This is my first post here. I've been reading your discussions for a couple of weeks and really could use some help.

Wow, I'm sorry that this is so long! Please, I hope some of you will have the time to read it through and offer advice.

H (I think WH) and I have been married 29 years. WH runs his business at our home - not being specific --let's say it's an art studio attached to our home and he gives art classes. About 16 years ago he had an A with a 21 year old assistant. Mutual friends told me about it, and when confronted he admitted to an EA and kissing. He was sorry and she immediately left. I believe it ended then. We decided to work on our marriage, go to MC and only hire male assistants for his business. He lasted a few months with MC. IC for me lasted a few years.

He now has a 30 year old female assistant (I believe to be an OW) who began as a student about 16 years ago. The change from student to assistant was gradual. Her parents divorced, she became like a member of our family and I didn't hold him to the agreement of having only male assistants. I was too wrapped up in my work, my problems and too trusting. WH and OW spend much time together during and after work.

Our 22 year old daughter is also an assistant in H's business. For about 5 years there has been tension between the two young women. WH is forever raving about how fabulous and hard working OW is. The backbone of the business. I agree she's a very hard worker. He never says anything about her that isn't praise. God forbid D or I suggest something is less than wonderful -- (such as she might contribute to the tension between D and she) he is on full defense. OW and WH argue sometimes -- MIL once mentioned that they seem like a married couple. And they do.

Their business requires time away from home and staying in hotels for weeks at a time. Sometimes for a month or two. 3 weeks ago D told me that she believes WH and OW have been staying in the same hotel room. I asked him and he denied. I asked him to show me hotel receipts for two rooms. He would not, and was indignant that I'd asked. I asked if they were having an A and he said 'you give me too much credit'. WHAT??? He said many of the typical things that WS's say...told me I'm crazy, imagining things, he can't tolerate snooping. He also said he loves me and D and our home.

One afternoon last week we were trying to talk this through. I know that he phones her in the evenings after work hours. I asked him to keep to just a working relationship with her. To not call her after hours. He denied that he calls her at night. I had seen on his cell phone that he'd called her the night before. During this talk the OW had come quietly into our house from the studio and probably heard part of our conversation. I realized it when her dog came into the room we were in. WH said that someone was in the house, walked out of the room toward where she was and about 10 seconds later she entered the room I was in to say goodnight, see you tomorrow. I responded nicely and she left.

It's not unusual for her to come in the house without knocking, but it's unusual for anyone to come in quietly -- the door is loud, our dogs were in the house, the floor is ceramic tile. The rest of the evening between WH and myself was great. We made love and then went out to dinner with friends. In the morning I looked at his cell and found an outgoing call to her less than an hour after our talk the evening before. I asked him about the call and he said it was to give her the results of an art show. Then he became indignant that I'd snooped.

During our next talk I asked him to stop calling her after hours. He didn't really respond. Didn't agree to stop.

I am now uncomfortable in my own home. I used to spend time in the studio but now avoid it. I've told him that it's time for the OW to find a new job. I've said that when an employee becomes an issue in a marriage they need to move on. We've even talked about a job that's available for her where she'd make more money than she does now.

He said that if she goes, he goes. He'll not be with her but he'll leave because he can't live with his conscience if he has to let her go. He tells me that she's done nothing wrong -- she shouldn't have to suffer for my insecurity. And he says he's done nothing wrong except neglect me. I've told him that it's his choice. That I don't want him to leave, but that she needs to move on.

During the past 15 years I've lost both parents and beloved brother to unrelated causes. Brother and Dad required care from me while suffering with terminal illnesses. Three years ago I was diagnosed with Hepatitis C which I contracted from a blood transfusion during surgery in 1982. I mention these things because, although H and I had a comfortable and friendly relationship, I don't think I had the energy or strength (or will) to notice what was going on with him and between us.

He's had very little interest in sex for the past few years. He stopped holding me at night a few months ago. Haven't let myself go -- I'm not unattractive. He says that the HepC worries him. 3 years ago I convinced him to be tested, which he did and he doesn't have it. The chances of it passing between opposite sex spouses during sex are slim and none. We've been together for 30 years including the 22 years since I contracted the disease. A couple of years ago I asked him to use condoms if he was concerned. He has never used a condom with me but I found a box of them in his dresser a couple of years ago. He never told me he had them. Last week I asked him why he had them. He said he'd bought them for us -- that I should count them and I'd see that there are none missing. That's true they're all there.

I'm really struggling here. I know that this is an EA and probably a PA. It may have been going on for years. Please help.

<small>[ July 03, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

Haywire,

I am so sorry to hear of your story. I will leave the pro's on this forum to give you some initial recomendations.

I am worried about a statement you made of the transmission rate between sex partners and Hepatitis C. I believe there is a SIGNIFICANT chance of transmision. The use of condoms helps but is NOT foolproof.

My prayers are with you.

Cymanca, thank you for your concern. About the transmission, please go to the CDC website and many others to see that the concern of transmission between monogamous couples is very low. My doctor has treated patients with this disease for nearly 20 years and he has not had one couple pass it between them. I hope this won't become the focus of this thread.

First of all, welcome to MarriageBuilders forums. Sorry you find yourself here, but there is no better place to be to learn how to save your marriage from infidelity.

First of all, stop any confrontations with your husband and get a copy of Surviving an Affair. Read it and learn about the dynamics of an affair. Learn how to recognize any failings you might have made in allowing the marriage to be vulnerable to an affair. This is NOT to say the affair is your fault. It is not, and you own no part of your husband's decision to be involved outside the marriage.

Secondly, your H (husband) is obviously in total denial. You may want to invest in a telephone recorder system, to record ALL incoming and outgoing calls. You will need to hide it well in your home or business so he (or she) won't find it. You can even purchase devices that will record his cell phone conversations. This may give you more concrete evidence, which would be more difficult to deny.

When the next out of town trip occurs, you may want to have a private investigator follow them and document any activity, as well.

You should be able to gain access to all cell phone activity online. You can track all incoming and outgoing phone numbers with most cell phone services. Likewise, you can scour the credit card bills, and look for any suspicious activity there. Such as only one hotel room while they are away on "business".

Do NOT confront him with any evidence you may find until you have read Surviving an Affair. There is a prescribed way to do this. It will save you time and effort if you do things in a well thought out and informed way.

Other books that come highly recommended are Torn Asunder, and Not Just Friends. These books may help you, as well. You might want to start looking for a well recommended Pro-Marriage counselor to help you through this. You may also want to consider getting on some Anti-D medication to help you keep your cool, and think through things clearly.

Read especially about Plan A. You can start here on the website, at the home page. That will be your start. Plan A includes exposing the Affair to help bring it to an end. It may seem to be a difficult thing to do, but it is a necessary thing to do. Read also about LoveBusters, and stop them immediately.

Post here and many very kind and caring people will help you reclaim your marriage, and perhaps make it better than you ever imagined.

Keep the faith.

SD

<small>[ July 03, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Hi haywire, I am very sorry you are here, but just know you are in the right place.

Most of us here have learned the hard way to trust our instincts so that is what I am going to tell you to do.

HOWEVER, you can only use your instincts as a GUIDE, not as a basis for making an accusation. Making accusations without evidence is a waste of time and gets you nowhere, as you can see. If the accusation is true, it only makes the WS sneakier in covering his tracks and if it is false, it greatly offends. Nor is a guilty person likely to bust himself and confess. So please..no more accusations UNTIL YOU FIND OUT WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING.

And what that means is, until you find something REALLY incriminating, you don't say anything.

Do some intensive sleuthing to find out what is really happening, but don't show your hand until you have the FULL STORY. And the full story may very well exonerate him and give you peace of mind, who knows?

So I would suggest placing some hidden voice activated recorders in the studio and on any house phones you think he uses. You can also place a recorder in his car or any other place where he uses his cell phone. Radio Shack sells these and will tell you how to operate them.

That will give you a start. But until you know what is going on, you can't really proceed.

Does your daughter think they are having an affair? Is that the source of the tension between them?

Shattered, thanks. I looked for Surviving An Affair at the local B&N but couldn't find it. Will keep looking.

Melody, our daughter is convinced that they've been staying together from what she and friends have seen. She thinks there is an A and I think it's very difficult for her.

haywire, you can also order the book from this website, or so I've been told.

SD

haywire -
Definately get the book - drive all around town until you find it - it will help you to decide how to proceed at this very touchy time.

Can the cell phone recorder be placed so that he can't find it? I worry about that of course. I bought a voice activated recorder but am nervous about it being found. The best use I've had for it so far was to record our own conversations, so that I know that I'm not crazy when I repeat something he said and he says he never said it.

I thought of getting a report of his cell calls but -- get this -- HIS cell phone is under HER name. This is supposedly because the service he wanted required that the owner live in certain areas of the state which didn't include our home but did include hers. So to get the report I will need her SS # I think.

Yes, I'll drive around today to find the book and if I can't find it, will order it. Thanks.

haywire, I've no experience with the cell phone recorders. On the other recorders, they just plug into your phone line, then right back out. I hid mine under our bed in the master bedroom, and it was never found.

If she "works" for you (the OW), you should have her SS#, but you'll also need the account number. You might find it in the "business" trash. Perhaps her phone should become a "business expense" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and you'll have both!

http://www.thespystore.com/cellphonerecorders.htm

SD

<small>[ July 03, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD,
Right, I've been planning to look through his business papers and should be able to find her SS#.

Something I hadn't mentioned was that she has never had a boyfriend and I don't even think she ever dates. I don't think she's gay because there's no reason to hide it in their business or social lives. I do believe she's in love with H -- the father figure, teacher, boss syndrome. I've known that for a long time but didn't think he would reciprocate.

Am I being unreasonable in the way I'm thinking?

haywire

Something that nearly always proves to be true in these matters is TRUST YOUR GUT FEELINGS. They are almost always on the mark.

But for exposure, you need evidence you could use in a court of law! On that note, whatever evidence you do get your hands on, make copies, and keep the originals in a VERY safe place. When you have the evidence, and are prepared to expose, use the copies. In some instances the WS (wayward spouse) takes and destroys the "evidence". Protect yourself from this happening.

Don't get caught snooping. That is a Love Buster. Be very careful. The closer "they" know you are, the more secretive and careful they will be.

Other places to look are luggage, exercise bags, pockets of coats he's worn to "business" trips, etc. Be creative and think like he would.


SD

Is it wrong to ask him to find her another job? Am I jumping to conclusions?

I've told him I love him and want to work on us. He said he doesn't want it to be "work". I've asked him to go with me to marriage counseling but he says no, he hated it last time.

I'm off now to try to find Surviving An Affair...

SD, I posted above before seeing your response. I guess you're saying that I'm not jumping to conclusions. It IS in my gut...which is twisted in a knot!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by haywire:
[QB] Is it wrong to ask him to find her another job? Am I jumping to conclusions?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">haywire, like shattered dreams said, your instincts are most likely correct. And yes you can insist she find another job, but you first must get the evidence. So please focus on getting the evidence first and then we can help you figure out what to do.

Sorry to just jump in.

So you want to find out.

1) Next time they are out of town together go through the files at work. Do it slowly and don't eat, drink while doing it as you don't want to damage what your looking at. Photo copy anything suspicious.
2) get cell records, phone records, bank records, visa records etc.
3) if he has a computor copy all his files, and look at installing eves dropping software. He will never know it's there.

4) - DON"T TELL ANYONE YOUR DOING THIS. This is for you and loose lips sink ships.

5) - still confused get online and you will find many sites discussing lowbudget but effective ways to find the info you want.

Again sorry for all your going through as this eye spy stuff is the dirty side of cheating.

Bookshopping was a success...I brought home Surviving An Affair and Not Just Friends.

goodguy - Please feel free to jump in anytime! I'll do as you suggest. The cell phone bills have changed and don't list each call, so I'll need to try an online service once I get the SS#. The business phone bills might help. I think he has used that phone too to call her at night.

MelodyLane, I thought that her leaving, if it is done peacefully, would help start the ball rolling...If they're not working together, they'll need to make more effort to stay in contact if there is an A. If so, it'll be more easily proven or it might help end it. If there is no A, then she'll still be in a good work situation, probably better than here, because her future here is tenuous once H retires and daughter is running things.

Should I not look at it that way? If so, and I back off on her leaving, how should I interact with her? We were very friendly, with me cooking dinner for everyone a few times a week, her staying overnight in our home when the next day was an early start, etc. Should I try to act as if absolutely nothing is different? She told a mutual friend that she knows someone told me that they've been staying together in the hotels. So she knows that I've heard some upsetting news.

Thanks for all the help.

Something I said to H which I believe is true whether or not there is an A: She has an attachment to you -- a father, teacher, boss attraction. You're not doing her any favors by allowing and encouraging the attraction. You are the man in her life. She needs to get a social life and find a real relationship with another man.

He responded, You think I'm standing in the way of her social life? But that was the night he called her after our talk, part of which she overheard. His first words to her the next morning, according to our daughter were: You okay?

haywire

In that she is "employed" by your Husband, her "leaving" may be a little more complicated than you might imagine.

The girl may have some ulterior motives here, or if just "fired", be encouraged to look into some charges of sexual harassment. It's a different world out there today, and when an employer becomes involved with an employee, there can be legal and financial ramifications.

Now, if you get the proof you will be looking for, and when you formally, and properly "expose" any A that might be going on, it may well be that she is "compelled" to resign, without any problems.

I just thought you should be aware that there are some landmines out there!

SD

ps: How you coming on the book?