haywire -

I am doing pretty well, and at least have my self-esteem back. I hope you will keep up your boundaries with WH.

And don't hate the house. It is just a place. Reclaim it as your home.

Your WH and OW have been very disrespectful. You have remained a good woman. Take pride in that.

weaver, you're right. It would probably be good to go away for a little while. I'll put some thought into it.

Thanks Believer. I'll try to look at it that way.

haywire

Those of us who have been through this kind of betrayal know how you feel. The total package of emotions is overwhelming. Totally. Just know that there are many of us here supporting you in this ordeal. Totally.

I can see that divorce would seem to be a huge release from all you are going through. It will not. It will put you on a path to a different life, without H there, but it will take you about the same time to process all these feelings, whether you are D'd or not. Please keep that in mind.

It may well be that a legal separation would achieve the same santuary from day to day exposure to your WH, and give you more time to process what has happened.

I think in SAA it recommends a minimum of 6 months of time passing before you make a decision so permanent.

You know your situation better than we do, so you will have to decide what's best for you. There are very few of us Betrayed Spouses who didn't consider divorce, not once, but many times, through the 6 months following D-Day.

Take your time, and take care of yourself. I think you were going to the IC for Anti'D's? If so, are they helping? Make sure you eat well and get sufficient sleep to deal with this intellectually, and not let your emotions have total control.

There is a reason God did NOT answer your prayers last night, to take you. He has bigger and better things in store for you. And the fact that you ARE still here today, means HE knows you have the strength!

Best Wishes

SD

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD, I really needed to read your words right now. As much as my head is thinking Divorce, deep down I'm still in conflict. I was just now reading SAA and asked WH to read some of it. He rolled his eyes and said he will but doesn't have time right now. He'll probably think it's a pile of bsh*t but who knows...

The IC didn't mention AD's and neither did I. I thought I could get by without them but maybe not. I'm seeing her tomorrow and will ask. I try to avoid taking medications because of possible effects on the liver which is the concern with HepC. But will talk to her and probably the medical Dr. to decide.

I've never taken them and am wondering -- how do AD's affect a person? Can you drive and work as usual?

Haywire, get on an AD. I'm in the mental health field and have never pushed ADs, but have seen when someimes therapy alone isn't enough. Two weeks into the truth telling I KNEW I was going into a major depressive episode, and I didn't even have the whole story yet. I have never been on an AD before, but I knew I needed help, especially when I kept reading that it was appropriate to be on one in this situation. So I called my doctor, told her I was in an extreme crisis, and could I get on an AD. I asked her to put me on Lexapro because it's one of the cleanest (least side effects) of the ADs. I asked her if she thought it was appropiate to be on an AD because my depression was caused by outside circumstances. She said if it helps me to cope and takes the edge off the anxiety I should do it. The Lexapro kicked in suprisingly fast and the difference in me was amazing. I also eventually needed sleep meds and that helped too. You need whatever you need to help you think more clearly. The Lexapro did cause sexual dysfunction eventually so I'm now taking a mix of Lexapro and Wellbutrin.

Concerning the Hep C, my H is on an AD, and has been for a while. The interfuron pushed him into a deep depression in the late 90s, and that's when he started taking them. As I've told you he is cured now, so the AD was fine for him to take. SD is right, give yourself some time to regroup. I just read this morning in the book "Not Just Friends" we BSs need to figure out if our WSs betrayal was a circumstantial fluke or is it their character. Figure that out before you D him. He is totally fogged out now. Last night I said to my H I still can't believe he told me when I confronted OW, in front of her, "CV, you're not being fair to OW." She's "F"ing my H for months and I'M not being fair to her! He told me last night he wasn't in his right mind and he wouldn't say that now.

I know this is so hard. I think I'm going to be starting my own thread today. IT ALL TOTALLY SUCKS BIG ONES! I know, I'm so eloquent. You're character shines through your posts. Remember YOU have class and integrity. If your H loses you it's his loss. You WILL walk away with your head held high, and you will have the respect of your daughter. She will grow from your strength. Just pour out whatever you need to here. CV

I am on Lexapro also. I got on it because I have panic attacks, and thought that my breakup would cause them to escalate. It has made a world of difference for me being able to handle the end of my engagement (and now dating him again with the trust issues).

The first two weeks on Lexapro were a little hard, I was incredibly tired, I could barely function from the fatigue actually. But now three months later I feel great. No panic attacks or fear of the future. Just a sense of well being I hadn't had in a long time.

I did take tylenol sleep medicine too at first when I had trouble sleeping at night.

Best to you,

Weaver

haywire,

Please do yourself a favor and listen to what shattered dreams is sharing with you today.

IMO, You ARE NOT in an emotionally stable place  right now to make life changing decisions.

YOU have other options. A true plan B, a trial separation, ect,.

YOU need to take the time to Internally PROCESS all this.
Truthfully, Your emotions are in total control right now.
Now although emotions are & can be a good thing, they make a poor "compass" for your life. You need Balance in your life to make the Best decisions for it.
YOU are currently in a state of imbalance. Your emotions are ruling the day. (This is understandable!)
Unfortunately, they can (& Do) change day to day or even hour to hour. As a result, not the best or most reliable guide.
If you simply make hasty choices based on these very Powerful "feelings" your experiencing RIGHT NOW, you will regret it at some point down the road.

Just know, At some point your head will clear......as you begin to get a handle on this situation and accept that although Very Painful.......it is something you can survive.

SD is also correct that just jumping into a D may seem like a good idea at the time.
It seems like a quick fix to a horrible situation.
YOU mistakenly believe it will make you FEEL better. IT will NOT!

You have to go through the process, (discovery, shock, fear, anger, guilt, remorse, ect,.)
Unfortunately, you WILL go through all the stages......question is do you go through it with someone (in an attempt to save the M) OR do you Go through it Alone taking the Divorce route.
However, Either way you will experience all this and more.

The main benefit of attempting to work this out together is that even should it NOT work out in the end (and you still get a D) you will have Healed YOURSELF in the process.
YOU will then NOT have all this "baggage" to carry with you into the rest of your life.
(Of course best scenario is you end up with a new and better M).
You are such a good woman, no one want's for you to ever end up miserable and bitter.

Sadly, as I stated previously, you are so early in this process (whether it ultimately ends in a reconciliation or a D) that its very difficult to keep things in perspective.
Bad news is that It is most likely to continue to get worse Before it gets any better. I'm sorry but You've still so many challenges to face and stages to deal with.

With that said:
Slow Down. YOU may feel like you HAVE to make these decisions Today!
However, the truth is you DO NOT!
You are the one that has options. You have time.
Step back and let your mind catch up with your emotions. (Believe me its way way behind at this point).
So take some deep breaths....slow down and begin to sort through what the options are that will bring you some relief, grant you some space to think..........yet are short of filing for D.

********************************
As far as the AD goes...........if you need them , GET them.
They are not a crutch ......they are a tool, and when used correctly can be a huge benefit.

I too had never used an AD, (or been to a therapist or a psychiatrist) BEFORE finding out about my W's A.
However, once it came out.....I was soooo stressed out that I neglected my health and got pneumonia.
The AD helped me to keep it together.
They are not a cure all. They also do not make you "high"
For me they simply kept the "lows" from being not soooo low, and let me rebound from them more quickly.

I also had to get some medicine for sleeping. (Because as ALL I did was think about the A, I wasn't getting any). I was averaging about 2 hours a night for the first month.
So I had to get one for the day and one to put me to sleep.
I got off of both after about 4 months and haven't needed any again. Yea!

Note:
I took Effexor for the depression & was on Remeron for sleeping.

So do yourself a favor at the current stage & place your in.........get them IF you need them.

You hang in there...others have done this and so can YOU.
We're here....

CV, did your H take Lexapro when on the HepC treatment? I'm going to call my medical dr. tomorrow to ask for an AD script. If you know what your H was taking, it's probably least dangerous for the liver, and I'll mention its name to my MD. I'm sure he'll check with my Hepc specialist too to decide which one to give me.

After you mentioned "Not Just Friends" I started reading parts of it. It helps too and I'd like WH to take a look at parts of it, especially where it describes the post-trauma emotions and the need for honesty. I don't think he has any idea of the pain I'm in. Do you know where in the book you found the section on determining if the betrayal was a fluke or part of the WH's character? I'm afraid it's in his character/personality but I want to know for certain if possible.

Weaver, thanks for the heads up about fatigue. That's one of the HepC symptoms I've got so if it gets worse on the AD I'll give it some time in the hope that it improves. At this point I'll take the extra fatigue if it helps stabilize my emotions.

top rope, SD, I hear what you're telling me..... Wow, I've never felt such a crazy range of emotions. It's probably worse because I've got some pent up grief and anger about losing my other family members and that's coming out now too. It helps so much to learn that these emotions are to be expected. Is there a sequence to the stages (discovery, shock, fear, anger, guilt, remorse, ect,.) ? Does a person flit back and forth between them with full intensity or do you let go of each stage as you pass through it?

It's good to hear that I SHOULD NOT make a permanent decision for awhile. Please keep pounding that at me! I don't want to make the decision now, but when the emotions are flying it seems like a quick fix and it's NOT. THANKS.

Any suggestions on how I can encourage him to talk? I understand that he's in the fog, I don't know if he's still attached to her. I don't know if he has any idea of what I feel.

haywire

I hate to tell you this, but you may have seen many refer to all this as a "roller coaster ride". It's exactly that. Different aspects of the whole thing just pop into your mind at different times and evoke all of the emotions you described.

Just hang on, and try to emotionally detach from all of it as best you can. Think of it as a bad movie you are watching, and don't get sucked in to feeling you HAVE to respond to every emotion that flys through your head.

This process takes way more time and patience than you will ever believe you have the strength to endure. But there are many here who have done it, so it's not unachievable. But it's hard.

Somehow, like CV55, your strength is shown in your writing. I'm so thrilled she's come to post to you, because it was like reading her saga all over when you came aboard. Not many can indentify so closely to what you are going through, and CV has powerful insight into her own feelings.

Something CV may now realize, and it will be helpful, perhaps, for you to know... there are many LURKERS here, not posting for whatever reason, but they followed CV's thread and drew strength from her posts. I know in my heart, there are people following your story like they did hers. And know they are all silently pulling for you. And they will draw strength from your posts, as well.

You have what it takes to do this. You came onboard at the "right" time, too, and haven't made a bunch of mistakes I and others have made because we didn't find MB and this forum until after we'd make many crucial mistakes. I LoveBusted my FWW without mercy for a while, until I understood Plan A. That probably cost me a few months in getting to recovery.

May God grant you peace and serenity to help you deal with this.

Best wishes

SD

PS I forgot to answer your questions... Any suggestions on how I can encourage him to talk? I understand that he's in the fog, I don't know if he's still attached to her. I don't know if he has any idea of what I feel.

Yes, he's in the fog. Yes, he's probably attached to her still. No, he has little idea what you are feeling.

Minimize relationship talks with him right now. Learn and understand all about Plan A. Your Giver will have to go into high gear, and you should expect NOTHING from him, regarding apologies, remorse, sorrow, or intelligent relationship talk. He's likely unable to comprehend the damage he's done.

You will quickly learn when the fog is in place, and when it clears for a moment. Fog stays in place throughout withdrawal; ie, him beginning NC with OW, and making a committment to recovering the marriage. Many times the WS will promise NC, but the addiction is so strong, it's hard for them to be successful.

Be thinking of some reasonable boundries that will protect you, yet not force you to "take a stand" while you Plan A.

Sorry, this got long, and is a lot for you to digest. Stay strong, haywire!

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

haywire -

You are getting good advice here. Take you time, reclaim your home and your life. You will be up and down, and all over the place.

When you are down, lean on us. I have been going through this for 16 months, and most days now are good.

You can get through this too, and have a wonderful life.

SD, ah hah! (where's the lightbulb icon?) the roller coaster . Are we BS's in a fog too? How did I miss that? I like the trick of pretending it's a bad movie...detachment. Used it tonight and it helped.

Okay, I can see his fog, can see him struggling with detaching from her. He said tonight that it's going to take some time to get through this. That I need to "calm down"...he's "probably just going through a mid-life crisis and in a month it'll probably be over". Well, at least he's admitting something. And he is making an effort. He's been at home and/or our studio most of the time the last few days, when he could have "justified" being with OW for work purposes. Especially since she's working at his friend's place. I don't know of any specific time he's been with her since last Tuesday. He probably has, but he could have spent much more time there.

"expect NOTHING from him, regarding apologies, remorse, sorrow, or intelligent relationship talk. He's likely unable to comprehend the damage he's done. " Those words are strangely comforting. Of course he can't understand the most obvious logic now, he's not capable (another lightbulb!)...What about after this is over? Sometimes I read about WS's in recovery that realize how foolishly they acted during withdrawal. Do almost all of them get to that point? Or can a WS recover and still not realize how crazy their fog-logic was?

Yes, I'm very lucky that CV has posted here! Our situations are so much alike... Betrayal is horrific enough and we're faced with the added pain of having naively welcomed the OP into OUR lives. It's more heavy baggage to toss around. Thank you for sharing your stark wisdom, CV.

SD, thanks, it's nice to be grouped with CV when speaking of strength. I don't know if I deserve it yet but maybe someday I'll get there.

SD, you mentioned "reasonable boundaries" during Plan A. Can you help me understand? Some examples? Weak/zero boundaries are a problem of mine (in case you hadn't noticed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Believer, thank you. You give me hope. Loneliness is such a painful part of this whole thing. Knowing I can come to this safe supportive place when I need it most is a lifesaver.

<small>[ July 25, 2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>

Haywire, I'm going away again and will be back on Friday. I might be able to post in the morning if the family doesn't badger me for being on the computer before we leave.

I asked H your question and he said his hepatologist(sp?) put him on Wellbutrin. He also has been on SSRIs prescribed by his internist, but they totally screwed up our sex life. Something else that made him susceptable to OW. The best thing you can do is talk to your doctor. Because of the sexual dysfunction I switched from Lexapro, which I really liked, to Wellbutrin. I hated it. Wellbutrin isn't great if you have anxiety. I'm actually pretty laid back but that stuff made me feel like I had electrical currents running through my body. I ended up seeing a psychiatrist about a month ago who put me on another Wellbutrin. I think it is 150 mg extended release and 10 mg Lexapro, instead of the 20 I was on. This seems to be working. They want you to stay on this stuff for a year, and at that point I hope to get off. Everyone is different in what AD works for them. H takes 3 Wellbutrin tabs a day, the same med I was on originally. The SSRIs like Paxil do cause sexual dysfunction.

Concerning sleep if you are having a problem. I didn't sleep for at least a few months after d-day. I tried Ambien, which put me to sleep, but then I woke up in the middle of the night. H had some med that totally wacked me out, and him too. My doc prescribed a drug that was really good for me. It helped me sleep without the tiredness the next day. It's 15 mg Temazepam, 1-2 at bedtime. So are you being treated for the Hep C now? When H was they didn't realize how the drugs cause depression. A few years ago a psychiatrist told me that now they often put people on an AD before the treatment even starts.

Now to your situation. You have to take this one step at a time if you decide to fight the fight. SD I think said withdrawal doesn't even begin until NC is established. He was right. Some people are able to Plan A while the A is still going on. I knew I wasn't going to be able to do that and so told him the "B" has to go, period! She worked for that one month and H made sure they were never alone in the building. It was hell. I wanted her out yesterday, but he needed her to train the new person. When she left I thought "Great, now withdrawal can begin." A month into it I found out he asked her to come to the FH to talk once and say goodbye. He then proceeded to call her every other day for 2 weeks until he was so guiltridden he told me. If your H is like mine it will be very hard for him to let go. We'll talk more about that if you get to that place on the roller coaster ride.

Another similarity! My family has been using H's FH back when his grandfather started the business. All my grandparents, my parents, aunts and uncles have been laid out there. Almost all of their sexual activity took place in that building. It still makes me sick. I feel like that was my home, and my family's, and they made it a disgusting place. If I could I'd change funeral homes. I know if we don't work out I sure as HE$$ will.

Hope all goes well with your doctor. Take Care! CV

Haywire, in "Not Just Friends" the part you're interested in is on page 276. CV

Hi Haywire,
I have been reading your posts and I juast want to send you a big hug. I am so gald you ahve found MB, but sorry for the reason that you are here.

The advice to not make any life changing decisions is spot on. If I had my marriage would have ended then and there. My mother in law and my doctor both gave me this advice. It gave me the time to get over the initial shock and permission to feel what I was feeling rather than pressure myself into making any decision about the future.

Only you know Haywire what you can deal with and what is best for you. This is a marriage building site and so most of the advice will be in the direction of giving tools to help recover your relationship with your husband IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT. If that is not to be, the people here are great with support and assistance in recovering ourselves.

As you can see by my signature, the affair in my marriage was also a very long standing one, occured between H and someone who was my close friend and was played out under my very naive nose.

Ans although my initial instincts were to end my marriage thinking it was unsalvageable, I am now getting close to three years of recovery with my husband. It has not been easy, especially early on and I'm not saying that there are not days that I still stew about it, but my marriage is good and I am happy that we are together.

I won't say a lot more now. The ADs are a step in the right direction. Temazepam also worked in the sleep department for me. I took Zoloft for a while, but eventually was able to stop. The actually gave me diarrhoea and affected me in the sex department (lets say it took me soooo long to get there). I also needed to remember to eat. I had to force myself to eat. Please listen to the advice on these concerns. I didn't and was almost put into hospital before I admitted to myself that I couldn't function on no sleep, food and in a constatn state of panic attacks and anxiety. Counseling is a good step and if your H won't go IC is great for you. Read the books.

Anyway, I am here to help if I can. I am not sure about the plan A approach in such a long drawn out affair. It is good to be the best you that you can be, and to expose the affair. But in my Hs case I think the affair had been going on for so long and I had been very much taken for granted a s always going to be there, that it was the sudden realisation of the fact that he might lose me that jolted my H into reality. I found Dobson's love must be tough approach very helpful.

Anyway look after youself and your daughter.
Love C&S

CV, Thanks for the info on ADs. I've got an appointment with my MD tomorrow to get a prescription and will mention it. I'm not undergoing HepC treatment yet...Type 1a, it's unlikely I'd respond to current treatment and am not anxious to experience the sides. Biopsy and liver function tests show that my liver's not too screwed up yet so I'm biding time waiting for a better treatment to be available. I'm due for another biopsy in the fall which could change the outlook depending on the results.

Oh CV, I know too well the disgust you felt about the A contaminating your family's sacred places. It adds a whole other dimension of disrespect and revulsion.

Confused&scared, thanks, the cyber-hugs do feel good. I am making myself eat more and have gained a couple of pounds (never expected to be in a condition where that's a good thing). I met with the IC yesterday and felt much more calm afterwards. Last night I thought of SD's trick of "it's just a bad movie" as WH babbled on and on and on about what a poor job we've done as parents because DD's apartment is messy. (I agree, it's like a dorm room but -- not a word about the A he carried/carries on all around her...HELLO????)

Your words really hit home: "I am not sure about the plan A approach in such a long drawn out affair. It is good to be the best you that you can be, and to expose the affair. But in my Hs case I think the affair had been going on for so long and I had been very much taken for granted a s always going to be there, that it was the sudden realisation of the fact that he might lose me that jolted my H into reality. I found Dobson's love must be tough approach very helpful".

I don't know if I (or he) will end up wanting this marriage to survive, but in cases like yours and mine I think you're very right. As long as I'm still here plan A'ing, WH is clinging to the hope that he can still cake-eat albeit not as conveniently as it was. He needs a wake up call. It's so involved, with his business being based here at our home, but my first step is to leave for a few days....I'm going to visit relatives Thursday through Sunday. Monday he goes to an out of state show for two weeks where he'll be with OW. DD will also be there. What a screwed up mess. I plan to tell him that as long as he has contact with OW, I won't have contact with him. He'll probably think that's great.

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: haywire ]</small>