. I told her about what I'd found and despite the fact that she does not want to save our marriage, we agreed that our son needs both his parents on a daily basis and that we need him too. We made a decision to continue to try to live together and rebuild a relationship even if it does not include physical intimacy. Anyway, this agreement of ours is another post altogether. Big issues there. But for the purposes of this post, our agreement includes total honesty, openness and no contact with OP.

So the next morning, I pop into her email, and find a message from the person who is friends with OP. She set up a new email account for Dylan, with advice on how to keep it secret. Boom. Another devastating blow. Not even 24 hours since Dylan and I talked about openness and honesty. I went to work, stewed in it all day and decided to wait and see what happened. When I got home, the email had been moved to the trash folder. Dylan said nothing about it till about 11 that night. I didn't get the impression she would have mentioned it at all if she didn't think I already knew about it. We talked again about honesty and openness and on one hand since we aren't officially trying to save our marriage, she feels that she should be able to talk with whomever she wants. On the other hand, she understands how hurtful that can be for me and wants to respect that.

Since then, I can see that she is being more careful with her emails. All the emails from the sent folder are gone and I'm pretty sure I could check till the cows come home and not find anything. Sadly I don't feel that is because there is nothing to find. I really hate snooping, but I really need reassurance that there is no plotting and behind the back stuff. I probably shouldn't have mentioned what I found, or told Dylan that I knew what was up, but I don't have it within me to jump into the deceiving/espionage game. Not just because I refuse to be that way and not just because we agreed upon a policy of honesty, but because really there's no way I could keep constant tabs on her even if I really wanted to- which I don't.

I don't want to live my life in a state of paranoia and mistrust.

Anyway, there's tons more to this, but this post is already long enough.

I would really appreciate any advice and insight into how to deal with all this. Things look pretty bleak for the marriage. If I have to live celibately with Dylan in order to give my son the chance to grow up with both his parents there, I'm willing to give it my all. Living without many of my emotional needs being filled is a very very bleak prospect, but it's overshadowed by what I feel is a very profound responsibility to my son.

I believe that there is something salvageable here. It may take years and it may be incredibly difficult, but Dylan is sooooo worth it. And there has never been another who I've loved so much and so completely. I refuse to give up hope.

One question that's burning in my mind is about all these people that are working against Dylan and I building a deep connection. The ones encouraging sneakiness and reinforcing to her what a controlling and abusive bum I am? Obviously I cannot choose her friends for her. Obviously I will get no further insight from her email and quite frankly my faith in her honesty has been decimated. Where do I go from here?

dewt

Hey, I feel you, man. I've been there big time. My wife was in many ways my hero because of her integrity and honesty. When I caught her in lie after lie and sneaky behavior, that was so painful to me. I couldn't believe that she'd lie to me like that. Our MC said to us that marital infidelity is like temporary insanity. The person goes insane for a time. They throw everything they held dear, even kids, careers, life, family out the window for this new addiction that makes them feel so good. But, the thing about it is, it is a fantasy. They have wrapped their lives up in a fantasy that cannot work.

I would say you've been given a blessing by her moving in with you (as long as there is NC). This is your opportunity! Don't LB, be kind, loving, be everything she wants. Don't tell her you're doing it, just do it. Let her see your best qualities up close and personal. Do something fun with your kid and bring her along. Make it an awesome day. Plan it well down to the last detail. Set it up as a fun day, yes, but more than that it will be a day to display you! Keep this up and if what you said at the beginning of your post is true (being best friends with Dylan), then you've got a good chance here.

Do you think she is committed to the NC thing? I hope so for your sake. If you find out there is more contact, dont' be a doormat. Stand your ground with no LB.

God Bless

Hi Dewt,

Your responsibility to your son is to bring him up to be a balanced person, one who will be able to know himself, one who will not be afraid to love and to make solid and good decisions towards happiness for himself. Yes, he does need both parents, and he can have that even if you two live in separate homes... it all depends on how you explain it to him and how you support him through it. You mustn't allow him to live in a lie. Yes, you can explain to him until you are blue in the face about your situation and how Dylan may be staying with you for whatever reasons, but in a child's mind, he will see only that you two are "together" because it is what he will want to see. Think of the future of that child Dewt whaen he realises with his teenage or adult mind, that both his parents have lied to him, that the example that they have given him is that they have resigned themselves to living a quasi-happiness. Be honest with your child in word and in deed. As for you Dewt, why do you chose to live in misery if you know or feel that your marriage will not be saved? Why do you chose to give this as an example to your child? Why do you portray yourself as a person who is incapable of making good & solid decions and givee THIS as an example to your child.
Start to rebuild your life Dewt, build your relationship with Dylan on another level... redefine your commitment as parents but from realistic points of view. Dylan should be moving out.

peace,
Odyssey

Question:

The bit of trust you had for Dylan seems to be gone, you have some proof that she is moving her contact with OP to another forum, another e-mail address. Face the facts Dewt, it looks like there will be contact and that Dylan does not plan to tell you about it... even if she does, is that what you plan to live with and is that what you are worth... If it is... how very sad for you and your family...

Peace,
Odyssey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are getting along. No major fights or butting of heads. But then that's no big surprise, as we've always been that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's your roommate - just as she said she would be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is still not interested in saving this marriage though. Too much to get over. She says that me sleeping with my ex is just too big a thing to get past. I understand, but a little voice tells me that she didn't want to save 'us' even before I messed up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A little voice? Yea, and all her actions for the last XX months. She's still actively in an affair. Of COURSE she'll wrap her head around whatever justification she can - unfortunatly in your situation you gave her plenty to wrap her head around. The two of you have quite a rocky past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she cuts me up pretty bad and commiserates about how 'controlling' I am, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you are dealing with a woman who is actively in an affair. OF COURSE she's going to make you out as controlling. Whether you are or not is not going to be diagnosable by us, because we mostly get only bits and pieces of the situation from your side. Remember why she's there - for your son. She feels like she was coerced there with guilt - and no, she doesn't see that this situation is a direct result of her A. She still blames you for that - and for moving - and now for her being away from her affair partner. There's really nothing you can do about that, Dewt - she's still actively in an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing I held onto... a touchstone, (if you get my meaning) is that I always believed Dylan to be an honest woman. I honesty believed that no matter what, she would be straight up and honest with me. To find that is not the case is devastating.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right - but now she's in an affair, so that makes her a WS. WS's lie. To expect differently is an unreasonable expectation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many of you will wonder why I'm so surprised. It's because regardless of the affair and the horrors surrounding that, I've maintained an awesome respect for her integrity. I thought that no matter how screwed up she might feel, and regardless of the things that happened, she would be truthful about it with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Dewt - you're surprised because you chose to be in denial, rather than believe that your wife is IN AN AFFAIR and acting like every other WS out there. It's really quite important that you come to accept your wifes current choices so that you can start making some realistic and healthy choices for YOURSELF and your child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked again about honesty and openness and on one hand since we aren't officially trying to save our marriage, she feels that she should be able to talk with whomever she wants.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation - I'm going to keep having my affair, and because I never agreed to work on our marriage I'm entitled to do what I want.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On the other hand, she understands how hurtful that can be for me and wants to respect that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation - I'll hide it better next time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We made a decision to continue to try to live together and rebuild a relationship even if it does not include physical intimacy. Anyway, this agreement of ours is another post altogether. Big issues there. But for the purposes of this post, our agreement includes total honesty, openness and no contact with OP. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you see at all how subtly controlling this does come off as?? It really boils down to sounding like a plan to 'trick' her in to leaving the A and worming your way back in as her spouse. She's making this decision based on her love for her son - or her guilt at her obvious abandonment of him. Her decision has NOTHING to do with you - and as such she will not honor your no contact agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really hate snooping, but I really need reassurance that there is no plotting and behind the back stuff.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you shouldn't be living with someone who is actively in an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want to live my life in a state of paranoia and mistrust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Same as above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I have to live celibately with Dylan in order to give my son the chance to grow up with both his parents there, I'm willing to give it my all. Living without many of my emotional needs being filled is a very very bleak prospect, but it's overshadowed by what I feel is a very profound responsibility to my son. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe for one minute that this situation will work. YOU DON'T DO WELL when your needs aren't being met - and it's not like you're living with a roommate - you're living with your wife, whom you want back and whom is rejecting you on a daily basis and actively having an affair behind your back (and will continue to do so).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that there is something salvageable here. It may take years and it may be incredibly difficult, but Dylan is sooooo worth it. And there has never been another who I've loved so much and so completely. I refuse to give up hope.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a difference between giving up hope, and keeping your head buried in the sand. Your wife is having an affair, and you keep treating this as if it's somehow different than the other situations on this board. It's not - she's in the fog and she may or may not ever decide she wants to come back. Nothing changes just because you have her under your roof - other than the fact that she now feels trapped again and has no chance to really experience life with you without feeling smothered and spied on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where do I go from here?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wake up Dewt - and start thinking about a WORKABLE plan, more along the MB lines. Not this hostage situation. Regardless of YOUR INTENTIONS, that is exactly how she probably feels.

Thank you for your replies... there is much to think about and I already have responses going through my head. I don't have a chance to post them now as I'm off to help a friend move.

I'll try to get back later tonight or tommorrow, depending on how long this takes. (I may stay overnight)

ttfn,
dewt

Hey RWS, thanks for dropping in. The temporary insanity thing... yeah, I'll buy that for a dollar. So many things have left me just scratching my head with incredulous amazement. So many things I just never saw coming. If anybody, a year ago, would have predicted this, I'd have thought they were insane...

Anyway, thanks for the good advice. Having some fun, hanging out... I've been doing this and really enjoying it.

As for the NC... I don't know what to believe. I do know two things for sure. (1) All lies surface. Eventually. And (2) I can't control her. She will do what she will do and all I can do is make decisions for me.

Odyssey,

You said, "Your responsibility to your son is to bring him up to be a balanced person, one who will be able to know himself, one who will not be afraid to love and to make solid and good decisions towards happiness for himself."

Indeed. I am also a firm believer in 'teach by example'. If nothing else, the last 8 months have been an incredible journey into self. But there is other stuff too... facing fears about feeling love has, shall we say, been a prominent theme. And making good and solid decisions towards happiness has been a major challenge with both failures and successes. Each decision made has had consequences. The decisions made towards a momentary/immediate happiness have led to ruin and pain whereas the decisions made with deeper, more profound happiness have left me with a good feeling about myself even if those decisions have not led to the results I'd hoped for.

In regards to m'boy having both parents, well unless one of us were to die, he would always have both parents no matter what. The key issue here, is him having both parents actively involved in his upbringing on a daily basis. I've seen the difference with my own eyes between a child raised in an intact family and one raised with parents not together. There are some pretty profound differences, and no amount of explaining or support will change the fundemental facts... We say kids adapt. I agree they do, but no matter how well they adapt, there is still a bottom line.

And I've no intention of living a lie. Dylan and I are not pretending to be 'together' in a romantically intimate way. We have separate bedrooms and are not pretending to be husband and wife.

If he sees us as being 'together', well on many levels he is right. And I think it's good that he see this because on many levels we are together. Not in the way I would ultimately prefer, but in regards to running a household and raising a child, we are very much together. And I think that is very important for him to see- that despite our differences and our issues, we are still capable of holding it together for him.

You said, Think of the future of that child Dewt whaen he realises with his teenage or adult mind, that both his parents have lied to him, that the example that they have given him is that they have resigned themselves to living a quasi-happiness.

If such a day should come, I hope that his realization is that despite all catastrophe, his parents stuck it through for him. That when push came to shove, we put aside our own selfish desires in order to provide him with an upbringing that included (on a daily basis) the influence and love of both parents. Like I said, there will be no lying to him about that. If he takes a lesson from this, I hope that he sees we took our responsibilities and vows as parents very seriously.

-As for you Dewt, why do you chose to live in misery if you know or feel that your marriage will not be saved?

First and foremost, remember that I had a hand in developing this situation. BS 101. Dylan didn't just get up one day and decide to destroy our marriage and family. This sad, sorry state of our union has taken nearly a decade to engineer and it was a team effort. So I can't say that I've just been plunged into desolation with no warning or reason.

Also I don't know that this marriage can't be saved. And feelings chang. The situation itself is proof enough of that. If, one year ago, someone had described this arrangement and predicted it, I'd have told them to lay off the dope for a while. This site is all about feelings and how they are a reaction to our environment. So, who can say for certain what the future holds? Not I.

As for living in misery... well that's a toughy. I am recalled of a conversation where we were romantically discussing weird future scenarios. One question that surfaces was would we stay together if something developed where we could never have sex again. (Like a car accident or something). I remember saying that I'd stick by her, no matter what. Well, now it's time to put my money where my mouth is. This is not exactly a car accident, more like a train wreck if you ask me, but in the end it boils down to a good hard look at priorities and what's most important.

Why do you chose to give this as an example to your child?

Because it's an example of self sacrifice, perseverance, moral stregnths and fortitude. Because I vowed to give him the best life I can. If worse comes to worse and that means waiting another 8-10 years before I can enjoy the intimate touch of a woman again, so be it. (I say this with considerably more trepidation than my cocky tone would suggest)

Why do you portray yourself as a person who is incapable of making good & solid decions and givee THIS as an example to your child.

I think that this statement relates very well to all the decisions I've made in the past. The decisions that I've made that led me here in the first place. The decisions and behaviour that contributed to a marriage that was so unpleasant to my wife that she was ready to do just about anything to bring an end to it.

Now I'm trying to make decisions based on a different paradigm. A way of thinking that doesn't place self gratification at the top of the list. A way of thinking that revolves around my commitments as a father, as a husband and as a Christian.

Start to rebuild your life Dewt, build your relationship with Dylan on another level... redefine your commitment as parents but from realistic points of view.

I have started. Despite the bumps and bruises and mistakes along the way, I am rebuilding and redesigning my life. The old life pretty much sucked.

Indeed Dylan and I are going to be building a relationship on a different level. We must. No matter what the future holds for us, it is imperative that we redefine and rebuild our relationship and life together. It is my sincerest hope that one day, down the road, romantic love will be a part of that. Wether that happens or not, there are other aspects of our relationship that are more important and therein my (hopefully our) effort will be focused.

Dylan should be moving out.

We shall see. If she is incapable of openness and honesty, I believe she should. This rebuilding is going to require a lot of effort on both our parts and if that effort is not going to be made, then this is indeed a recipe for disaster. I am willing to face self sacrifice for the greater good, but I also realize that I'm a human being with feelings and I do not volonteer for a situation that is going to render me an insomniac, panic sticken, anxiety filled, hurt fella. Been there, done that, and realize that I'm no good to anyone if I'm falling to bits. There's a difference between self sacrifice and self destruction. I do have boundries and limits.

Question:
The bit of trust you had for Dylan seems to be gone, you have some proof that she is moving her contact with OP to another forum, another e-mail address. Face the facts Dewt, it looks like there will be contact and that Dylan does not plan to tell you about it... even if she does, is that what you plan to live with and is that what you are worth... If it is... how very sad for you and your family...

I cannot control Dylan. Trust, ultimately is a choice. My car accident taught me that. I still get behind the wheel and drive down the road, even though I know that at anytime, out of the blue, another car might veer right into me head on. I could even lose my life in a fiery ball of violence. Yet I still get behind the wheel and drive. The alternative is to stay home and never go anywhere.

I believe that no lie can remain hidden forever. If Dylan is engaged is clandestine communication with OW, it will surface. I do not plan to live with this. If she and I are going to make this work, there must be honesty and some form of the Harly "Rule of Protection" in place. If it turns out that she's going to try to have a secret life I can only deal with it or face that fact when it surfaces.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I'd lived a totally righteous life, but the fact is I've had to work at regaining trust before and was given a chance to do so. I stumbled along the way too. Ultimately, I recovered from my stumble and built a new me. Dylan deserves the same chance she gave me 5 years ago.

And there are a lot of things that are very sad for me and my family. But as my sig line says, enough is enough. I cannot control Dylan, but I can control me. I chose to start making decisions for the greater good. Decisions based on long term values and beliefs. 'Reacting' to the predictable behaviour of a wayward will not lead me to where I want to be. It will only lead to more sadness. For true happiness, I feel I must take a higher, albeit more difficult road.

hope4future,

Thanks for the reality check, and insights into the mind of the wayward... (insert Twilight Zone theme)

Yes I know all of this. Somehow I thought that the rules would not apply to me. LOL!!!

I know she is here as my roommate and for our sons benefit. I've been taking my BS 101 lessons and while I'm not thrilled with things, it's the situation that is and all I can do is manage myself through it.

As for the controlling issue, my comments were in regards to others... 'friends' of Dylan who are more into expounding upon my perceived faults rather than trying to give advice geared towards problem solving.

I know Dylan thinks I'm controlling. And in retrospect, I have to agree that I've had difficulty differentiating between setting boundries and trying to control. Don't take this as an admission that I'm a control freak. Believe me, I'm not, but in subtle ways, often without being aware of it, I do try to control. Clearly this is something I have to work on. Something I have been working on. Something I will continue to work on.

She feels like she was coerced there with guilt - and no, she doesn't see that this situation is a direct result of her A. She still blames you for that - and for moving - and now for her being away from her affair partner. There's really nothing you can do about that, Dewt - she's still actively in an affair.

I know there's nothing I can do about that. A comment she dropped a few days ago illustrates that. But for the sake of clarity, I did not force or coerce her to come her. I ran into a situation where I needed help with my son. I asked her. I was careful to make it a request, not a demand. I did not engineer the situation with my boy soley to get her to come running. In fact, I would have prefered it if this situtation had not happened and she would have joined us when she was ready.

As for the blaming, well, I cannot control her perceptions. I cannot control the way she thinks. All I can do is behave in the ways I think are appropriate and right. God grant me the stregnth to change the things I can, the perseverance to face the things I cannot change and the wisdom to know the difference.


Right - but now she's in an affair, so that makes her a WS. WS's lie. To expect differently is an unreasonable expectation.

I'm working very hard at curbing my expectations. This is happening on many levels. My Bible warns against having expectations. My lot is to do what's right and true without the expectations. A difficult thought pattern to weave to be sure, but hey, nobody said this would be easy.

It's really quite important that you come to accept your wifes current choices so that you can start making some realistic and healthy choices for YOURSELF and your child.

Welcome to BS 101 right? Or is this the second semester in the School of Hard Knocks? At this point, my choices have more to do with me than with her. Of couse there are limits to this, boundries if you will. But there is also forgiveness, understanding, grace, and a decision to avoid hypocracy.

Translation - I'm going to keep having my affair, and because I never agreed to work on our marriage I'm entitled to do what I want.

Well this is where the difference between setting boundries and trying to control comes in. If we are going to try to learn to live together, there must be some respect and consideration for each others feelings. Neither us can just do 'whatever we want, whenever we want' if we really want to make this work.

Translation - I'll hide it better next time.

Sigh. Yeah, I know. Like I said. Been there, done that myself. But also like I said, the truth inevitably surfaces.

It really boils down to sounding like a plan to 'trick' her in to leaving the A and worming your way back in as her spouse.

What trick? I'm being pretty straightforward about my desire to see us reunited. If it never happens, well that'll suck, but so be it. And my sneaky tactic is not to 'worm' my way back in as her spouse, but to 'earn' my way back in.

Her decision has NOTHING to do with you - and as such she will not honor your no contact agreement.

Her motives for being here are right on the table. I know very well that it's not for me. Regardless, this is our home, but it is also my home and if she cannot respect my feelings, if she insists on behaving in ways that will hurt me, she will have to leave. Boundries. I will not live a life of misery. Period. That's the difference between self sacrifice and self destruction. (did I already post that?)

About the 'snooping', you said: "Then you shouldn't be living with someone who is actively in an affair."

Which is a fair statement. On the other hand, I am also living with the Mother of my Child, and trying to rebuild a working relationship with her. Rebuilding trust requires more than just the wayward working on it. It takes an active effort on the part of the betrayed too.

I don't believe for one minute that this situation will work. YOU DON'T DO WELL when your needs aren't being met - and it's not like you're living with a roommate - you're living with your wife, whom you want back and whom is rejecting you on a daily basis and actively having an affair behind your back (and will continue to do so).

No indeed, I don't have a history of dealing with things well and wisely when my needs aren't being met. However, this past six months has had its effect on me. And with plenty of mistakes along the way, I'm learning that there are some things more important than needs.

And I'm particularily aware of that fact now more than ever, living with the woman to whom I've devoted my life and soul and yet having her out of reach ways that are so important to me. And yet, if you boil it down to a bottom line question the answer is clear.

Rate the following needs in order of importance:

-MY need to raise my child in 2 parent family
-my need for time with the woman I love, my best friend, Dylan
-my need for physical intimacy (including sex)

If you were me, what would you choose?

Can I imagine the next decade with her in a celibate style lifestyle? If she's serious about working with me on building a working relationship according to MB principles then yes, I can picture it. If we are never physically intimate again, it will definitely suck, but would not be enough reason to not be with her. Notwithstanding the parental issues, this personal one is pretty big.

There is a difference between giving up hope, and keeping your head buried in the sand. Your wife is having an affair, and you keep treating this as if it's somehow different than the other situations on this board.

How do you mean? I know this woman. Even without finding the emails, I know where I stand. I can see it in her eyes, read it in her body language. She does not deceive well. It is new for her and her every tone and even the way she speaks betrays that there is more to it than is being said. I'm not stupid and even though without evidence or admission I can only imagine what is going on, I can see the 'something underneath' at work.

It's not - she's in the fog and she may or may not ever decide she wants to come back.

I have such a problem with the term 'fog'. Though I have used it myself because of it's convenience, I just find that it implies the WS is acting without reason. I have, over the years given Dylan every reason to run for the hills. Well, almost every reason. I've never hit her. Threatened her or been purposely mean to her. Anyway, the point is that to me, the things that Dylan has done are understandable and it is my job to remove the incentives to remain in 'the fog'.

That being said, I've been the WS, and I know just how creative I could get;
justifing...
working insane things into reasonable arguments...
manufacturing a belief system that allows for my behavior.

And I also know that someone not accustomed to living outside a core set of values cannot keep this up forever.

Nothing changes just because you have her under your roof - other than the fact that she now feels trapped again and has no chance to really experience life with you without feeling smothered and spied on.

Everything changes now that she and I are under the same roof. For one thing, this is going to require A LOT of work. Marriage aside, we have a relationship to work on and we are in a position where we now HAVE TO do the work.

I did not trap her here. I did not engineer the situation that brought her here. She is here for her son, remember? If she decided she wanted to move out, I would not, could not stop her.

As for the smothering and spying upon, all I can say is that through open an honest communication we can avoid smothering... and hey, it just might work for the spying thing too although there is that little issue about trust...

...start thinking about a WORKABLE plan, more along the MB lines.

We have decided to go through SAA again and of course this site, and put together a plan. A real plan, on paper, that we will actually follow.

Not this hostage situation. Regardless of YOUR INTENTIONS, that is exactly how she probably feels.

If she feels that way, it is her choice to perceive it that way. If she does feel this way, she also has the option of talking to me about it. I don't need nor want her as a hostage. (No offense meant to her) And if there are things that I'm doing that are specifically making her feel that way I'm more than willing to address that.

My intentions are to provide the best possible familial situation for my son. I intend to start rebuilding my life and continue in my personal growth. Dylan and I have agreed upon something in principle and I intend to keep my end of the bargain. I intend to become the kind of person Dylan deserves (would like to have) as a mate with the understanding that she may not ever feel that way.

None of this includes taking hostages, or ransom notes or the harming of small woodland animals in any way shape or form.

dewt

Hello Dewt,
I have read your responses and you know what? You are back at square 1, having responded nothing which reflects any change in your situation, in your thinking and in the growth as aa person that you say you have been doing. Furthermore, it reflects that you have not been seeing your counsellor. I don't know what else to write to you, because I don't want to sound like a broken record. And the fact that you say that you are willing to sacrifice your own needs, for what seems an indefinite time, well, that's unrealistic and unhealthy because , one day you will most likely burn-out and be so unable to function, that the sacrifices you think you are making for your child, will be worthless. Actually Dewt, the way you express yourself, going in circles with your situation, and reflecting such disorganisation and an inability to make GOOD decisions, reflects the state of a person who is already burning out. Not saying this as a 2x4; I am very concerned for your well-being, but mostly for the well being of Mini.

Peace,
Odyssey

So Dewt - exactly what IS it that you're looking for here? You write and say that you want insight and advice, and then you argue every single point that goes against what you want to do or think. Every time. Every single time. I used to love to argue - and would probably have been more than willing to continue running in circles with you - but time is something I no longer have a lot of. So if you could kindly cut to the quick and tell me exactly what question it is that you REALLY have (IE That you don't already have an arguement formed for) I would be happy to try to help. Otherwise - good luck with all this. Please atleast get your son in counseling. He will definatly need it.

Dewt, welcome back I was going to reach out and ask if you were still around. Anyway there's a lot to digest in this post but your situation sort or parralles mine in the area of enabling. Patience ins't always a virtue as my W has taught me. I'm glad Dylan is home for you and jr. But agreed there has to be boundaries or she will be able to do more damage while home than away. I think it would be smart to establish a time frame for results. Some way to monitor progress even if it's only baby steps. Of course you can't be expected to remain celibate. You're undying love is admirable but it is also finite. You may find your LB deteriorating more quickly with her home if she is treating you very well. So my advice would be to continue to snoop and continue to confront with whatever you find. And NEVER apoligize for how you went about finding it. Nothing in off limits. You are motivated to protect yourself and your son since she isn't ABLE (not willing but ABLE) to right now.

As far as MIL and friends not supporting the M. I wouldn't soon forget that but you can't worry about them right now. You just need to protect yourself because nobody else is right now.

WOE

Hello Dewt,

I was just thinking. I remember a while ago when you were writing that Mini was going to stay with Dylan over the summer time since he is not in school and that Dylan was to take the time to make a decision about whether or not to work on the marriage. I think there was a July -August deadline for that. What about going back to that plan for beginners. Is this a possibility or is it too late for that?
I think you should really stop wasting all your energies here, justifying your reasons for your living arrangements with Dylan, and stop using Mini as the excuse. In your post, you mentioned that you hope that the lesson Mini takes from all of this is that you took your responsibilities and vows as parents seriously. No Doubt, but don't confuse the two. Your responsibilities toward your son are one thing and your vows as husband and wife are another. Your vows, whether you like this or not have been broken and violated by both of you. The truth is that the only thing that binds you as husband and wife is a formality, which I believe from what you have mentioned before, was never a legal and binding one anyway, never formalised. Your child is a common thread, but does not bind you in any way as husband and wife.Yes you are his parents, but that is about it for now and good parenting can be done from separate households given good communication, a common vision of a parenting relationship, and given close proximity so that Mini can have both parents close to him and full members in his life.
You are getting lost in what you want, over the realities of your situation. My impression is that you must keep Dylan around a while longer so that she can see your changes, be seduced by all the improvements you have made. You are wasting your time. When will this craziness end? How can I (we here) help and support you? I personally find myself getting caught up in your cylce with nothing new to offer you in terms of insight because you are still in the same place with the same issues, still unable to make decisions, still living in limbo. Make a plan for yourself and Mini. You said you are willing to sacrifice your own needs indefinitely, so do them with Dylan living away from you. My impression is that one of your personal needs right now is to have Dylan there for you. Sacrifice that too then.

Peace,
Odyssey

What am I looking for here? Voices. Viewpoints. Advice. Ideas. Support and empathy when I'm having a tough time. Mostly stuff like that. Oh yeah, arguments too. Lots of arguments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Seriously. Some things people say to me here deserve an argument. Why? Because they are valid points. If your post doesn't hit close to home, I'll just simply disagree with you.

The fact is that I can't disagree with most of what you posted to me. My 'arguments' are me explaining how I'm trying to deal with it both emotionally and in action. I post it in this forum because I know that often enough I don't think straight and (yes, it's true) I have been known to do the odd stupid and self-destructive thing. So I look for different viewpoints and opinions and think about them, and argue them, and sometimes they even serve to remind me about why I'm even doing this in the first place.

I know my wife had an affair. And I also know that whether I intercept any emails or not, part of her brain is still having an affair. Some people 'round these here parts call that 'withdrawal from the OP'. Dylan has agreed to no contact. I was warned on these very boards to expect some backsliding, and to not get discouraged when it happened.

I also know that there's a lot of resentment on her part towards me. That's part of what makes an affair possible. It's certainly part of what made this affair possible. And I'll tell y'all something else... there are reasons for that resentment. Valid reasons. And no, she may not ever come back from that point.

But I really don't think my case is special. In fact, try to point out one issue in my threads that hasn't ever come up here before...

Odyssey, you said, "I have read your responses and you know what? You are back at square 1, having responded nothing which reflects any change in your situation, in your thinking and in the growth as aa person that you say you have been doing."

I need you to explain exactly why you would say this before I can agree, disagree or argue...

There is some stuff worth arguing...

Like for example how sacrificing one of my needs is unhealthy. Hey, I'm not happy about it either, but the bottom line is that if that one need is so poignant that not having it filled is going to lead me to burn out, I better have a serious look at that need. The fact of the matter is that I have needs that far outweigh physical intimacy. It may have taken me a while to realize it, (there, I've said it) some things are just more important.

And you said something I've got to disagree with, was never a legal and binding one anyway, never formalised. Your child is a common thread, but does not bind you in any way as husband and wife. And at the risk of offending you, I will mention that words mirroring these sentiments were uttered to me both by my OW (of 5 yrs ago) and Dylan's OP. Not to mention others who I will not mention. The truth is that our vows were made in front of God and I made them with all my heart and soul. No ceremony could have carried more spiritual or emotional weight with me. And no paper could make it any more binding.

As for separate living arrangements, I really don't see how that would help. I really don't. And if it comes to pass that Dylan is unwilling or unable to respect my boundries, or if I am unwilling or unable to respect hers, then so be it. But unless that unfortunate scenario develops, I am committed to rebuilding a relationship with her.

And guess what. I'm not living in limbo anymore. I feel like I know what I have to do. Regardless of her or anyone else. I have my course laid out for me and it's laid out FOR me, BY me.

walkingoneggs,

Thank you for your concern. I have to agree with you about the 'enabling'. (see, written proof that I can agree) I've certainly tried to improve on that. And I see how patience can lead to some pretty serious problems. Sometimes you just gotta say, 'enough is enough'.

I'm really glad she's here too. And yes, there are boundries, on both sides. And as long as she and I can respect each others boundries, harm will not be an issue. We are talking about following an MB plan and 'the rule of protection' will be a major fixture.

My personal time frame is 8 years in Plan A. If I haven't won her back by then, I might just give up and most likely not bother with Plan B.

I'm not expected to remain celibate. As far as Dylan is concerned, our marriage is not going to be saved and I should move on. I choose to be celibate because a)I think it would hurt her if I wasn't, b) I think it's the morally correct thing to do, c) I have enough things to deal with without getting distracted by a girlfriend. Oh, and d)I'm trying to save my marriage.

Please understand, she is treating me very well. In so many ways. My love bank is hovering steadily, waiting to see if she is serious about the plan we talked about. I don't feel rejection from her, because I am respecting her boundries and not approaching her in ways she's uncomfortable with.

I will probably check her email once is a while. I certainly am not going to let myself get obsessed with snooping. Like I posted before, the truth always comes out.

I think about protecting myself alot. And to a certain extent, I will. But I'm also trying hard to get a bead on creating an environment where protection isn't neccesary.

Anyway, thanks for your replies.

ttfn,

dewt

Hi Dewt,

I can certainly appreciate the notion of coming here to seek sympathy, empathy and yes, even a good arguement. Now, you asked why it is that I said that you are back at square 1. Although your living situation has changed other things have not, or so it seems. I invite you to re-read some of your former posts for the answer to that one. You continue to close your eyes to the situation in front of you. You have been lied to, KNOW that Dylan continues to have her affair, have no guarantees that there is NC nor a commitment on her part to work on your marriage, and you have allowed her to come live with you and Mini. Wake up DEWT, it's not only about you & her, it's mostly about Mini, and you have allowed for a potentially longterm disasterous situation which will affect Mini tenfold should things not turn out between you.
Now, about your vows, touchee ! You score one point but that's about it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If your vows carried weight and were done before God, fine. BUT, read the section I wrote to you in it's context Dewt instead of disecting it, you may find something there worth thinking about...
About separate living arrangements, you said that you really don't see how that could help. You are right, because as long as she is in your home, you have total control over her comings & goings, and if not control, then at least you have your eye on her. Again, it's not about Mini, it's totally about you & you really can't consider the harm you may be doing to Mini.
So, Now I invite you to share with us how you are NOT in limbo anymore. Are you in recovery? Do you have a commitment toward fixing your marriage on Dylan's part? Do you have a solid indication that she has chosen you over & above OP?

Peace,
Odyssey

I know my wife had an affair.

Not HAD - is HAVING. She's still actively involved with the OW and has told you she has no interest in quitting.

And I also know that whether I intercept any emails or not, part of her brain is still having an affair.

No Dewt - all of her is having an affair.

Some people 'round these here parts call that 'withdrawal from the OP'. Dylan [i]has agreed to no contact. I was warned on these very boards to expect some backsliding, and to not get discouraged when it happened.[/i]

Uhhh...withdrawl doesn't happen until she's agreed to seperate from the OP. She's only agreed to come stay to help take care of Mini - and she's toying with the outrageous idea of living in celebacy - yet she's sneaking around your back and gives ABSOLUTELY NO indication that she's interested in reconcilation or ending her affair. She's not in withdrawl, Dewt. This is not backsliding - with the exception of for you. You seem to be sliding back in to denial.

I also know that there's a lot of resentment on her part towards me.

Typical of a WS still ACTIVELY in an affair.

That's part of what makes an affair possible. It's certainly part of what made this affair possible. And I'll tell y'all something else... there are reasons for that resentment. Valid reasons. And no, she may not ever come back from that point.

Right, she may never choose to try to repair the marriage - she's as much said so. And yes, you DEFINATLY have a part in making this affair possible, from what I've read.

try to point out one issue in my threads that hasn't ever come up here before...

Not that it hasn't come up before, but I've never seen anyone else think they were honestly going to live a life of celibacy for the 'good' of their child.

Like for example how sacrificing one of my needs is unhealthy.

It won't work, Dewt - it won't. And if you truly believe it will then PLEASE take another look at how well you've managed to 'sacrifice' that need in the past?? More denial....

As for separate living arrangements, I really don't see how that would help.

Help what?? YOU - your marriage - your child - WHAT will living seperately not help??

I am committed to rebuilding a relationship with her.

Bingo - Dewt - admit it atleast to YOURSELF, this is your ultimate goal and reason for having her there. She knows this and will fight it with all her being. It's my opinion that your BEST shot at this is to LET HER GO and become the best person you can be. If she fixes her side of the issues, maybe she'll find a way back. If she doesn't, then it WOULDN'T WORK ANYWAY.

I have my course laid out for me and it's laid out FOR me, BY me.

And you don't think any of this is about control? DEWT, wake up. It doesn't work this way - and it will not work for you this way.

My personal time frame is 8 years in Plan A. If I haven't won her back by then, I might just give up and most likely not bother with Plan B.

This is NOT in accordance to MB. I don't believe for a moment that you will pull this off for 8 years, Dewt. You are fooling yourself man.

I will probably check her email once is a while.

Like a parent would their teenager. And will you ground her if she's bad??

But I'm also trying hard to get a bead on creating an environment where protection isn't neccesary.

You won't find that in this world, Dewt - protection is always necessary.

This whole thing, Dewt, is completely transparent. I wish you could see that - because your W can, and it will not work.

Ok, let's suppose for a moment that I do not argue with you...

What do you suggest I do?

dewt

Dewt, Dewt, Dewt, Dewt, Dewt!!! Hey that's got some good rythm...Kinda like Lou Reed's Take a Walk on the Wild Side...
I for one, have been not only suggesting things to you, but actually telling you what to do. So have others. I think it's up to you to make some thoughtful analysis of what poeple have responded to you here. I can tell by your writing that you are a very intelligent person and I'm sure that if you try to see things objectively, you will come up with your own answers. I think it is very simple and maybe I can help kick-start this off by reflecting some things back to you.
1. Mini should always be your priority over and above your own needs.
2. Dylan is actively in an affair and you are separated.
3. Dylan is presently not interested in reconciling your marriage.
4. Poeple cannot realistically live their whole lives without their needs being met. You are vulnerable to having another affair eventually and so the cycle will continue.

Dewt, you said that you have boundaries, what are they cuz it seams to me that you are in denial about this. If you did, the clearest boundary would be that Dylan cannot share your living space soley because of her need to be with Mini and for Mini's immediate need to be with his mom. You should be figuring into this equation not only from the point of view of you needing to have control of the situation and your need for Dylan to be in your life, but also from the point of view that Dylan should also want to have YOU in her life as her spouse.

The question: What to you think any clearly thinking person would do given the aforementionned points. It takes two to tango and if you don't have a partner for the dance... then you ain't tangoin' Dewt !!!

Be good to yourself,
Peace,
Odyssey

Yup - what he/she said.

I think that having Dylan help with mini in your time of crisis was a GOOD IDEA - however it changed from her coming to HELP you, to her all of a sudden living there and you forming a plan to work on your marraige. THAT is not what was suggested to you, Dewt. It was suggested that your son needed his mom, that she had been avoiding responsibility for some time with excuses for not seeing him, and that she needed to help out. You seized that opportunity for YOUR OWN agenda - one that she has not agreed to. I know, you said she's SAID she will agree to no contact and that she SAID that she will agree to a life of celebacy - but remember Dewt - not words, actions. Her actions say quite another thing.

8 years?? That is completely unrealistic. I dare you to find a reputable counselor, one that takes stock in the MB principles, to agree with that plan. So what if you CAN'T make it 8 years - I mean, realistically, how can you (after a mere week) fathom what 8 YEARS of Plan A would be like? What about mini then? How much MORE confused and hurt is he? And whose fault will it be? Well - Dylans of course! Nevermind that his dad was the one who concocted the ridiculous plan even though he was NUMEROUSLY forwarned.

Your wife came to help out with Mini - next thing you know you're trying to hold her hand and trying to subtly undermine her current position. YOU CANNOT FORCE DYLAN TO END HER AFFAIR - and you CANNOT FORCE DYLAN TO WORK ON THE MARRIAGE. Love is a CHOICE and one that CANNOT and WILL NOT be made when being held emotionally hostage.

How loving is this situation REALLY to Dylan and to Mini Dewt? How loving would YOU feel towards your prison guard if you felt you were being held emotionally captive due to obligations to your child? You are TOTALLY feeding her victim/villian WS mentality. And then you write here in utter shock at the things she's saying???!!!

WAKE UP!! Let her GO - but hold her responsible for making sure that Mini gets the time and attention he needs - and OF COURSE protect him from further emotional harm.

What to do?? You HAVE been told that many times over.

Let Dylan go - quit pursuing her like an obsessive fan.

SEPERATE but make there are TRUE plans in the works for custody and visitation. Dylan needs to pull her share and her son NEEDS her attention.

Get COUNSELING for ALL OF YOU!! Not MARITAL, but individual.

Work on YOU, Focus on YOU and Mini - detach and let Dylan make her OWN decisions and choose her own path. Maybe she really IS done with the marriage - or maybe she can find her way back - but you can't FORCE or COERCE her back.

Dewt & Hope4thefuture...

Just for future reference: last time I checked i was still a woman and as far as I am conciously aware I believe I'd like to stay one... ;)definitely a she. Divorced, two kids, presently in a serious relationship and loving life. The Kids are doing better than they ever have before in their lives. Have an excellent parenting relationship with the ex.

Peace,
Odyssey

Dewt:

You have given me plenty of great advice, and you have gotten on my case plenty of times, and I wish I could give better advice than all that which you have already received, and sometimes I am amazed when I read posts here where our MB friends suggest --- insist? --- that allthat could be done, has been done, and it's time to move on. But guess what, my friend, that is the situation you are in. It is ugly. It is unpleasant. I wish it didn't happen to you. But YOU deservea happy life. And saying you are willing to sacrifice your own happiness, etc. so your child can see mommy and daddy having dinner together is a cop-out.

Geez, what year is this? No one's life is HAPPY DAYS. Howard and Marion rarly exist and there is no Fonzie upstairs. Lots of kids grow up without the "perfect family" and they turn out just fine.

Your life is waiting for you. Your time is valuable. Don't waste any more time or energy on someone whose eyes don't light up when you enter a room. Dylan is making some very bad decisions. You tried to help her. She doesn't want your help. Let her know you want her out, and that when she is around your child she is obligated to set the RIGHT example.

No one likes to say good-bye to someone they loved and cared about for so long; but Dylan is letting herself drown too far beneath the surface of the water. If you keep reaching down you're bound to fall in yourself.

Good luck.

wk

I am really confused.

Is anyone going to come in here with any marriage building advice?

Not that I don't appreciate the responses I do get, but the fact of the matter is, I want this marriage to work. If there is no way to instantly add water and have things progress the way I want them to, I'm willing to keep working at it. If I have to make some sacrifices and personal changes, I'm ready, willing and able to work on that too.

I am willing to do whatever it takes to make this work. I've messed up pretty bad along the way and perhaps even ruined any small chance that I did have. I accept that. I own up to and take responsibilities for my mistakes.

It's pretty clear that most of the posters here at MB have pretty much written me off. I guess I deserve it. I guess I deserve to have Dylan write me off to.

Fine.

Regardless, I intend to follow this through. Last time I lost faith and acted on those feelings, it turned out to be a very bad choice. Oh yeah, the time before that too. Same thing.

So forgive me if I feel like I have to stay true to what I believe in. And I believe that my son deserves two active parents. I believe that there is a deep and profound love between Dylan and I and that one way or the other, things will work out. Regardless of whether or not she is still having her affair, regardless of whether or not she ever decides to touch me again, I will not give up hope. I will not turn my back on my faith.

I may end up torn inside out, turned upside down and left heartbroken in the gutter. That's a chance I have to accept, but it's a chance I'm willing to take.

I love her. I love my son. I love me. I will not turn my back on any of those things. I will not again lose sight of the bigger picture and put my own selfish needs/desires above those that are so profoundly important to me.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the general tone of advice I'm getting here is to kick her out and move on.

Sorry. It's not going to happen. Not without some drastic betrayal on her end.

Is it going to be easy? No. I don't expect it to be, but hopefully with the two of us working on a plan, some positive steps can be taken. Until I am really convinced that there is no way back from this, I will not stop trying. And if trying includes putting some of my needs on the back burner, so be it. God knows that being a slave to my selfish desires has brought me nothing but problems. It seems clear to me that it's about time I took a higher road and stuck to it.

She is not a hostage here. I am not pressuring her into anything. Any agreements we make, WE make. And if there's backsliding, well I'll have to deal with it. It would be perhaps much easier to wave a big blame stick at her if I was perfect myself.

I'm going to end this post before I start blabbering or arguing...

dewt