<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Very powerful example of the potential long term damage and pain caused by A's.

Your Dad sounds like a 'piece of work'.
I am so thankful that my H woke up out of his fog otherwise I hate to think of the lifetime consequences we all may have endured.

blessings and peace to you LIR>..

thank you for your time here...
and your honesty ...

was listening to some grateful dead today...
stopped what I was doing and just listened to
Uncle John's band...

Well the first days are the hardest days,don't you worry any more,

Come hear Uncle John's Band playing to the tide,
Got some things to talk about, here beside the risin' tide.

Ain't no time to hate, barely time to wait,
Woh-oh, what I want to know, where does the time go?

Come hear Uncle John's Band playing to the tide,
Come on along, or go alone, he's come to take his children home.
Woh-oh, what I want to know, how does the song go?


It's a catchy little diddy...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ARK

<small>[ July 02, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Thanks for sharing.

((((hugs))))

Susan

The saddest part is your father's failure to ever seek redemption. But somehow good people have endured and survived him anyway. Thanks for the story.

GC

Hi LIR,

Your dad sounds really messed up.I am sorry you had to grow up around that.I did too in similar ways.My Dad and I are a bit closer now but it's not anyhwere near what a father/daughter realtionship should be and he has many regrets.

It was such a good idea to keep that OW away from your mother's funeral.I would have had secret service agents or whatever it took to keep the OW away too.What nerve!

Unfortunately,there are only a handful of WS's here to take your sound advice,The rest of them are all out there destroying marriages and families.GRRR.

Take it easy now,you deserve some TLC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

Blessings to you LIR.

Bump

Dear LIR,

Condolences to you and your family for your mother's passing. It must be hard to deal with losing a loved one and dealing with a jerk all at the same time. Glad to know you have the support of your family around you.

May the happy memories of your mom, help you all out at this time.

In deepest sympathy,
LeAnne

To many thoughts, no time right now. I am answering the alarm at work. Looks like some boxes fell over.

Wondering what to say. I need to keep it short.

Some things are a blessing - but we don't always see them as such. I think your father helped you and your H become much closer. You can have a relationship with your father any time he is ready, but he may never be ready. I think you could do it, I don't know if he could.

Glad H supported you, Glad you feel closer. I still worry about you. Felt to post these last three days - didn't know why, thought I should leave you alone if you were trying to stay away.

We learn much about others, and much about ourselves. I have learned enough about you to believe you will do well long term. I still worry about the short term pain, and stress for you. Will continue to pray.

Must go, family expecting me.

SS

LIR.... there is so much pain that you must deal with now. All has changed, all is the same, and it must seem like there are some things that can never be fixed or made better. I can't offer you very much, but perhaps this prayer will help a little. I cried when I read it.

Despite all the suffering (suffering that we can’t even begin to imagine) a prayer was discovered on a piece of wrapping paper beside the body of a dead child in [a] concentration camp - built at a place called Ravensbruck, where 92,000 women and children were murdered. We don’t know who wrote this prayer, but we make it our own today:

O Lord, remember not only the men and women of good will, but also those of ill will. But do not remember all the suffering they have inflicted on us. Remember instead the good things that have come to us thanks to this suffering -- our comradeship, our loyalty, our humility, our courage, our generosity, and the greatness of heart which have all grown out of this. And when they come to judgement, let all the good things that have come out of this be their forgiveness. Amen.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hello,
It seems you still have a lot of things to think about. (at this point, almost anything would sound like an understatement, wouldn't it?)


I am going to give my opinion on quite a few things - I find myself wishing I had more time. I wonder how you had the time to post all these feelings, but I realized after a while that you needed to talk about it.

I would not say that I am feeling depressed right now - more just totally emotionally exhausted - it has been a tiring time, and I am still needed by people I care about.

You are still needed, and the demands on your time are epic - still. And it doesn't look like it will change any time soon. (soon being the next 5 years.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am really glad you are not feeling depressed. You have learned to think about things, talk about them, and move on. I think that's how you process things (now) that a few years ago would have affected your ability to function. I can see real growth in you from when you first began to post.


....the scenes my mother went through rival all the stories on these boards...finally, when I was 11 years old, she lost her temper and threw him out...

I am glad she threw him out.
I am sure it is for the best, and I say that because had he stayed, he would have hurt you far more than his leaving hurt you. You may have accepted as normal some of his ideas. I think (unless he changed completely) that his being away from you most of the time saved you and your siblings from things that could have been much worse.

I don't know how bad it was being without a father, I don't completely understand how long it took for you to get over that abandonment, but I think you are over it now, and I think you turned out really, really well. I could defend my position (on how you turned out) in court.

It took my Dad two weeks to call after I got back to the UK, and we have not mentioned anything emotional...I am ready to let my R with my Dad go...I don't wish to talk to him about any of this...as far as I am concerned, my mother is dead now, and I don't have to worry about hurting her feelings by having a rift with my Dad....but I no longer need my Dad for anything...there is no reason to continue the R....I also want absolutely nothing to do with my SM....I have spoken to her once, briefly...that was all...I guess I am trying to get a handle on how to handle this from now on....

Unless your father can, and will change, it will not be well with him when he meets his maker.
I am thinking about what you said about having a relationship with him. I think you can do with him what you did with your H. You live the way you ought to live, no matter what he chooses to do. Your sons ought to know their grandfather. He is far enough away that he can't cause real harm to your family. If he treated you badly whenever you talked to him, then I would give up the relationship, but I think he has probably forgotten most of what happened (in connection with the funeral) already. I would guess he will act as if nothing happened.

You needed to be radically honest with your H for any improvement to take place. You do not need that with your father, and probably you could just ignore the things he does and maintain a long distance relationship. I am not saying you should side with him over your H, just that most of the time things would probably go well from a distance and you wouldn't need to take any action. I am thinking of the famous "love your enemies" quote - and please know that I would change this advice if he lived a block away from you, but I can't see trying to enforce a change when both of us know that probably wouldn't work - and when he lives so far away that problems will seldom come up.

The worst thing about my mother's funeral was my dad...it was plain to see that although he has a lot of charm, intelligence, health and good looks, he is NOT the person he could have been...he has squandered all the blessings God gave him....and is the poorer for it...he made his bed with the OW, now he has to lie in it....and it ain't no bed of roses, either.

He has no hope. I believe on some level, he knows what he is, and he has no hope. You have hope, you have a future. Be as kind to him as time and distance will permit, because he has nothing else - and who knows - perhaps there is still time for God to touch his heart, and bring him back. Certainly Jesus paid the price for him as well as for you and I.

If you lived closer, protection would be a factor, but with the distance it won't matter much. If this were me, I would probably limit visits, but not cut him off. I can tell you that my FIL, and MIL are divorced, and this is what we did with FIL. We still sent cards, we still visited, but we did fewer visits, and we were careful about the time our children spent with him. I don't think ours was quite as bad, but very similar as far as the anger, and not wanting to have a relationship. He used to call my W and yell at her, and I finally spoke to him and told him that I was the one he needed to talk to, and if he had anything to say he could say it to me - long story, but things are better now, and he is respectful when we visit.


One of the reasons I felt to post to you last week was that I wondered how you were holding up in the absence of your mother. My mind told me that it must have pulled you and your H together and that you were being taken care of. If you did still come around and read, I didn't want to interrupt your peace and drag you back to posting if you didn't feel like doing it. I have to admit that I still worried a little bit..........and I still pray for the four of you.

I am reading down through your second long post, and I am feeling sad for your father. I am not sure why it is that so many people that seem so intelligent can't grasp simple things like treating others as you want to be treated.

I have confided to my dad my marriage problems, and Dad has helped me to cope with my feelings so that I didn't blow it with H. But when push came to shove, he snarled at H, " well, I may have a bad temper, but when it comes to having a temper, that's something YOU ought to understand!" H swivelled around in his seat and stared at me!


I hope you have spoken to your H about this by now. He would probably tell you that you don't need to talk about it, but I think it would be one more thing to get behind you.

You know, I am happy that you are close to your H now. I can tell you that the differences between you (Mars and Venus) will continue to make for misunderstandings. You will need to study up on it, and you will need to remind your self of it, because we really do think differently and unless you have a way to bring it back to the front of your mind it will get to you again and again. Even the same day I read it, I find myself saying" NO, she can't think that way, it just can't be!!" But it is, and I have to remind myself over and over.

I don't know much about the current relationship you have with your H, but this closeness you feel now will fade away unless the other things are dealt with.
Separate finances
Secret mail accounts
un-accounted for time.
Unjustified anger and blame

I am not sure if you ever got a hold of "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love." but I think if you left it laying around, he would probably read it.

You still have a long way to go, but I suspect if you look around you will see the rest of us coming along behind.
That's a backhanded compliment - I have a great respect for you, and you have taught me so much.

You know? I'm 47 years old -

UH OH, time to change your signature line.

Just for the record, I am 48, and soon to be 49.
This is just all in fun, OK?

Thanks again for the update - there is a lot of relief on this end now that I know you are doing well with H.

SS

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi LIR,
(Hi sounds so flat as a greeting sometimes, I wish I could do better.)

I laughed when I read your opening, thanks for the geat sense of humor - I think that will add to your relationship with your H, and I think during the dark days he missed it. I suspect it is harder for you to maintain during the winter - more to say about this, no time.

I am doing a backpacking trip with some scouts for a few days, and won't be around to post.

Will check in when I get back and maybe post some more - love to hear how you are doing with H, I know it's better, but I do believe the things that are LB's (to you from him) need to be dealt with. LB's take love out of the bank faster than any need meeting can fill it - at least in normal every day life. The last 6 months have not been normal life for you.

I am so glad for the improvement, I am so glad, and you can tell H I said that.

SS

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

LIR... it's late and I'm headed out of town for the weekend (Smart Marriages conference, here I come), but I wanted to stop by and say yes -- that prayer leaped out at me when I read it. It pretty much stapled itself to my forehead, in fact, and then it leaped away again completely when I posted it to you. Intuition and serendipity are strange ducks. But more and more, I trust their influence. They happen, they work. They bring us what we need.

I read the story of your SM and your dad, and I just shook my head. There are stories in my family history that are painful to read. None are painful like that.

I do know, based on what you said about your SM and your dad, that I would never let a 15-year-old child anywhere near them. They both seem to think that sex with a child that age is okay, after all, and that's enough reason right there to just back away slowly.

I read, sometimes, of awakenings that wayward spouses have. Times when they suddenly just snap back into their old reality, and they can't quite figure out how they got to where they are now.

It gives me a little hope, a little faith, to know that that happens.

Your dad's story, though, is of the much darker variety. It's a story that involves evil. Not just the evil of making blind and foolish choices, but the evil of consciously choosing to base your own pleasure in the pain of others. Knowing a little of the history of those two people, it isn't a surprise. And yet many thousands of others have similar histories and grew toward light instead of in darkness.

I am sorry for them. And my pity, and my prayers for them, remain. And yet what you describe.... is evil. I'm glad that you live far away from it.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

It's always good to hear how you are doing. I wonder how the families are doing of both your friends. Both situations would be difficult. I have sometimes wondered how I would do if my W were to leave life much earlier than me. Not an adventure anyone would choose. I hope I never find out how I would do.


- I have short periods now where grief for my mom comes up, and I cry for her...

The key is "short."
This is natural, and aids in healing. Let it come, let it go.

.......but I have been reflecting back, and I remember well the years following the divorce - my mom was very creative then (this was before my brother broke down) - she made several beautiful embroideries, she took a jewelery-making class and made my sister and I silver necklaces and bracelets, she took up macrame, and produced some amazing musem-quality necklaces using special beads, feathers and semi-precious stones - she took and etching class and learned how to do etchings - she was very actively taking up her "art" again - my mother was exceptionally talented and gave up an art scholarship to Otis Art Institute to put my dad through medical school. I am slowly realizing that although my mom was wounded, betrayed, and depressed, she was still able to see beauty around her and to create beauty - she was depressed, but tried nevertheless, to create something tangible that was beautiful - she tried to learn new things - she ignored my dad's insults and set herself to doing what she wanted to do, which being married to him and interfered with....my mother had a beautiful smile, and she could still smile...at little children, at a beautiful tree, at beautiful music, at the accomplishments of her children...

So even though I know what kind of pain she carried with her...she also showed me that that pain does not have to steal away from you your creativity or ability to love and create. Maybe I am getting over the shock of the negative, and starting to appreciate again the positive....and that's what I am going to remember most about her...how much she loved us all, and her creativity...she didn't die owning her own home, or being financially successful, having had a productive career...she didn't have a reputation...or make any name for herself....

Heaven judges differently than men judge. I think she did make a name for herself - and I think she does have a reputation. How wonderful that she was able to give you the gift of these memories of her successes. I am moved to tears less often now on MB, but you made me cry recounting your mothers talents. I see she used them well, and I see she passed on her love of life to you. I hope your sister has it too. Do you realize how much the tone of your posts has changed? It's not because it's summer, either.

Your mother has more to smile about now than she has ever had. She still has you, she still has her grandchildren. She still has a bright future - without the hardships.


But she survived much more than most people have to go through, and was still a kind, gentle, caring, creative person...to me, that means more than anything else...

She's not gone anywhere, she's just graduated from one school and gone on to another.


And Dad? He has called me a couple more times - we still don't talk about anything emotional...SM has not been present during any of his calls...I just get the feeling he is trying to stay in touch...he is making the effort...I have not...part of me has to learn to forgive....knowing that he is remorseful just about (almost) starts to make that possible..... - I know my feelings are un-Christian to say the least, but I just have to ask God for help with this one....

Your first priority should be protecting yourself, and your family. 2nd, help him if you can help him, but please be careful. God will help if you ask, you know that by now.

My sister and I are close...we talk to each other a lot on the phone....we are both trying to move on in a positive way...

Do you talk to each other as you used to talk to your mother?


H is doing fine...being a rubberband...in the Martian way...pulling way, then snapping back...

It's easier for you to take it now, you trust him again. He must have been wonderful during your darkest hour. Many hours of prayer have been answered.

I'm starting to think about Sept. - when both boys will be in boarding school....H is being very pro-active and has found a builder who is ready to finish the work on our house....yay! Hopefully he ill be able to start in Sept...

You wanted them in B school once to protect them. What are your feelings now? A year ago, you didn't have a vision of a future, but you do now. It's exciting for you again, isn't it.

Am taking the plunge and going to get my hair coloured - tired of having people say I look tired - even though I AM tired! Thinking I will take swimming lessons in Sept. Also going to take a creative writing class...having ideas about my own future again...that's a good sign....

Please post before and after pics on the photo thread, so we can tell you which one we like best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I'm teasing, but I'm serious.

You may be tired, but you sound so much happier now. It's not fake either. How about the degree? Is that still on the docket for the future?

Gotta go....strim the other half of the lawn and look like I have been busy when H comes home! HAH! NOT!

You are still very good at helping others - keep it up as often as you are able. It's is always good to use one's talents, especially when it does someone else good.

My granddaughter just came to visit me, I need to go and talk to her. Baby talk, but don't tell anyone. She's three months old. She just smiled at me, I love it when she smiles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

It's always good to hear how you are doing. I wonder how the families are doing of both your friends. Both situations would be difficult. I have sometimes wondered how I would do if my W were to leave life much earlier than me. Not an adventure anyone would choose. I hope I never find out how I would do.


- I have short periods now where grief for my mom comes up, and I cry for her...

The key is "short."
This is natural, and aids in healing. Let it come, let it go.

.......but I have been reflecting back, and I remember well the years following the divorce - my mom was very creative then (this was before my brother broke down) - she made several beautiful embroideries, she took a jewelery-making class and made my sister and I silver necklaces and bracelets, she took up macrame, and produced some amazing musem-quality necklaces using special beads, feathers and semi-precious stones - she took and etching class and learned how to do etchings - she was very actively taking up her "art" again - my mother was exceptionally talented and gave up an art scholarship to Otis Art Institute to put my dad through medical school. I am slowly realizing that although my mom was wounded, betrayed, and depressed, she was still able to see beauty around her and to create beauty - she was depressed, but tried nevertheless, to create something tangible that was beautiful - she tried to learn new things - she ignored my dad's insults and set herself to doing what she wanted to do, which being married to him and interfered with....my mother had a beautiful smile, and she could still smile...at little children, at a beautiful tree, at beautiful music, at the accomplishments of her children...

So even though I know what kind of pain she carried with her...she also showed me that that pain does not have to steal away from you your creativity or ability to love and create. Maybe I am getting over the shock of the negative, and starting to appreciate again the positive....and that's what I am going to remember most about her...how much she loved us all, and her creativity...she didn't die owning her own home, or being financially successful, having had a productive career...she didn't have a reputation...or make any name for herself....

Heaven judges differently than men judge. I think she did make a name for herself - and I think she does have a reputation. How wonderful that she was able to give you the gift of these memories of her successes. I am moved to tears less often now on MB, but you made me cry recounting your mothers talents. I see she used them well, and I see she passed on her love of life to you. I hope your sister has it too. Do you realize how much the tone of your posts has changed? It's not because it's summer, either.

Your mother has more to smile about now than she has ever had. She still has you, she still has her grandchildren. She still has a bright future - without the hardships.


But she survived much more than most people have to go through, and was still a kind, gentle, caring, creative person...to me, that means more than anything else...

She's not gone anywhere, she's just graduated from one school and gone on to another.


And Dad? He has called me a couple more times - we still don't talk about anything emotional...SM has not been present during any of his calls...I just get the feeling he is trying to stay in touch...he is making the effort...I have not...part of me has to learn to forgive....knowing that he is remorseful just about (almost) starts to make that possible..... - I know my feelings are un-Christian to say the least, but I just have to ask God for help with this one....

Your first priority should be protecting yourself, and your family. 2nd, help him if you can help him, but please be careful. God will help if you ask, you know that by now.

My sister and I are close...we talk to each other a lot on the phone....we are both trying to move on in a positive way...

Do you talk to each other as you used to talk to your mother?


H is doing fine...being a rubberband...in the Martian way...pulling way, then snapping back...

It's easier for you to take it now, you trust him again. He must have been wonderful during your darkest hour. Many hours of prayer have been answered.

I'm starting to think about Sept. - when both boys will be in boarding school....H is being very pro-active and has found a builder who is ready to finish the work on our house....yay! Hopefully he ill be able to start in Sept...

You wanted them in B school once to protect them. What are your feelings now? A year ago, you didn't have a vision of a future, but you do now. It's exciting for you again, isn't it.

Am taking the plunge and going to get my hair coloured - tired of having people say I look tired - even though I AM tired! Thinking I will take swimming lessons in Sept. Also going to take a creative writing class...having ideas about my own future again...that's a good sign....

Please post before and after pics on the photo thread, so we can tell you which one we like best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I'm teasing, but I'm serious.

You may be tired, but you sound so much happier now. It's not fake either. How about the degree? Is that still on the docket for the future?

Gotta go....strim the other half of the lawn and look like I have been busy when H comes home! HAH! NOT!

You are still very good at helping others (Here on Mb) - keep it up as often as you are able. It's is always good to use one's talents, especially when it does someone else good.

My granddaughter just came to visit me, I need to go and talk to her. Baby talk, but don't tell anyone. She's three months old. She just smiled at me, I love it when she smiles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

<small>[ July 20, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>