A few things...

Spoke with OM's W on the phone for several hours last night. As a SAHM she fears that she has to file soon, because OM is strongarming her about $, witholding needed funds and threatening to sell her car, which is in his name.

If she can get the MB login process figured out she may appear here soon. She logs in successfully, but her posts don't come through. Does she need cookies on, maybe?

Last night we agreed to do everything we can to make our Ds take as long as possible, without really telling our spouses that's what we're doing. But nothing has been filed by anyone yet. I will not file.

I think part of the reason the sparrow seems so guilt-free right now was because I told her I've decided I'm going to forgive her. I think I went too far in saying this.

Another dilemma. I'm going to record a few songs for the sparrow as an anniversary gift. OM's W tells me he is probably showering sparrow with gifts right now, and he made her a painting when the A was starting. I need to outdo him, and I can, not in quantity but in quality, I'm sure of it. If I go into plan B before then, I can't give her this gift. My anniv. is on 29 July. If I need to plan B I don't know if I can wait until the end of this month.

GC

Ok - a few things.

#1 - don't second guess what's done, ok? It's already done, you can't undo it, and worrying over it just takes energy that you need elsewhere. I'm telling you from inside experience - there is very little that you can do that would be 100% right or 100% wrong. If I remember correctly you said you PLAN on forgiving her - and that's true - so don't sweat it. If anything - it reiterates that what she's doing is something big enough and wrong enough that forgiveness is involved.

#2 - You COULD put the CD together and give it to her early - but the impact would be stronger on the actual date. I remember going through our anniversary when we were apart and going through divorce - no matter how much she may act like it's just a day, it will be painful. I'm not sure what to tell you as to what to do on that.

#3 - That's really odd about OMW not being able to post! I'd like to help her if there's any way I can. I'm a computer geek, so maybe we could go through some settings. I'm sure she needs us - and it would help out BOTH of your situations if she could work the other side more adventageously. Let me know if there's some way to contact her via email or something.

I wasn't analyzing the forgiveness stuff for my benefit really. I thought it might be useful to other BS to have a discussion about just how far one should go in plan A to be kind and compassionate and forgiving. I seem to have made myself such a positive force to my WW that she thinks she's my platonic friend.

Maybe my anniversary makes good sense as a plan B date. But that's four weeks away! I know I can avoid LBing until then, at least I'm pretty sure I can. But lots can happen in four weeks, and now seems a good time to plan B. As somebody said the other day, I've left a good taste in her mouth at the moment.

Thank you so much H4F.

GC

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

I'm likely going to take some 2x4's for this, but I'm just the messenger... Just got off the phone with SH, and he recommends that those of us without kids NEVER go to Plan B. It just makes it easy for the WS to make a clean break. Read my journal entry for more info on my session; I just wanted to point this out here, too.

Basically, according to SH, it's Plan A or bust.

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: phantom8808 ]</small>

Maybe you could pout the CD in with the plan B letter.

As far as going to far with telling her you forgave her, I don't think so. And husbands are supposed to be friends as well as lovers and you have shown her that you can be a friend. But you cannot be a part of her affair, which is what she wants you to be now, with the email telling you of her plans with OM. She will take a fall when she doesn't have you anymore Gray, and then OM will not seem so desirable. I could be wrong but I really don't think so.

Weaver

Phantom - Did SH say why plan B is no good without kids?

He basically said "out of sight, out of mind". I guess if there are kids in the picture, that can be a pretty powerful force encouraging the WS to come back. But without kids, it's just very easy to make a clean break.

I'm not sure I agree with it, to be perfectly honest...

Phantom, that truly surprises me. In the story of "Jon, Sue, and Greg" (I think that's right) in SAA, Jon goes to plan B and there are children.

Weaver, I hope you're right, that she will feel some kind of loss when I disappear. Regardless, right now I'm sorta stuck if I don't do it soon. Hard to complain about chatty talk of the A without whining and lowering my stock, hard to endure it and stay sane (and impossible to not be a doormat) if I stay in contact and say nothing.

I'm calling the Harleys. I'm freaked by the idea of plan B. I was disappointed by how little discussion there was in SAA about making this decision. Pretty much says, pick your time limit and then do it when that limit is reached.

GC

Oops, got it backwards. I see, avoid plan B if you DON'T have kids. That makes more sense. Wow. Confirms my concerns. Outta sight, outta mind. Still, that surprises me.

Phantom, did you go into it any further? I'll read your journal again in a sec in case you already covered it there.

GC

Well, keep in mind that SH is actually Harley's son. The father wrote the book, so I suppose they may have differing opinions on some things. Based on what I've read on the boards, I think Plan B is appropriate with or without kids, because it's all about the BS, and helping them preserve love for the WS.

Losing love for the WS is a risk (as I'm experiencing) whether or not there are kids in the picture.

I didn't really go into it too much, as by that point, we had already decided on the strategy to try to get WW to agree on going to the seminar. If that fails, then I may ask more about it.

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: phantom8808 ]</small>

And to get back to the subject of this thread... I also recently told my wife that I forgive her, and that I hope she can forgive me for my role in creating an unhappy marriage for her. I wanted her to know that she should feel safe coming home.

Right or wrong? I have no idea, but it's done now.

No plan B without kids? Damn, I have been in plan be for weeks now. Should I switch to plan A now? If in plan A do I call her? I never call her or contact her in any way now.

Well, there it is. I have a feeling I'd get the same advice as you, Phantom. Our situations are similar. Sparrow's affair is a little newer, and there's no age difference, and no weird money stuff yet. I should perhaps call SH at least one time though. No plan B; golly. I can say this - I think I'm getting good at not LBing.

As for protecting my feelings, I think my love is protected from being damaged more than it otherwise might by my efforts to understand what my WW is experiencing. The single step that starts the journey of the WS back to her M is a biiiiig one. And I can imagine how undesirable that step looks to her, even though it hurts me terribly to think about it. Last night I thought about the two of them making love. I pictured the STOP sign and fought the visions off and eventually conked for a few hours, but that was rough.

I told the sparrow that I've DECIDED to forgive her, but that I'm not sure how to get there, only that I mean to. I think she breathed a sigh of relief. I think it was a turning point, and for now that turn seems to have been for the worse. But I'm not really agonizing about it. My interest is sort of academic in a way. It was a good thing to do. As much as it seems to be sometimes, this is not a chess game, it's love. And a real obvious strategy to follow when you love someone is to love them as much as they will let you.

GC

Yeah, that stop-sign idea sounds pretty cheesy, but it really works. I've had to use it many times.

Like you, I've become a pro at not LB'ing. I just wish I saw WW more, so that I could show her how I've changed.

Juke -- I have no idea what to tell you. SH's comment surprised me; I should have asked him more about it. I would think that since you've already gone dark, you should stay there. Like I said, I think Plan B is more for the BS anyway. I'm certainly no expert, though...

Hi, everyone.

I usually read a few posters, stay out of most of the others, simply b/c I've been around here so dang long, that I just can't afford to spend the amounts of time I used to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, graycloud, roughroad, I've been following your stories.

I would like to address the issue of "Plan B without children" -
As you can see from my sig line, H and I have no children together. I did have his children living w/us for a time, but at that time they were 15-20 yrs old! It wasn't like I "helped" raise them.

So, with that background given, let me say that when I read what you say SH said about Plan B caveat, I was surprised! Frankly, I often thought that in my sitch it would be "out of sight, out of mind" - since we did NOT have children. Basically, when he left, he took the "children" with him, since they were HIS. That meant NO ONE called me, or looked in on me, or worried about me, or cared what was happening to me. As a 50-ish woman, that could have become a very scary thing. I AM a very independent person, so I wasn't all that scared, but anyway.......

So, I went through the whole mind game of: "out of sight, out of mind......"
BUT, when the going got rough (and it did!!), and H had no one to turn to, he turned back to me!!! Remember, too, we had been M'd a very long time.

I had "set the stage." I had laid the foundation. I had Plan A'ed as much as possible. I had asked for his forgiveness for my part in the breakdown of the M. I told him I would always love him, etc. Essentially, I think all those things I told him while in the fog must have stuck with him, cause he came running back here when he had nowhere else to go.

Children or no children, my own personal opinion is: If two people love each other, once the A ends, that love will transcend the problems and draw them back to each other.

God Bless,

A few scattered comments.....

I told WW, a while back (perhaps 1 month past DDay #2/3 or so) that I forgive her.

The only thing I regret now is not passing along what forgiveness means to me. It is not for her, but for me. I have forgiven her, the individual. She has made a mistake. She is forgiven. The guy that cuts you off in traffic and then gives *you* the finger....made a mistake. He is forgiven. WW's actions, cruelty can't be forgiven until she realizes that they're wrong. I have accepted her actions, but have no reason to forgive them. But to a certain extent, any BS that is here hoping to reconcile has extended some form of forgiveness to the WS.

Don't forget that Plan B always works. Always. Either the WS comes back, or the BS is less hurt by the D.

No Plan B with kids. Ooooops. Too late for that. But, I won't underestimate the value of Plan B. It allows you perspective on the state of your M and clearly defines boundaries that will benefit your M (or any future R).

Personally, I see a few BH's between the ages of 26-33. No kids. Much like myself. Do all of us love or WWs? Of course we do. But I think that Plan A or bust sounds a lot like Plan B without separating yourself from the hurt that the WS is dishing out. Sounds like fun. I'll take Plan B over that any day. I probably could have done it, but I would have ended up hating my WW in the process. Ehhhh..... hating someone just isn't for me.

Looking back, I personally wouldn't give up the boundaries and personal insight I've gained in Plan B to have multi-time adulterous WW drag her current A around until she figured it out.

What I've gained far outweighs what I've given up.

Ethan

As much as it seems to be sometimes, this is not a chess game, it's love. And a real obvious strategy to follow when you love someone is to love them as much as they will let you.

Yes.

I have a few thoughts percolating...

My husband doesn't really 'get' forgiveness. I think he just thinks I am scared to be alone and desperate to have him back at any cost. He has no idea how hard it has been or what it has cost me to forgive him over the years. He doesn't get it because he hasn't done the work of forgiveness in his own life yet. (Which is probably the main reason he is such a mess.)

And forgiveness is part of the equation, I think.

I think of how God works with us- He is very willing to forgive us (to the point that he has extended his forgiveness before we have even recognised our sin). Forgiveness is pretty much a given, at least in some peoples theology.

The main issue is not forgiveness. It is that we are off exploring the grass on the other side of the fence; getting hurt and hurting others in the process, and missing out on all the good things He has for us, if only we would accept and receive his love.

Just like our spouses are missing out on the love we have for them ,because they don't trust us- they figure their needs won't be met with us etc..

We are here waiting ,offering all this love, and it is them who are missing out.

Thats what they need to see, yes?

Plan A is much like Gods grace toward us while we are 'yet sinners'.

Its when we are afraid, when we don't believe that He will really meet our needs, that we go off, and miss out on His love and protection..

He is offering good things; we are just too blind and desperately intent on getting our needs met so that we can't or won't see it.

God doesn't goes to Plan B, its that we do- we cut ourselves off from his love. The love is still there, but we won't take it. He is simply letting us have our way. Neither forcing us or rejecting us. (Pursuing us; yes- he seeks us out, and watches us- ready to catch us when we finally have had enough adn figure out that we need him.)

We don't see it, but our spouses are not in paradise- they are miserable. Maybe for awhile they might get some of their needs met with the op, but not for long.

(And actually, if we BS's are looking for marriage to meet all our needs we are in trouble too, because only God can satisfy our need for love , (belonging, acceptance, security) in the way that we need.)

Ultimately its not about marriage or getting our spouses back. Its about them and us, turning to God for our basic needs, ( receiving His love) and about learning to love others in turn.

I don't know how I got off on this tangent.
Feel free to ignore it.

As for not going to Plan B, yes I agree. In my case, my husband is so far gone in self pity that he would just say to himself that we were better off- as it is , he is hurt that his daughters reject him (which they haven't- they love him and need him and want him) It is him who has rejected them and he is so full of guilt mixed with self pity that he can't see it.


I think Jesus made this point when he said He didn't come to condemn anyone- he came to save them.

We aren't comdemning our spouses, we want to love them. Thats the message they need to hear, I think.

I am in no position to withold forgiveness, having been forgiven by God. I would be a hypocrite, like the man whose debt was forgiven.

None of us are.

I see my spouse as lost, wandering the streets eating garbage, in a sense, while there is a banquet waiting for him.


When I forgive my husband what I am really doing is asking God to forgive him- not to hold the offense against him. I am offering to bear the consequence ( the hurt) myself. I am saying " God please don't hold this against him!"

Whatever happens, I don't want this stuff on his account. I honestly don't think he means any harm to me- he is just trying to get his needs met, (and I take part responsibility for him being in that position in the first place).

I have to answer to God for not having loved him as I might have. I was too busy trying to get my own needs met, instead of trusting and believing God.

It boils down to 'Love the Lord your God...and your neighbour as yourself'.

We are learning it the hard way, yes?

TFM -- I couldn't agree more. It's the first thing SH has said that I didn't agree with, especially now that I've thought about it a bit.

Plan B is for the BS. If the WS comes back as a result, then great! But the BS shouldn't have to endure a neverending barrage of pain. Given that situation, your love for the WS will be gone anyway.