ok - in a nutshell.... ok a really LARGE walnut shell

I am the WS in an EA that sprung from a 18 month platonic friendship with OM. Sorta snuck up on both of us. Obviously not a great situation.

My problem is, I have made a number of poor choices where relationships are concerned. My track record speaks for itself. Hindsight is 20-20, of course, but I have looked back at my choices and determined the following:

#1 - DUH he was an abuser, knew it before marrying, and thought I would change him. HA! Only conceivable reason I would do over if I had the chance... two beautiful children that I love with all my heart.

#2 - This one, if given the chance, I would marry this man all over again, but do it right and use our stubbornness for the good of our marriage instead of its destruction.

#3 - current H - would not do over. Period. Would not have happened at all. Am I clear on this? BUT...

now here I am with papers drawn and in L office, not filing them largely because of financial concerns that restrict my ability to move out until February. When this was determined, I decided to stay here and make the best of it so we would not be living in a war zone. I like my H but I am largely repulsed by his habits and general behavior. I really don't know if I want to work on my marriage, because it is a colossal mismatch. I don't want to live a lie or to hurt my S further. I am an intelligent educated woman, and realize my judgment is easily clouded by presence of OM. Please know that I had determined that this marriage was a mismatch long before OM entered my life.

So, I am stuck with deciding if I need to rectify the original poor choice, period, extrinsic factors aside. There are many issues in this M; gross financial irresponsibility, mental illness, self-inflicted unemployment, mistreatment of children (due to ignorance) and depending what and whom you believe, even an incident of spousal rape. Yet overall, he really is a good guy who loves me fiercely. Weird but true. With respect to all BS's out there (and I've been a BS), he deserves better than I am giving him, nonetheless, simply out of respect for the marriage.

Yes I know that any R I tried to pursue with OM at this point would be doomed, and he knows it too. I do not want the hope of a new relationship to determine my choices now, nor do either of us want to advance anything in the current circumstance. We have discussed that and very conscoiusly decided not to act on any feelings that may be present now because they are not to be trusted. We have no desire to put ourselves in that situation. NC is the appropriate thing, of course, but 100% NC is not possible due to mutual commitments we cannot and/or are unwilling to break - for reasons other than each other.

My faith in God is strong, and I want to do what is right. I have been pursuing my spiritual side and liking my progress thus far. But what is "right" and what is right for ME and for my children may not be one and the same. I made vows, and believed in them, but when is it time to cut your losses?

FWSs please help me! This situation is making me crazy! Feel free to deliver a reality check if it sounds like my head is screwed on all wrong.

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

SS,

This is marriagebuilders, not marriage wreckers. You are in the wrong place if you think you are going to get support in dumping your H. Adultery is NEVER the right thing to do under any circumstances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I really don't want to work on my marriage, because it is a colossal mismatch. I don't want to live a lie or to hurt my S further. I realize my judgment is easily clouded by presence of OM,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since you don't want to live a lie, I take it you have told your H about your affair? What was his response? Is he willing to continue in the marriage under the circumstances?

Most men aren't too keen on taking on a woman with baggage and 2 kids in the first place so I find it surprising he would tolerate an affair on top of the other baggage.

What was his response to your affair?

Hi MelodyLane

Having cruised these boards, I knew I would hear from you and that you would call me on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have edited my post to provide more information since you answered me. Please re-read and maybe you'll see a different light. I am on MB boards not to get support for ditching him, but to hear from other WS's who have been in my shoes and can offer me their stories of hope. Maybe all is not lost, but from where I sit at this time, it looks pretty bleak.

As for your question, yes H knows about EA. I have not hidden anything, and H is aware of all contact I have with OM. I have admitted all. But please don't make assumptions or judge me. Just because he is willing to take the "baggage" of my 2 kids does not necessarily make him a prince. I am not judging anyone, because that is up to God to do. In fairness, he loves my kids as his own, and that means a lot to me, and is in large part the reason I have not left.

I have made a concsious effort to banish negative thoughts about H from my mind as soon as they appear. I am trying hard not to LB, and have begun work on the various worksheets this site offers. I do not want to take my kids through a divorce if it can be avoided. And in case you wondered, we have been to MC, and both have received IC. It took a lot to get me to this point. MB site is not a first step by any means.

<small>[ June 27, 2004, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

SS, yes, I see you did some major altering there that completely changed the story. I also see you have probably been around here for awhile as you have a good grasp of the lingo. I will leave you to the good hands of the other WSes and move on. Good luck.

bump

bump

What's wrong with trying to make your marriage work? With all due respect, it sounds like if you dump him for this new guy, it may happen again down the road. Draw the line in the sand...the grass is not always greener, it rarely is.

Singing for Supper,

I'm sorry for your pain. I understand it must be very difficult (if not impossible) to repair a M or to work on a M if the spouse is abusive. IMO abuse can’t be tolerated…especially if it's of a physical nature. Is there any remorse from your H about his abusive behavior of the past and is he willing to change it and make amends? Is he still abusive to you and/or your children?

There is no guarantee that your M will work. (Sorry, MBers) Some Ms are doomed.

But, right now, you are going nowhere fast. As long as OM is in the picture, you are spinning your wheels.

Why? You have to determine whether the M will work for you. As long as you are getting your needs fulfilled OUTSIDE of the M, you will never know if they can all be fulfilled WITHIN the M.

Work on your M. Give it 100% of your effort. If it then doesn't work out, walk out knowing you gave it your best shot.

You said, "NC is the appropriate thing, of course, but 100% NC is not possible due to..." Bullsh*t. That is an excuse. It is possible. Set your priorities.

And, while on the topic of cop-outs, what is this "depending what and whom you believe, even an incident of spousal rape." Non-consensual sex is rape. It either was or it wasn't, and you are the only one who knows that.

If I read this right, this is your 3rd M. Doesn't that indicate that YOU have the problem, and not your Hs? Shouldn't you be in IC?

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

HI Suzette

Thanks for the empathy. But I just want to be clear that this H is NOT abusive to me, that was the first H. The only abuse in this M is abuse of trust. The incident of spousal rape which was a one time thing, will never occur again. Although he still doesn't see it as rape, he knows that I feel that way and that he shattered what little trust I had in him that night.

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

HI Jimmy Mac
thanks for your reply. For clarity...

QUOTE
"...what is this "depending what and whom you believe, even an incident of spousal rape." Non-consensual sex is rape. It either was or it wasn't, and you are the only one who knows that."
I believe it was rape, because I was not in any condition to consent. H knew that I had taken a strong sleeping pill and knew what it does to me, in terms of inability to think, function, or remember anything after taking it. He states he asked me many times during the act if I was sure I was awake, and therefore he was not doing anything wrong. DUH If he had to ask and he knew "it could have been anybody" - his words - he knew he was doing wrong. He cannot accept this. I said "depending what or whom you believe" because of that and because some stupidly believe that rape in marriage does not exist.

"If I read this right, this is your 3rd M. Doesn't that indicate that YOU have the problem, and not your Hs? Shouldn't you be in IC? "

In response to this, my being married three times does not mean I am totally at fault, and it is very narrow and judgmental to assume that Hs have no responsibility here. I WAS ABUSED the first time. That is NOT my fault. Rather, my fault lies in the poor choice I made in marrying him, which I did correct eventually. My children are grateful, as they see what and who their father is, without my input.
You'll notice I make no excuses about number 2 - it was a terrible mistake to D and is my biggest regret. Lots of LBs and no communication.

As for IC - if you read, you would know that I have been there and am there. So is H, and MC went on for months but not currently due to funding. We are working on ourselves first as MC suggested.

I never claimed to not have issues, nor am I trying to rationalize my continued contact with OM. It is not BS that I cannot do NC. Not unless he or I want to default on contractual obligation and be unable to feed or house ourselves. As I am the sole support of my family and have been through most of my M due to H unwillingness to work I think that my priorities are what they have to be. As it is I work 2-3 jobs just to pay the bills, since H won't. But wait - I have the problem here, not H, according to your view.

Thank you for your response, I will take to heart the first point about spinning wheels. I do realize that. It is the spinning that is making me crazy. The question how to stop that given that quasi-NC with OM is the best I can do for the time being.

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

Singing,

I like my H but I am largely repulsed by his habits and general behavior.

Are you able to discuss this with your H?
Have you tried?
How did it go?

Please know that I had determined that this marriage was a mismatch long before OM entered my life.

What did you do about it, once you had determined it was a mismatch?

100% NC is not possible due to mutual commitments we cannot and/or are unwilling to break

Unacceptable. 100% NC is not only possible, it is imperative. You know this.

I'm interested in hearing your replies to each of my questions. My gut reaction, though - you've been M 6 years so it's not all that bad. You've had problems and not addressed them successfully - in this and in previous Ms. Your A with OM is ongoing (because you won't do NC) so you say typical WS things like "My H deserves better" and "We are a colossal mismatch."

I, too, am an intelligent, educated woman. That's not worth a hill of beans when you're talking about affairs, addiction, and withdrawals.

You need 100% NC with OM.
You need to be completely accountable to your H - he needs access to ALL aspects of your life. All passwords, all financial records, answers to all his questions.
The both of you need to plan a path of reconciliation (MC, working through Surviving An Affair, whatever).

It is hard. I *know* it is hard.

SfS

I am a FWS.

Things are not fixed with my H, our M is IN trouble and it's my fault. No excuses.

All those reasons - except the trust in your H - you say are stopping you from working on your M are excuses. There may very genuine reasons beneath them that cause you to feel that way, but they are excuses.
You say there is no abuse, he loves the children, they love him I presume too??
SFS you sound like a smart woman, how do you expect to examine the M and your H in the fair light of day when you are involved with the OM still? That just is not possible.

Obviously there are issues but how on earth can you work through them, confront them, like this?
I'm not pretending it will be easy, I know that, I'm still looking at ways to fight for my M and my H. If your H is trying to change, wants to change, can't you help him and change with him?

I know to my eternal shame that not all M can survive and grow in love, I may lose, you may lose, but if you don't try EVERYTHING giving it all you have how can you ever know what can be.

I hope this has not come across as an attack, thats the last thing I would want to do, I just hope it can help you work through what is right for you.

But if you need to, vent away like I do here, ask advice, plenty of very experienced people here willing to help.

Be well.

CL

Hi Turtle

Thank you for your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I like my H but I am largely repulsed by his habits and general behavior.

Are you able to discuss this with your H?
Have you tried?
How did it go?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I have discussed this with H, but it changes nothing. He simply sees nothing wrong with his sophomoric behavior. As for those habits which disgust me, no chance of them changing. He just says "oh well!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please know that I had determined that this marriage was a mismatch long before OM entered my life.

What did you do about it, once you had determined it was a mismatch?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I, being a great communicator, buried my head in the sand for a long time. And I have tried to cultivate interest in what he likes , and have asked for the same. Neither is working well. We cannot even think of a mutual new interest to develop. My eventual disclosure of my feelings of poor match was met with "yeah we should do something about that" and then nothing. He has lived in denial of his problems for a long time, and is now seeing the light in a great many ways. But that does not change who he is, just makes him more aware of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You need 100% NC with OM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read last 2 paragraphs above your original post. It is simply not possible unless we go hungry and homeless. Not an option. OM and I can limit contact tremendously but not eliminate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you say typical WS things like "My H deserves better" and "We are a colossal mismatch."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">being typical does not make them any less true. Of course he deserves better. So have I, for a long time. Not justification, because there is none for an A (EA or PA). Simply the truth.

I do find it curious that you infer that because we've only been married 6 yrs that it can't be that bad. I was married to an abuser and it was that bad in 6 minutes. So, time really means nothing in terms of how things can go bad and how fast, particularly when we ignore the glaring red flags before entering a marriage. Maybe you meant that 6yrs is a good length of time so I should have cut and run ages ago if it's that bad. There's this thing called marriage vows that I truly believe in. Better/worse richer/poorer, sickness/health. We have worse, poorer, and sickness all at once. And we have dealt poorly with it. I have been the stand-up one forever while he refused to take responsibility. I got tired. Felt used. Saw no way out due to the tremendous debt his attitudes had created. Very daunting, all of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he needs access to ALL aspects of your life; all passwords, all financial records , answers to all his questions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Giving him access to that stuff created debt to the tune of nearly six figures. Exactly how stupid am I required to be and for how long? As far as answers to his questions, no problem. That I can do and have done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I, too, am an intelligent, educated woman. That's not worth a hill of beans when you're talking about affairs, addiction, and withdrawals.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Touche. You are right. I did not mean to imply that I was above any of it (clearly I am not)

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Singing for Supper ]</small>

It seems that you have already given up on your marriage. When I was in a similar situation, I think I lied, to myself especially, about how bad my marriage "actually" was. Small situations can become much worse with the presence of another man.

You are in a deep dillema. If you are very certain that you are not willing to work out the marriage, my feeling is that you should forget about other relationships...period. At least until you have your head together properly.

I believe in the saying that you must live with yourself and be happy, before you can hope to be happy with another person.

Sorry if this sounds hard..........

You are using OM as a crutch to make your M livable. Until you "throw away" OM, you can never find out if you and your H can make it as a couple.

The question is whether you can meet your needs in the M. A person has a whole bunch of needs. There is a questionaire on this site to help you identify your needs.

If you do the questionaire, you will find that your H is meeting a lot of your needs.

For whatever reason, all of your needs aren't being met in the M. Maybe H changed, maybe you changed...whatever, it doesn't really matter. So, there are some needs that OM is fulfilling for you. And, it isn't a very long list. It could be some very important needs, but OM really isn't doing as much as you think he is. Until you try to have H fulfill those needs, you will never know if H can do it.

At this time, (1) find out what you are getting from OM by doing some reflection on yourself and life; (2) stop seeing OM completely; and (3) attempt to have H meet the needs that OM was giving you.

The point about the failed Ms is simply this: You may have a problem with long term interactions with any person. If three men have failed to make you happy in a M, you have to question "Why?"

The fact is that you and your H change every day of your life. So, it isn't a real surprise that what you want out of a M constantly changes. M is about how you and H deal with these changes to create a fulfilling and nuturing long term relationship.

It isn't all your fault. The point is that you can't change someone else. You can only change yourself. So, focusing on what Bill did wrong and Fred did wrong and Sam did wrong is focusing on the wrong people, because you have little control over what they do. You can, however, change what you do. Often, that means learning about your needs and then learning how to communicate those needs to H.

HI PianoBug

Yeah. On some level I am aware that I am making mountains out of molehills on a few things that don't deserve that kind of importance in the grand scheme of things. So easy to do when you feel hopeless.

Like I said, I and OM have a very strong resolve as to not advancing this R until I am long clear of this M, if even then, and if it ever comes to a D at all. We like and respect each other too much to fool ourselves into thinking the grass is greener; we know not to trust whatever feelings may be present. We were friends for a long time before anything even touched onto an EA. We realize that I am unconsciously comparing H to OM all the time and H can't hope to measure up if OM is still around.

My M is a very real thing that deserves my full attention and my full commitment to making it better if at all possible. OM believes this as well, as he is a former BS and has been very supportive of my H through all this. Sounds really weird I know. They have met and talked briefly, without too much anger on Hs part. H is truly trying to understand and to change within himself. In MC, the C asked what I thought he could do to significantly raise himself in my eyes - or increase his Love Bank Deposits (not her words, but same idea). I could not then, or now think of a thing that would not require him to be a person that radically different from himself. Is it even fair for me to ask that of him? She asked me what I could do to build from my end, in terms of giving him little boosts and trying to deposit into his LoveBank as well. I sincerely tried, but I was bankrupt after so many years of being devalued, disregarded, deceived, unsupported (financially and otherwise) and disrespected.

*sigh* I can't wait to see my IC. My brain is mush.

SFS,

I was pretty blunt with you. I appreciate your response and your candor. I was pretty much expecting a defensive angry response and you pleasantly surprised me. Thank you.

Yes I have discussed this with H, but it changes nothing. He simply sees nothing wrong with his sophomoric behavior. As for those habits which disgust me, no chance of them changing. He just says "oh well!"

Well, what's wrong with it is that it bothers you. A lot of people, myself included, truly don't realize what a big impact the little things can have over time.

Does your H want to be M to you?
Would he read "Surviving an Affair" with you, and answer all the questions?
What *is* he willing to do to help this M?

I presume you are only using terms like "sophomoric behavior" here, to vent your frustration. I hope you don't take such a disrespectful attitude with your H. (Please tell me I'm right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> )

I, being a great communicator, buried my head in the sand for a long time.

I have a degree in communications from the same college <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I have learned that if I say something, H might ignore me. That's no worse than keeping silent. H might get angry with me. I've learned that his anger won't destroy me, and I can respectfully ask him to discontinue the LB portion of his reaction. There's a third possibility, too - H might hear me and do something beneficial for our M.

It's always better to say something.

My eventual disclosure of my feelings of poor match was met with "yeah we should do something about that" and then nothing.

I'm finding in my own M that I have to be the one to lead. It's not that important to my H, or maybe he's more content than I, I'm not sure. But *someone* has to lead. I think the two of you could benefit greatly from reading SAA to one another and answering the questions.

He has lived in denial of his problems for a long time, and is now seeing the light in a great many ways. But that does not change who he is, just makes him more aware of it.

This is such a big step though! Do you tell him when you notice a change, and let him know how much you appreciate his efforts?
What are his top 2 or 3 ENs? If one of them is admiration, you have a gold mine here.

OM and I can limit contact tremendously but not eliminate it.

Would your H be willing to take on the interaction with OM? That way you could fulfill your contractual obligations but *you* wouldn't have to interact with him. I don't know many H's that would do this, but you said they've talked amicably in the past so maybe it's an option.

<you say typical WS things like "My H deserves better" and "We are a colossal mismatch.">

being typical does not make them any less true.

Being typical does not mean you feel them any less truly or intensely. I think your feelings are clouded right now, though, and it is hard for you to see what is true and what isn't true. I realize this is a bold statement for me to make, and I would not make it except for the fact that I have walked in your shoes, as have others here, and we have felt the same "truths" which later faded. I would wager that after 6 to 8 months of NC with OM, and truly working on your M (both you and your H), you would find that you can be a pretty good W to your H, and that perhaps there is more middle ground between the two of you than you suspected.

Maybe you meant that 6yrs is a good length of time so I should have cut and run ages ago if it's that bad.

Yes, this is what I was inferring. My apologies for not making my point more clearly.

There's this thing called marriage vows that I truly believe in. Better/worse richer/poorer, sickness/health.

What are you willing to do to give this M a real shot?

Giving him access to that stuff created debt to the tune of nearly six figures.

I don't mean access to spend your money; I mean the ability to view the finances, so he is reassured that you're not going out to nice dinners with OM, or buying him gifts, or things like that. Information that is hidden and withheld destroys trust. Secrets have no place in a marriage, especially a marriage that has endured an affair.

As far as answers to his questions, no problem. That I can do and have done.
Excellent! Keep doing this. As you are no doubt aware, he may need the same question answered again and again. It helps him gain a sense of trust and security.

I think your situation boils down to three things:

1. How can you creatively avoid contact with OM?
Can you have someone else work with him, can you buy him out, can he buy you out, what other options might there be? Can you limit your contact to only times when your H is present?

2. What is your H willing to do to improve the M?

3. What are you willing to do to improve it?

<small>[ June 28, 2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

Im a Ws and reading this post angered me. How do you possibly think youll be able to make your M work, that is if you truly want it to work with OM STILL in the picture. Theres NO WAY in H3LL that you can make it work with OM still there. You HAVE to cut all ties to the OM, NO CONTACT! Another thing, if you really DONT want your M to work, then why in the heck are you here at MB? Correct me if Im worng, but isnt MB for Ws and BS who are trying to move past things and make things in their M work? I know thats the reason Im here. I want desprately for my M to work, even after all the years of abuse.

If you really and truely want your M to work, and youre afraid H will be abusive again, tell him you want him to take meds. My H has and the abuse has stopped. That doesnt mean he still isnt hurt and anrgy for what I did. I know I said this before, but Ill say it again, Ill say it till Im BLUE in the face, forget OM, hes the reason youre in this perdicament now. I gurantee as soon as hes out of the picture youll see things more clearly. Sounds to me like youre in a "Fog". Quit using OM as a crutch thinking its going to help out your M, its NOT, its only giong to get worse from here if hes still there.