Hi to you all,

I wrote this last night, but did not feel like turning the computer on again. I am heading out the door for fishing.

Hi to you all,

It is late Tuesday evening and I am going snorkeling and fishing with the 3DS tomorrow so I will be off line for a few days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">believer
What you need to do is notify OM's wife ASAP. That is the MB program. She deserves to know. Just do it.

I have told RAP the same thing about SF, just do it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can’t do this without her agreement. I don’t know the family as well as she does and I am not at peace with the decision. You (and others) may think it is wrong, but you are only reading what I am typing. Not seeing what I am seeing. I WILL tell as a last resort and that point is getting close. I will also let RAP know BEFORE I do because I have promised her this.

As far as SF goes, RAP has had a problem in this area for some time. A problem that I have contributed to. This was an issue before the affair and I do not feel that NOW is the time to solve it. PLEASE STOP TELLING RAP TO JUST DO IT. IT IS NOT WHAT I WANT RIGHT NOW. What I have wanted from her is:

- Consideration for my need to protect my feelings too.
- A little leniency and forgiveness for being angry.
- Willingness to back down when we are angry. I mean BOTH of us here.
- Some words or gestures of appreciation for what I am having to go through while she is in the fog.
- REAL NC.

That’s really it. She has good days and bad days. It just SEEMS like more of the bad.

To believer,

RAP said that you told her to NOT leave her house. I am not preparing for a D, I am trying to save my M. RAP has not instilled a lot of confidence in me that she can maintain NC. Her claim is that as long as I was there, it was OK. She had NC with him other than seeing him drive by and he called her a few times for the month of June. My side is she broke physical NC 3 to 5 hrs after I headed down the road. Both are true. She did maintain NC while I was there, but she did BREAK it soon after I left.

Why I want her to move in with her FIL is this. Since she is struggling with NC and doesn’t agree with calling OMW yet, my only option to ENSURE NC, at least physical, is if she leaves the town we live in. I am trying to get another job, but it is difficult. I can’t really do that a work and RAP and I get busy with 3DS and dealing with A in the evenings. My FIL has offered his home for RAP and 3DS to finish summer in, longer if need be. My plan is to send her to FIL home with 3DS while I stay at our home where I can really concentrate on relocating the whole family: finding different job, selling house, etc. 3DS love Grandpa and would enjoy it. Only negative is what RAP says. Partly true, partly bad memories on her part. Given her recent behavior, I don’t think she really should have much choice in the matter. I haven’t finalized this decision because I wouldn’t do that without speaking face to face with her and we have only been talking on the phone. As far as I am concerned, it DOESN’T have to be FILs house. It ONLY has to be NOT in the town we live in. She insists she remain in her home. At this point, and we haven’t talked face to face yet, that is a NO-GO for the M to continue. Is that unreasonable? I am curious as to why you feel she should not leave her home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">betrayedinjersey:
You're well spoken, and very patient, I trust you will not be evil in your unveiling. You have to if you want to save the marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BIJ. I don’t THINK I am. I don’t know. I don’t have anyone saying I am being evil, except for RAP. Scary thing is she knows me best and I don’t like the thought of that. But she is also in the fog and is resenting the steps I feel I must now take. Please continue to question my motives if I say something that doesn’t sound right. I am hurt and confused, too. I just don’t know what else to do besides D and I don’t want that.

Rich,

Thanks a lot for the input and your continued support. Also thanks for your candor. You and ow seem so similar to RAP and I and I draw a lot of hope from your success. You have been a good friend to me. And a good inspiration.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> True about the ToDo list, though I never wrote "sex" on it. If I was in the mood, I'd rub her back and hope to get lucky. Sometimes I did, most times not. The sad part is that it was just sex then. There was no love, very little sharing. It seemed like she just appeased me, get in, get out and clean up. Sad but true.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Much the same in my case, ministering physical affection, back rubs, etc, hoping to get lucky. I tried very hard not to pressure her, as her male role models were not the best. I think I pulled it off, not pressuring her, most times. She would have to really comment. But the tension about the issue – her THINKING I was wondering, was probably an indirect pressure. I told her it wasn’t and it wasn’t most times. But I can see where that is hard to believe.

Interesting question for her – how much was OM like her male role models? I can’t answer that as I have not met him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My goal was to be able to retire from my job in 6 years. Then I could just become a gentlemen farmer:) THAT WAS ALL I WAS FOCUSED ON</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have also focused on my career. Many times, she holds career moves against me. Usually when she is angry so I don’t know if she means it or not. Did you feel appreciated for your hard work? I rarely did. I mean I did AT work, which is probably why it was easy to work the long hours. Not really from RAP. I don’t think she yet understands what a job is like. Or the pressure on the primary breadwinner. I would come home and she could SEE the tension in my face. Her typical response was “I hate what that job is doing to you.” Or something like that. Kind of seemed selfish to me. Like she wanted me ready to be good at home. But she needed that so it is not selfish. I seldom heard “I really appreciate what you are going through for us.” I occasionally got the “Don’t bug your father, he had a hard day.” To the 3DS. Didn’t feel REALLY appreciated.

Here is a REAL INTERESTING question: Can WORK be an EA? I mean, can appreciation from boss/peers be considered an EA, since it really has the same effect on the spouse at home?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My oldest daughter just now seems to be 'warming' up to me. I was distant to her as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am so sorry for that for you. RAP and I focused a lot on the 3DS so they ARE very close to me. Our biggest mistake was we did that to the exclusion of each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I too had many of the above thoughts. But about the emotional and physical side of sex, I was so focused on my goals that the fact we did not have an emotional side alluded me. I didn't even see it was missing. (That's the side I have terribly missed once the A was brought to the light of day.) We have a few times that have been absolutely beautifil since dday, but we've had to work at it. The strange thing for me has been that I hardly able to satisfy the physical side by myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw the emotional side gone before the A. Sometimes RAP would give when she didn’t want to. It hurt because you can tell. I guess I LBd back then because I didn’t hide it. I mean I wasn’t mean, I would just tell her after that it was much better when the emotional attachment was there. I guess I wanted her to know that I didn’t like the idea of using her and didn’t want her to feel like she had to for those reasons. From what a lot of people have been saying, it seems that maybe she did. Just felt wrong to me. Maybe that was wrong.

Agree with the sex drive after. Self-gratification or not. Desire is NOT there. I can’t understand why everyone keeps telling RAP to just BE with me, and I keep saying that’s not what I want right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could have left but didn't. It took some time, but I came to the realization she made a mistake. We're only human. Plus, I'm not perfect and she has put up with a lot from me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto. I do consider it a mistake. We have been heated on the phone lately. She keeps telling me I think she is a slut or whore or less than dirt. I keep saying she made a bad choice. I may have said that in a fight early on, I don’t remember. I truly think it was a mistake and I just want my wife back. I am getting tired of extending grace to have it fly back in my face.

NCWalker

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

<small>[ September 30, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Nc Walker,

Been keeping up on your posts & RAP's as well, but till now have been a silent observer.
Seems that you've BOTH been getting plenty of help and insight.
What a ride!
However, silent no more after this past weekends "highlights"

Let's quickly review:
You are ready to move, get a new job, even seriously contemplate a D....& yet you STILL WILL NOT contact this OM's wife?????
Are you kidding me?

Of course RAP does not want this.
AS proven this holiday (for whom) she is still wanting to carry that spark, that hope, that chance for them to be together....whenever.
Is your idea of a healthy M for one S to be the jailer of the other to forcibly keep them faithful?
Of course not! Then DO something about it! You'll never be there 24/7.

Do you get that your strategy is NOT Working?
The A is still ongoing as we sit here and type. IT must end. And YOU Have the Power to do it.

Yes, the light of day must be exposed to this.
You've been here at MBers long enough to know this.
Its one of the main principles: No recovery can begin until the A is ended.

Sadly, your also finding out that she can't (won't?) end it.

Indeed, Start with the OMW, but I'm sure his employer would agree that its not *Good Business* to be "doing" the married clients (since you claim it started there).

The bubble must be burst........the fantasy must END. By any means necessary. Only you can do this. Sad but true.
Sorry, but OMW can't (she doesn't know) and RAP & OM don't want to. (They like things the way they are).

The pattern:
IT happens , she says "ooppss, I'm sorry".... your mad.....you cool off.......then "ooppps, I'm sorry" and ON and ON.

RAP and OM are happy that you've agreed to be a coconspirator to their A.
They appreciate you bearing the entire burden of trying to cope with their Selfish choices. Also for being understanding enough to see things THEIR way.
In addition, OMW can................................

YOU know what? YOUR right.
You don't want to read this. You don't need any advise. So let me try and just close this

There is so MUCH more that could (& should) be said about exposer..........but my instincts tell me what's the use. IMO pointing out the benefits of this action would be a continued waste of time. So lecture on that over.

Unfortunately, you've BEEN given this crucial advise before and dismissed it (not right time, RAP doesn't want it, ect.,).
You have Already made up your mind on this topic and who are any here to question your wisdom.
It's working out so far (NOT). So just continue doing what your doing.

Shaking head as I type.

You haven't even come Close to doing ALL you can to put an end to this.
So either take the action you already know is needed or just let it go.
Stop standing in this NO mans land... (its destroying you).

Truly hope you start taking the actions necessary to heal your M. (Perhaps this weekend is the jolt you need to make the call).
Remember its like school...master and pass 1st grade BEFORE going on to 2nd.
Cause like it or not UNTIL the A stops (meaning TOTAL NC) then all the rest won't add up to a hill of beans.
You'll just be stuck in this continued cycle of frustration.
Consider stopping it Now. Please.

NOT sorry for the message, but do regret my tone (& letting my anger come out). You just really got my dander up fella.
Take care & Enjoy the fish.

<small>[ July 06, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: top rope ]</small>

NC, Another silent observer here. I cannot begin to tell you how heartwrenching it was to follow you and RAP's posts this weekend. Your posts in particular could be the posts of my H's oldest friend whose wife was as deeply fogged as RAP.

Because this friend refuses to read the MB recommended books or visit the web site, the only positive imput he has had to restore his marriage has been from us. Both his and her family advised him to dump her, ASAP.

For FIVE months we explained, begged, pleaded with him to tell OM's wife. He did not want to P/O his wife off any further and of course she was able to continue sporatic contact including sex.

Two weeks ago he finally gave in and went to talk to OM's wife. It was the hardest thing, he said he was shaking the whole time. The wife took the news fairly calmly, told him she needed a few days to think about what to do. He didn't hear from her for a week and it turns out she didn't do much thinking. Ten minutes after our friend left she got on the phone and made the OM come home from work and read him the riot act.

Because WW and OM had arranged a "date" to meet the following Saturday, OM had to send someone else to tell her it was over. She was devastated but not as devastated as when she found out that the OM had cried like a baby, groveled and told his wife it was a mistake ect. FWW HATES THE OM NOW. Don't you want to be able to say that, too?

If our friend had told the OM's wife 5 months ago it would have been 5 months less agony for him. It would have been 5 months less of listening in on phone calls in which they declared their love and desire for each other, 5 months less of sexual contact, 5 months of at least the opportunity to rebuild the marriage.

He says he feels like a huge weight has been lifted off his shoulders. The ball is now in HIS court, because despite the fact that his AND her entire family knew what was happening she would not stop sneaking around to see this fool. It was only OM's immediate dismissal of FWW that sliced through her fog.

Don't be wasting any MORE precious time, NC. Talk is cheap, you must take action now. Please take Top Rope's advice, please listen to all the FWW's (and BS's) who have posted to you to reveal the A, myself included. We know what we are talking about, WE HAVE BEEN THERE ALREADY!

It is NOT about RAP's feelings, it is NOT her call, it is YOURS alone. You don't need to POJA this, you do not need to ask for permission from anyone!

Do not sit there wringing your hands asking what (more) can I do? That sort of talk is extremely frustrating to read. You have been told over and over what you must do. SO NC, DO IT. You will feel so much better. RAP will feel temporarily worse but that's OK. (sorry, RAP)

You two need a chance to reconnect without the spectre of "fabulous" OM lurking in RAP's head. He's an a**w*pe and she needs to be freed of her fantasy. So free her, do what you need to end this once and for all. OM will always come back for a quick dip in your wife's pool until this happens. There is nothing stopping him and you and RAP don't have a chance in h*ll to recover until you do.

NC please, do not delay, take care of business the MB way and start TRULY moving forward! We are ALL pulling for you guys, KB

<small>[ July 07, 2004, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: knewbetter ]</small>

NC & RAP,

You know, I think it's time to call in the experts here.

You can call the Harley's today and make an appointment. I counseled with Steve Harley, and it made an immediate difference in our marriage.

My H and I were unable to navigate through the counter-intuitive landmines of recovery without his expert advice.

Cost $$$, but cheaper than divorce, saved our family, our children and the unbelieveable pain of trying to sort it out on our own.

NC - Steve will tell RAP exactly what she needs to do to save your marriage. He'll also tell you what NOT to do to undermine her efforts unconsciously.

You can call - as a BS I made the first call. SH talked to both me and my husband on the first call. After that call we committed to counseling with him until we no longer needed him.

Steve made it clear to me that he would work with my H until it was safe for me to TRUST him again. Trust for my H was shattered, but I trusted Steve to let me know when he felt my husband was trustworthy again. Steve protected me from my husband until my husband could protect me from himself.

I have two beautiful boys, and a healthy relationship with my husband. I am so glad I counseled with Steve. I doubt we could have made it without him. I can't describe how wonderful it is to be on the other side of infidelity - to be one of the ones who "made it".

I can see and understand your pain...RAP is definitely in pain. She deserves an honorable way out of this mess - but she needs an expert coach to guide her on this journey.

NCW: I think I agree with CSue. I have felt so inadequate in responding to you and RAP the last two days. Sharing what onlywords and I have gone through hasn't been enough. I know it has to be even harder being apart.

Might be a good time to give the Harley's a call and at least check it out.

I know from my situation, and you know the goal I am/was working on has basically been put on hold. As far as spending money, I've always pretty much been tight, well, I opened up the purse. Whatever it took, to buy the books, etc. My benefits are pretty good so I only had to worry about copays.

One of my triggers was the couch, it has since been replaced. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if we hadn't broken through recently, I might have resorted to bringing in the Harley's. Good luck you two.