maybe i should have learned more than i have by now. JL, i know there have been times when you have specifically written out how to make a plan for my life in order to get things in a good state, and i have not been successful in using your advice.

so why am i trying to reach out here again? i really don't know. supposedly i did this really great thing by confessing, supposedly our marriage should be getting stronger than ever (not that anyone guarenteed anything).

H and I talked last night. basically he asked me many times how could i have done this, how could i have put his life at risk, how could i have continued for so long, then he went back to when we were dating, how could i have taken him to that one party and let him meet a person that i had once slept with (prior to knowing H)? and then he went into my HS past (long before i knew H)... how could i have continued to have sex after getting pregnant once (yes i got pregnant while in HS, twice actually and i had abortions both times) how could you? how could you?

i cannot answer any of his questions in a way that helps him feel any better. anything i say results in "that does nothing for me".

our talks are destructive and then they just end abruptly which him saying he is tired. he goes to bed and falls asleep very quickly. i'm left feeling worthless and like scum. and yet he says he does not want to divorce either. when i ask why, he will say, because he thinks we belong together. he has still not read anything.

JL, you posed these questions to me before:

1. Let's take this from a very selfish point of view. What would be a good or perfect world to you? close/fun relationship with H. happy children. job wise, this one is good, not perfect but given the benefits it brings to my family it is good enough. not being on the verge of tears all the time.

2. How would you go about achieving this world? (well that is certainly the million $$ question, dont ya think?)

for happy children... that is not really that hard when i am around. they just like to have interaction. son wishes i would enjoy sport games more, like hitting soccer ball or throwing football more

3. In the process how would you deal with your children's requirements? not sure what you mean here... are you assuming my perfect world has be being a teacher and therefore due to the financial implications i have to work out how to deal with the lower salary while still providing for the kids. if so, that is not an issue, i am not going to try to persue being a teacher at this time, maybe in about 5-7yrs.

4. What time frame would you like to do this? for the close/fun relationship with my H and having happy children, now.

5. Do you need help from anyone to acheive these goals? If so who, and how much? for the kids, i have the ability on my own to make their lives good. granted i am not around during the day and for that it helps when H can provide a positive environment.

6. If your H decided not to join you on your adventure of life, would it really bother you? If so why? yes. i want to share my life with him. i cannot live with being married but not close anymore.

7. If he would not join you, what are your options? i know i do not want to divorce. all i can truely do is work on not wanting the type of marriage relationship that i invision and learn to be happy with whatever our best can be.

8. How will you test and evalutate these options? good question... my thought is to answer, based on how i feel on an average day.

9. How much money would you need to live if you quit your job and took up teaching? that question does not need to be answered.

10. Do you need your H's contributions or are they just icing on the cake? financially i would be totatlly fine on my own.

11. Could you downsize and still enjoy life? If so how would you do that? What would have to happen? Do you need H's help to make these decisions or take action? again, if i stay put, there is not need to do anything.

12. Do you love your H? If so why? as i answered before. yes because i am choosing to do so.


i am answering these questions too superficially, these answers are not going to get me anywhere.

i feel lost/worthless/unfixable. i am so tired of waking up feeling so down all the time!!! i try to pray, specifically asking God to help me be more positive and grateful for the good in my life. i'm not making any progress. theses days i am really questioning if i truely believe in God. Its like i do in general, but not for me in particular. which is contradictory. i do not think God cares about me in particular. i just feel so lost.


you also posted...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FL, noticed I have not said a thing about your A. Notice I have not really said much about your H other than his golf. Why? I don't think you can find happiness in your marriage no matter what your H does or doesn't do, until you find at least some satisfaction within your self, and hopefully you will find some happiness as well.

If you step back and look at things you have had more than a few successes. Your children to date are doing well. You are and have succeeded in your profession. Those two things alone consume most of your waking hours. The marriage needs work, the love life needs work (that goes hand in hand with the marriage). But, I think that if you start to face the reality of your decisions, and the choices you have made career wise and family wise. You will find you are NOT in a bad situation now, and you do have a list of successes.

Let's get this stuff straight before you attack the marriage issue. My bet is that if you get a few of things under control in your mind, you will be happier, you will smile more, you will relax, you will sleep better, and your H will be sitting there wondering "WHAT HAPPENED?" Then he may be receptive to your ovetures of rebuilding the marriage.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my head knows you are right. my situation could be a lot worse... why can't i find comfort in that and just relax and enjoy life.

Why ask why? Why ask how?

why am i trying to reach out here again?

how could i have done this

how could i have put his life at risk

how could i have continued for so long

how could i have taken him to that one party

how could i have continued to have sex after getting pregnant

how could you?

how could you?

i ask why, he will say, because he thinks we belong together

why can't i find comfort in that and just relax and enjoy life.

This is an exercise in circular communication ....

Why? I don't know. Why don't you know? Because, that's why.

How about you step off the "why" merry-go-round and do something besides ask each other questions no one can answer?


Pep

i'ld love to pep, but he wants answers.

FL,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my head knows you are right. my situation could be a lot worse...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I am right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> why can't i find comfort in that and just relax and enjoy life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The answer to that is obvious permit me to quote you again. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i feel lost/worthless/unfixable. i am so tired of waking up feeling so down all the time!!! i try to pray, specifically asking God to help me be more positive and grateful for the good in my life. i'm not making any progress. theses days i am really questioning if i truely believe in God. Its like i do in general, but not for me in particular. which is contradictory. i do not think God cares about me in particular. i just feel so lost. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, you are defining yourself by your H's responses to you. You need to stop that. You need to decide what you enjoy in life, take pleasure in what you do well, and LIVE LARGE. Your H's thoughts on this are really inconsequential. What I mean your feelings about yourself, don't match up with the reality that you are successful in the workplace and your are successful with your children. So where does this negative stuff come from??? It comes from your H's feelings.

Did you notice the questions he asked you. They were about your past, a past by the way that he largley did not share with you. Not only can you do nothing about the past, it is really beyond anything that should affect him. Your affair affected him, but his behavior as an H affected your feelings about the marriage. Oh the web we weave... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My point is this. You need to stop defining yourself by your H. He has no more clue about stuff than you do, and actually less. He has to decide if he is in or out. You have to decide if you are in or out.

If you both decide you are in, THEN you have every right to expect his help and cooporation in making the marriage something you both enjoy. Your A is irrelevant in this regard. It should be to you and it should be to him. Yes, he will have trust issues, but if he wants in then he MUST agree to allow you to show him you can be trusted.

Your Love is in question, if he is in then he MUST allow you to show him your love. His love is in question, you must allow him to show you that love. And it goes without saying that if you are both in, then you must actually learn to act loving toward one another.

The fact is your A was a consequence of the both of you NOT being very loving to one another, not supporting one another, being too independent in your actions. Sounds weird coming from someone telling you to blow the guy off and realize you don't need him for happiness doesn't it.

Here is where the "ideal" comes in, at least from my point of view. The "ideal" marriage is between to people that don't NEED one another, but have emotionally fused in such a way, that they WANT one another in their lives. They thrive on helping each other, and seeing each succeed at what they try. They SHARE a their lives. Now everyone will add or detract from this but I think you understand what I am saying.

I am saying to you, it is time you stood up for your marriage by telling your H enough is enough. You are sorry for the A, you will do all you can to make him see your love for him and how serious you are, BUT... you have boundaries as well, and he needs to understand them. IF he wants the marriage he needs to get off dead center and let you help him heal. He needs to respect that you are willing to do this. He needs to respect that you do have feelings, and that he can kill your love for him, just as you could do to him.

FL, I don't think the poor wimpering, long suffering W act will fly. It would not with me. I would much prefer a strong woman, who takes responsibility for what she did, but wants to be my partner NOT my suffering W. You see I see it as the suffering is actually hurting me. What shows remorse is actions and you can only act if I stand up and let you. He needs to stand up and let you. Belittling you is not working and you should NOT accept that or the marriage will never be equally yoked.

I know what I am saying sounds like anti-MB, but I truely think you will be happier when you stand up and set your boundaries. He will then know what he has to deal with and he can make an informed decision. He needs to know what type of woman he is dealing with, and frankly you are successful in two out of three things now and I see no reason for you not to be successful in the third as well.

FL, you may not realize this but you have what he needs and he knows it or he would be gone. What he needs is very complicated, but he has not let go. You are in a strong position, not to punish him but to set this right, but you need to set boundaries for this marriage to work. Think about them, talk about them here, and then set them.

Don't tolerate him punishing you. Don't tolerate him talking down to you. Don't tolerate him being less than a full partner.

But do tolerate his lack of trust. Do tolerate that he is emotionally hurt and very uncertain about things. Do tolerate that he is a human being.

Do you see what I am saying? Time to stand up, time to set boundaries. Time to be the W you want to be and expect him to be the H he claims he wants to be.

You can do this and the first step is face reality, you are a person with great worth to yourself, and to your children AND to your H or he would be gone. The data is all there FL. You can run your check codes on it, it is there and it is solid. Use it to stand up and be happy with your life.

Think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Your situation sounds pretty much like mine. My WW has told me she feels like you do. And at this point in the recovery process (less than 3 months for us) I am not sure you will feel any different if you have a consence and feel bad for what you did. I ask my WW the same questions over and over, because I do not understand. We have been married for 20 years. I am the only man she had ever been with. I am 43 she just turned 41. I still do not understand, but I do lover her and when she ask me why I tell her we were ment to be together. You should be better off in your husbands view because you confessed. I had to confront my WW and stop the affair and then she lied to me about it, double deception. I have read After the Affair and How can I frogive you. See if your H will read these books. In the mean time answer his questions, try not to be defensive. YOu need to understand that what you did is very hard for your H to accept and it will take time. Try to meet his emotional needs. Go to MC and spend a lot of time together. Show him that you love him be there for him do little things for him tell him how much you love him and that you will do what ever it takes to make your M work. Tell him you will make it up to him. My WW tells me shw owes me big time and she will spend the rest of her life making up to me for what she did and the fact that I did not throw her out. Instead I said I love you and we will fix this and our M. I have not told a soul about anything especially our 14 yo daughter. Just that we need to work on our M. My WW is greatful that I will not tell any one and she tells me that all the time. Things like that are what you can do and he may start to feel better. You have 1 thing going for you BOTH of you want to work it out. By the way God does love you, pray and ask for forgivness and guidance.

Tellmewhy

Dear FL,

I have to log off now but didn't want to go until I had done a reply to you.

Am sorry for how things are with you at the moment.

I truly don't know what to say to you, except,

I care for you
I care you are struggling
I care you are sad and in pain

I really do. I just wanted you to know that before I log off.

Kas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he wants the marriage he needs to get off dead center and let you help him heal. He needs to respect that you are willing to do this. He needs to respect that you do have feelings, and that he can kill your love for him, just as you could do to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, i am thinking i will start composing a letter, share it here first to make sure i don't say anything the wrong way.

but, here is where i feel i will get stuck...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if he wants the marriage he needs to get off dead center and let you help him heal. He needs to respect that you are willing to do this. He needs to respect that you do have feelings, and that he can kill your love for him, just as you could do to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this will be the hardest part of it. he will say he needs time and that i am not willing to give him the time he is asking for. how do i respond to that??

FL....I'm so sorry that things aren't going well. IMO it sounds like your H still has some very serious issues that he isn't dealing with. I believe that he has got to step up and assume some responsibility in the restoration of your marriage. I think that the letter is a very good idea. I tend to express myself much better that way sometimes and that will also give your h a chance to really think about what you're saying and not get defensive.

I'm sorry that he seems to feel the need to keep punishing you the way he does. My feeling is that he is blaming you for everything that is bothering him and that's not fair. He is going to have to quit blaming you for all of his issues in life and assume responsibility for some things himself.

I'm thinking about you FL!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is where the "ideal" comes in, at least from my point of view. The "ideal" marriage is between to people that don't NEED one another, but have emotionally fused in such a way, that they WANT one another in their lives. They thrive on helping each other, and seeing each succeed at what they try. They SHARE a their lives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that is exactly what i long for. truth is i don't NEED H. i could manage on my own just fine, financially and as a parent. but i want to share my life with him.

all the stuff you wrote about not letting myself see myself thru his eyes, especially right now, makes sense. it's still so hard to do.

now add on the stress of having to come to terms with my childhood, that is what we are digging into in IC. i don't have many memories of my childhood. i know my dad was abusive to some level. when i was little and my parents were married still, i have very little memories, i was 8 when they divorced. the one memory i do have is how i was spanked pretty much everynight after dinner for not eating my dinner. a timer would be put in front of me, and if i didn't finish, he would take me in bathroom and spank me (pants down). i literally had a bruise on my butt the shape of his hand. i am told by my aunt that she felt he physically abused us a lot, she saw a little of it. i have read stuff my brother has written (he is 5yrs older) about how saying dad was strict is a huge understmt. but i've never wanted details. my sister used to in college try to get me to remember more (she was a psyc major) i didn't want to. about 5yrs ago, the same sister claims she now remembers being sexually abused, she did confront dad, dad totally denied it all.

i can't conclude that i have low self-esteem just because i am paying too much attention to how my H sees me right now, although his view of me does impact me very strongly. i know i have had the need to be externally validated long before having marriage problems. i am sure a lot of that is due to childhood scars. scars i really don't even want to know about. i don't want to go back there and live any of it again, i don't want to remember anything. my IC asked me to give myself permission to remember. I really don't want to though. i'm not strong enough, especially now when there is so much turmoil with H too.

i know i have done good at this job, i know i am intellectual and bright. i know i am a loving, caring, fun person. i know i am a good mom.

i'm just not emotionally strong enough anymore. not with a H sitting next to me telling me how horrible i am too. not without some loving support. it's too much!!!

FL, it sounds like you're doing good work in IC. Hard work, but good work. You don't have perfect choices, but you do have choices. Take care of yourself in all the ways you can. Patience is a killer for me, so I understand being frustrated when things don't happen fast enough. Bet you're a difficult patient when you're sick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

FL,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this will be the hardest part of it. he will say he needs time and that i am not willing to give him the time he is asking for. how do i respond to that?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! this is the easiest part. You tell him you will give him time IF he will treat you with respect. You enjoy time with him, so he doesn't need to hurry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He doesn't have to be lovey dovey, but you are still his W, and you do have some boundaries as well. Then specify the boundaries, and tell him simply that you hope he decides to stay, but you and children will survive if he does not. It is really his call with regard to his decisions, just as you must be accountable for your decisions past, present, and future.

Then give him a peck on the cheek, smile, and leave.

He has his time, you WILL get your boundaries set because you know what he knows, you don't NEED him to live, but you would love to live with him if he wants to love you as you do him.

No, LB's, things stated clearly, and as Pep said No questions that have no answers.

You can do this FL. This is part of respecting him and he respecting you.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 08, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

FL-

There is so much I want to say to you right now…

However, I believe that advice is better given by many others on this board…

First of all, I’m an idiot…(oops, gotta be careful, believer has me in a time-out on another thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

But I am…

And I don’t feel that I am in a position to give any advice.

I’m also not very vebose…

I can’t really express myself the way I would want you to hear me…

I do want you to know that I feel your pain…

Your despair…

DeNovo said it best…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FL, it sounds like you're doing good work in IC. Hard work, but good work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man, is it hard!!!

Hang in there…

It will get easier soon…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">p.s. i LOVE Bruce Almighty!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i do not think God cares about me in particular. i just feel so lost.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should watch it again…
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FinallyLearning:
<strong> i'ld love to pep, but he wants answers. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excuse me..... there is no answer that will satisfy him.... every answer you give to one of these questions gives birth to the ~next~ "why?" or the following "how?".....

My son asks, "How come my birthmother took drugs when I was in her womb?"

And, I have given him various answers, guesses, philosophical points of view.... and NONE satisfy his soul.

This is a bottomless pit of questions where every possible answer will fail to relieve the angst ......

looking backwards ...... questioning backwards ...... this is the "lost" you mention in your thread title.

You cannot find your direction from the past.... turn around, look in front of you.... then make a step into the future.

You're a really smart woman.... use your assets.

Pep

thanks to all for their replies yesterday. i feel like i have some power again to make a positive difference in my life. i have written a letter to my H but i am not done yet. i will share it when it is finished to make sure i am not being disrespectful or unloving at all.

the letter is turning out to be long and it attempts to once again answer his questions and then request he stays within some boundaries.

JL, you are right, i really have to fight against letting my Hs view of me right now impact my view of me. i struggle with bad self-worth anyway. i feel like i am making progress sometimes until i fall apart when H is hard on me too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to decide what you enjoy in life, take pleasure in what you do well, and LIVE LARGE. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i am quoting this for the sole purpose of getting ME to read it again. I whole-heartedly agree with the above. I CAN control the outcome of my life and i CAN choose to be happy irregardless of what is happening around me. it may be a lot harder when what is happening around me is difficult stuff but i CAN still choose to be a happy fun loving person (believe it or not, i used to be just that the majority of the time!!!)

tellmewhy, thank you very much for sharing!!! i hope there is a time when you can come to understand why it happened in your life. i hope you will read my letter when it is done. i know it will not relate to you at all, since every relationship is different, but i sure would like to know your thoughts on what i wrote.

Pep, bv, lisa, denovo, robby, thank you all for your support. i really needed it all yesterday!! i am so glad i posted. it made a big difference to how the day ended up for me. H was golfing with son, i had a nice dinner/evening with daughter. the boys got home about 9:30 and we all went to bed pretty quickly but by then i had read everything here and my spirits were lifted and i was able to be positive around H. I did already tell him, as we cuddled, that i really don't want him to bring back my HS past anymore, that i felt that was not fair, that i was totally open to him about all that stuff back then (because i trusted him with my insides and i wanted him to fully know me). to have him repeatedly ask me now, how could you have done that, does not feel good. i know he had a hard time when i first told him about it. he almost broke up over it, but then HE decided he still wanted to be with me. for that reason, it is not fair of him to throw it back in my face now. i also told him to no longer state that it i must view having O as the most important thing and more important than having a true relationship. I told him I want him to express his feelings to me, but not to make statement/judgements of what I believe is important. He seemed to understand and agree.

but now i realize two things.

1) maybe the HS stuff is coming up in his mind because he fears since i got pregnant a second time, i will cheat on him again.

2) that i cheated cuz i didn't have O very often (in fact very rarely) with him?? alhtough i really am not sure he knows this. (i know, how can that possible be that a H does not know? well, i blame myself for that more than him, ok, actually i blame us both. i blame myself for not communicating more what was lacking for me, i blame him for not caring and for telling me that i am too difficult. but i also don't really care about any of that anymore. of course the point is, maybe he is caring about that now.

something for me to reflect more on...

robby, i own bruce almighty <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> you are right, i will definitely watch it this weekend!!! i wanted to watch it last night but my copy is at our vacation house and blockbuster was out. i also tried to find City Slickers II, Where Dreams may come, Michael, Defending your Life (that is an OLDDDDD one) . but none of them were in!!! I ended up bringing home Mona Lisa Smile, but didn&#8217;t watch it yet.

I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

well pep, i just read your response and i do agree and would love to just look FORWARD!!! but i don't think i can force H to be ready to do just that yet. i know i cannot ever really answer his questions to satisfy his soul, like you said about your son. the only thing that would do that would be if it never happened, but as we all know, the past cannot be changed.

i think when i give him the note i will tell him this is my best shot at explaining what was going on in my head through out that whole time. i will ask him to read it twice, once for the head, a second time for the heart (from retrouvaille) and i will ask him to hang on to it for future reading if it might be helpful. after that, i really think the rest of his need to ask why and how could you will only go away as he learns to accept what has happened and decide to move past it.