Well, it hasn't been 2long after all, has it?

Then again, it has. This month marks 30 months since d-day. Over that time, several things have stuck in my mind. Some of them positive, some not so positive. Most of the not so positive stuff I can recognize as not particularly emotionally healthy, so I usually get 2 a point where I can let them go. They're all pretty much empty drama for drama's sake, so it isn't all that hard to let go of them once you realize that's what they are. So goes the growth process.

One of the things that's stuck in my mind is what JL said 2 me over 2 years ago, and that is that, because my W's A lasted so long, it would take her longer than most 2 get past it. I know that's true. Knowing it has helped me make it this far, for sure. Along with patience comes a certain level of acceptance, most of it healthy, but not all of it, admittedly. Much of the "unhealthy acceptance" stuff is not 2 difficult 2 identify as more drama, though, so although it does still come up, it doesn't rule my thinking for as long as it used 2.

Similarly, one cliche that's stuck in my mind, that many of my friends here and elsewhere have said 2 me is "it always gets darkest before the dawn". Well, I've been watching things get dark periodically, waiting for the following dawn, and it doesn't seem 2 really come along. A lot of false dawns, but no real dawn. Sorry, that's more drama. But it's so often used that it still comes 2 mind. Each time, I find myself feeling like I know what midnight on Sedna at aphelion must look like.(sorry, drama metaphor).

We had a great conversation last night. No LBs that we didn't recover from. Fog is still 2uite thick, although I'm the only one in this M that uses or accepts these kinds of terms 2 describe our sitch. I've been working very much alone on this, though my W has been doing her own "work" - it's just that our divergent pathways aren't going 2 restore this marriage, which my W still says she doesn't want anyway.

But we made a lot of progress 2ward understanding and accepting each other's perspective on the past 13 years, and on our marriage as a whole. Maybe this is one of the darkest points, and the next "false dawn" won't be false, but I've seen so many now that I'm not really all that optimistic. I still have some hope, but only a little. My W doesn't have much hope either.

My W is still seeing her IC at Kaiser, which seems 2 be working for her. I'm working with Penny, and have 2 decide on a "package" that will work for me, based on the pace of our so-called recovery. I don't want 2 spend a for2ne on coaching, and I believe that I could if this goes on a lot longer - and it could. My W has talked 2 Penny on one occasion, and likes her, but doesn't believe that Penny "gets her" at all, and doesn't want 2 have anything 2 do with her coaching approach or MB methods. As you all know, I've been pretty reluctant 2 go 2 plan B, prefering that we learn better communication skills. Well, we did a good job last night, and we both expressed our gladness that we were able 2 talk so well. Finally.

Problem is:

*i*

*don't*

*care*

I really don't. It's been so long since we really had a "marriage" that I'm not even sure what it's like 2 have one. I'm not even sure we ever had one in the 30 years we've known each other. And I'd like one. At least, I would like what I believe a committed relationship is supposed 2 be.

I suppose anything can happen as we keep talking frankly like this. Who knows, maybe even dawn. More than anything right now, I'm interested in being her friend - so she can feel safe talking 2 me and not "need" the conversation with RM that she's now missing (and resenting me because she agreed 2 temporary NC). I'm interested in getting this house si2ation resolved as quickly as possible. We're at least in agreement that we need 2 simplify our lives in that area. What was a beautiful old home that we could enjoy working on 2gether has simply become a building and a not-always-so-good financial investment.

Sorry for the downer post. Mostly, I feel pretty good. I feel like I'm seeing with a clarity I've not had before. Not that I am clear on what will happen or even what 2 do next. But we're communicating better.

-ol' 2long

2long - Join the crowd, I don't care anymore either. I have moved on alone, and am enjoying myself. Good luck.

Wow, believer! You really have 8 kids?

I'm proud of you!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ July 09, 2004, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2long -

Two are my bio. kids, 4 are my WH's bio. kids, and he has 2 step daughters that we have helped raise. It wasn't easy, but they are grown now. Whew!

2L,

I am sorry to read this in some ways and in others I see progress. Not necessarily in getting the marriage back, although one never knows do they? I am just wish I had been wrong all that time ago. I really would have liked to have been wrong. It saddens me.

I was down in your neck of the woods on 30 June for the Insertion event there. Just a quick trip down and back after all systems go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do hope that as things continue that you reach a state of peace with whatever is going on. You have done a remarkable job and I hope that someday your W appreciates your efforts no matter what she decides. It would be good if she at least honored you with respect for what you have and are trying.

Take Care,

JL

JL:

Wish you'd given me a call. I coulda showed you around MY planet! ...but you probably had 2 hurry.

Gotten 2 calls and 2 emails from my W at work 2day. About house/lawyer stuff mainly. But she could wait until we're at home. It's nice in a way. If I'm as important 2 her as she seems 2 let on sometimes, I'd sure like her 2 let me know. Best way would be 2 go NC on RM for the next 2 billion millenia. Just as a gesture of good faith, mind you. We'd still have 2 work at this.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' 2long

believer:

my 2 kids are pretty grown, 2. My D is 25, and engaged 2 a Welshman. My son is 17. He's very bright, but has problems with depression.

My D has always been a great kid - gave the ol' man NO worries as a teenager...

...when she was 16, and we were looking in2 buying a car for her 2 drive 2 work, she insisted she didn't want anything older than her( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). We were looking at a friend's used Volvo, that was 42nately only 10 at the time. She said she'd like a Volvo, but would prefer a later model... ...I then said, "for the price of a late model Volvo, I could probably buy 15 more of these!" as I pointed 2 my trusty ol' 1967 Microbus with 400,000 miles on it. She didn't miss a beat, she replied "yeah, but why would you want 2?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Good to hear from you. That's just the thing about the dawn, though . . . you really don't know if it will ever happen, until it DOES.

And it very possibly might. Good things happen to good people, and you are good people.

Why would you want to buy 15 1967 Mircrobuses? I can see your daughter has got it going on upstairs, my friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Congratulations on that! Chat at you later.

SS

2Long,

Probably shouldn't even be here tonight, let alone posting, since my H just left me again - 3rd time? 4th time? I'm losing count and losing "it."

Found proof of contact with OW, so I'm in the race with you for long-term A - I'm pretty sure we're at the 30-month or so mark as well.

What I find encouraging for you, however, is that you really are interested in being your W's friend and making her feel safe and comfortable. While you say you don't care, I think that's only a part of you talking, the part that needs protection from further hurt. Hey, I'm with ya, bud!

And as to your W saying that she doesn't think Penny understands her, or "gets" her...here's my opinion on that...

Our spouses, engaged in A's, will run for the hills to avoid interacting with those who can really "see" them. Who really know what they are going thru and don't buy into their hogwash. In my case, I hear over and over again how the IC isn't doing any good, how Penny isn't doing any good. I particularly hear this each time H decides that flight is the answer to his dilemma.

So take it with a grain of salt, my friend. They don't want to talk to those who can help them. No different than the drug addict avoiding rehab.

Hugs!

Spide:

Yeah, I don't want 2 get my hopes up that dawn may be approaching because it's looked like it so many times in the past 2.5 years, and it's NEVER stuck.

It might be, though. Time will tell.

My W went 2 sleep early 2night because she's tired. Heck, *I'm* tired 2! We were up past 11 talking, and I woke up at 2 with a nightmare, then she had 2 get up at 5:30 2 go 2 work.

I dreamed I was building a bridge across a river from a kit. It was a lightweight job, built like a small plane - with light metal frame and monocoque fabric covering. I could hold the whole 100-yard span at one end, but whenever I tried 2 line it up with the supports on the other side, the wind would blow it sideways in2 the water. I kept trying 2 do it myself, until these 2 guys in blue suits came along and offered 2 help. Being a "guy" that doesn't tend 2 even ask directions when I need 2, I almost refused, but decided on a whim 2 accept it. We finished the bridge with enough time left over 2 build an airplane! ...I would probably have remained asleep, but my W was twitching and lurching with a dream of her own, and woke me up. I patted her on the shoulder and she calmed down.

"Life is a weird place" -WW

-ol' 2long

IsGirl:

Damn! I hate hearing stories like yours where the A keeps flaring up! I wish you the best.

I think you're right on about my W's negativity 2 my coaching. She seems 2 want 2 know so much about what I'm doing, then attacks it's usefulness every damned time.

Like the NC for life thing. I was poking around the net, reading stuff off Peggy Vaughn's and the late Shirley Glass' websites. So much wisdom out there, and it all pretty much says the same exact thing, precisely because the scripts are so... ...SCRIPTED!

I will try 2 keep hoping, but I really am just caring because it's my na2re. I don't give a rat's pa2ty about how she feels about losing her "friend" or how he feels about losing her friendship - neither one of them demonstrated a concern for my feelings (or xMrs Meat's feelings) for 13 years. They've 2th got a lot of waking up 2 do. It's that I'm not optimistic about seeing anytime soon. But who knows?

best,
-ol' 2long

Wow. I find that dream incredibly interesting. Do you? Do you normally remember your dreams?

When H was still smitten with the HW, and I was plotting my courses of action here on these boards, I rarely dreamed. But when I did, I really paid attention to them.

For instance, after I read the "Love Must be Tough" book, I REALLY wanted to send H both the letters in that book. I was dead-set on it. And everyone was trying to say, "SS, maybe not . . . maybe now is not the time." But I was determined. I did sleep on it, though, as a consideration for the people cautioning me. And that night, I had the worst nightmares. When I awoke, I felt very clearly that I was not supposed to send those letters. I was supposed to keep doing what I was doing.

I don't know what it is about your dream . . . the bridge (which is so incredibly symbolic), the help from the men in suits, it lining up perfectly and working, extra time . . . all of it sounds wonderful to me. What a great dream.

Keep on keeping on. Look what happened to me??? My H DID wake up. Holy cow. I didn't think it was possible, and I was losing interest. And after only 4 months. I do think losing interest is a defensive mechanism. The best success stories are the ones fought hardest for.

But either way, you are prepared and capable of going on. Your wife would be losing such a great man! I think you ROCK!

Take care . . . SS

'course I rock. I'm a geologist! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> we do that!

Yeah, I tend 2 have vivid dreams that I remember. Some I remember for decades, literally. I also never would have believed in recurring dreams, until I started having them about 15 years or so ago. It's always me backing up my van, and either not being able 2 see something (or someone) behind me or not being able 2 stop. Usually, the van speeds up faster and faster, and I find myself frantically steering backwards 2 avoid hitting parked cars. ...it never bothers me in real life, though.

Also, check out my thread "The Elephants from Straw Jaw Park" from about a year ago. That was a doozy! and funny, 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IsGirl:

Damn! I hate hearing stories like yours where the A keeps flaring up! I wish you the best. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...I hate it too. And thanks for the good thoughts. 2long, you are the most committed, loving spouse! No matter what happens, you must take that away with you.

When my H left today, after totally packing up his "life," I said to him:

"You will never in your entire life find a better friend. You will never, no matter what happens, find a more loyal, more devoted, more committed wife than I have been to you."

Know what? He started crying...he said he loved me...then he left.

2long, you are exactly where I have told my H I am. You have given so much to your M and your W. She will never find anything that can come close to you, even if she were to leave you today and marry RM tomorrow...she would never find anything like you.

IsGirl:

"Know what? He started crying...he said he loved me...then he left."

The FOOL! oops, I'm probably not supposed 2 call him names, am I?

The thing is, there are so many stories like yours. Why do people behave so idiotically? ...my W included, at times.

The answer is not 2 bother asking the 2uestion, of course. That's not the "issue" and it certainly isn't the solution 2 any problem.

What I've learned most over the past 30 months I think I've said before (and I said, kindly and lovingly 2 my W last night), is that I KNOW now that what I did "wrong" all those years ago had nothing 2 do with my W choosing 2 trash her friendship with RM by having an A with him - precisely because nothing I've done since d-day has made a difference.

We make the "difference", the changes in our behavior, entirely within. ANY and ALL fingerpointing is just rationalization for bad choices.

If she wanted a R with RM 13 years ago, she SHOULD have DV'd me then. If she wants 2 resume contact now, she SHOULD DV me before she starts up again. I deserve no less consideration. (so do you)

-ol' 2long

"I think you're right on about my W's negativity 2 my coaching. She seems 2 want 2 know so much about what I'm doing, then attacks it's usefulness every damned time. "

WW sez: "2Long..... what has penny said to you recently?" (wants to know if there is negative talk about her)

2 answers: "Well, darlin' Penny sez I am quite a catch."

WW sez: "2long, what has Penny told ya to do?"

2 answers: "Sweetums, Penny thinks I am quite an interesting man."

WW sez: "2Long, I don't know if interesting is what I want."

2 answers: "Knowing what you don't want is useful, isn't it?"

WW sez, "Did Penny tell you to be interesting? What does Penny say about me?"

2 answers: "Penny sez you are married to an interesting man."

~~~~~~~~

Friend....... why do you think she asks about Penny at all??????

Pep

Pep:

That's pretty cute <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But she doesn't ask those things. She asks where the $180/mo is going and how long I plan 2 work with her at those rates. Remember, Kaiser is only $10/visit, and they're usually a month apart.

Progress? What progress? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

"$180 a month is for my personal beautification ..... I think I am getting my money's worth."

....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep:

Can I say "Penny's training is going 2 make me a bullstud!"?

Probably not. ...don't need that anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This morning, I snuggled with her while my coffee was brewing. She said "I thought you were mad at me". And I replied "Mad at you? I can't be, I'm 2 in love with you 2 be mad at you."

Truth is I can be mad at her even when I do feel in love with her, but that remark struck me as so off the wall that I didn't think of that response. I was more concerned with what she was IMAGINING was going on in my head, with all that's BEEN going on with us.

I need 2 tell her again that I appreciated her honesty. We agree on the definition of honesty, at least. Not secrecy and privacy yet.

-ol' 2long

ISGirl:

I posted this in the lyrics thread, and I think I've used it before, but it belongs here, 2:

Leonard Cohen, "Humbled in Love"

"Do you remember all of those pledges
That we pledged in the passionate night?
Ah they're soiled now, they're torn at the edges
Like moths on a still yellow light.
No penance serves to renew them.
No massive transfusions of trust.
Why not even revenge can undo them,
So twisted these vows and so crushed.

And you say you've been humbled in love.
Cut down in your love,
Forced to kneel in the mud next to me.
Ah but why so bitterly turn from the one
Who kneels there as deeply as thee?

Children have taken these pledges,
They have ferried them out of the past.
Oh beyond all the graves and the hedges
Where love must go hiding at last.
And here where there is no description,
Oh here in the moment at hand.
No sinner need rise up forgiven,
No victim need limp to the stand.

And you say you've been humbled in love...

And look dear heart, look at the virgin!
Look how she welcomes him into her gown!
Yes, and mark how the stranger's cold armour
Dissolves like a star falling down.
Why trade this vision for desire,
When you may have them both?
You will never see a man this naked.
I will never hold a woman this close.

And you say you've been humbled in love..."

-ol' 2long