Jets-

I bet OM was surprised when he heard from you! Now you have to think about things very carefully. I know it was a painful shock, but do you still love her?

If this was a one-time thing, do you think you can forgive her?

thanks believer for listening.
too be honest the Om was shocked that it was me her husband. He emailed me stating that she had me divorced already and living in Ohio. Stated that she has some explaining to do. I threaten him but it was out of anger. Wife aware that i did these things. Had met with her parents tonight. they where floored. they cannot believe this was their daughter.
Too be honest i don't know how i feel about her anymore. This women in my house now is not the same women i married 13 years ago. Of course she states that i am not the same man neither.
I have bent over backwards for her in my life. Given up opportunities that are long gone let her take on her career and my kids and i sat home waiting for her to come home only to come in 2hours after she stated. Now not even sure she was working, but in a hotel with her ahole lover.
She keeps defending him saying don't blame him he is not at fault blame me. I state he is at fault d/t he took what love you had left for me away.
Keeps saying that i never showed her the love that she wanted. "have to show love outside the bedroom in order to have it in the bedroom." I even admit that i am guilty of this, but i didn't go out to seek a affair with someone else. Keep asking her why didn't you show me the signs on a brighter billboard. She states she did i just didn't see it. Tell her what i got was a lot of mix signals.
Don't know what will happen with out. I don't know if i love her or not. Don't trust her anymore. She admitts to me that her love died out for me over a year ago. I keep telling her your saying that because you are in a fog over this other guy. of course she adamently denies it. keep saying your not giving counseling a chance. she states that she don't see it happening. we have agreed i guess, to cont. counseling but now for her it is just to settle for a amicable seperation. She wants joint custody of the kids. In a way as nuts as everyone thinks i am. I am agreeable somewhat to that. Kids are close to mom and one good virtue that i at least think she still has is she a good mother. although how good i don't know she breaking up a family.
don't know what to do? i guess i better start seeking out people for living single at age of 39 for the rest of my life. she states that even if her current relationship is busted because of what i emailed. she still has no desire to go back to me.
any other advice or suggestions.

Stay in Plan A. She has told you an important clue - "love outside the bedroom". A good counselor can still help you turn this around.

Thanks beleiver for response.
We are going agaoin to the counselor today she moved appt. up to today. She was pretty upset crying. Never really gave me a reason what her reason is for going. Amicable seperation? or reestablishing something?
I don't know how much Love i have left for her.
I did a few days ago but after all this. i don't know. I feel i could try to meet her EN but would ever be good enough. After what i have learned of her affair. I look at her and i don't even want to be around her. As i said before she is not my wife that i married 14 years ago. she is a total different person that i don't know. In laws feel the same. they feel she is having a mental breakdown. she feels i am pitting her parents against her.
She is exhibiting some signs mentioned in plan A.
will stick with plan A but not sure if it will work.
The Lover is out of the picture per his statement on a email. He to was lied too. He was under impression that she was already divorce not even seperated and i was awaiting to go to OH. He stated don't worry i am out of the picture and that she has lot to explain.
If any thing is reestablish, i don't know if i can trust her. How do i know it won't happen again? i don't want to go through this again.
jets

well, it looks like seperation is what we are going to have to go through. I have tried and tried to convince her that i still love her. I have even admitted to her that i have forgiven her for this affair and am still will to give this another chance. Shouldn't that show how much i still love her. All she states is that i am not love with u anymore. our love fisseled out in our marriage.
I giving up on trying to convince her. all she see's is the emotional attention i haven't given her in the last year.
I feel that she will not give our marraige a chance because she so in love with OM. OM stated that she lied to her and he is out of picture. although i feel he might be just lurking around waiting to see what happens to us.
we have settle for amicable seperation between us. have to see attorneys yet. This is going to kill us financially let alone emotionally for all parties.
My biggest fear is that if OM is waiting to see what happens to us as soon as she is on her own he will be on her like gum on shoe and this will wipe out any love if any that she has left for me. ww plans on talking with om when he back from sea duty to find out if he is still in love with her after truth about us was highlighted to him. Om is in navy living on ship joint custody of his kids 4 of them and divorce is set for him in Aug. I am hoping he will look back at his own mess and see that he wasn't gettign the full truth from WW and tell her to get lost, but gut feeling it won't happen. There will go any opportunity for us to regain possibly what we have left.
I am angry, depressed and can't do anything about this but sit back and wait.
we will have a amicable seperatin with joint of kids and still being friendly with each other.
probably not good idea. maybe i should be more distance to her. let her have her space. hopefully see she didn't have it so bad with me.
Any thoughts

Good news,
ww starting to think with brain now and not heart.
Recap of past week from Hell:
Starting counseling after discovery of affair.
Felt we would reconcile after first session.
More discovering of full truth of affair.
Talked of seperation and this was discussed with counselor.
Was prepared to see attorney end of this week.
Come home this Friday to find out that mortgage will go up a little more for a few mo. d/t late charges. (Have been communicating good, since talk of seperation,no yelling, arguing,disrespect. etc.}
Of course this would have affected my budget d/t i was cont. to live in house she was to move out.
I had asked her straight out when i got home and discovered this. ARe you sure this is what you want?
WW started to break down cry, stated that the night before while at a inservice for her job she felt her grandmother,whom she was very close with,spirit was telling her that she could not do this especially for the sake of our boys. WW stated that she wanted to tell me this the night before but kept wrestling with the feelings she has for the lover. WW states that she still has love for me and knows that it will take work to bring us back to where we once where before all this,but know for the sake of her boys and family she must let lover go and get through these feelings for him.
Sat. Lover arrives back in town from sea duty. WW speaks with lover on phone explains she needs to meet with him. Lover somewhat aware of sit. d/t email that i initially sent. States that he will forgive her and still in lover with WW. Ww to meet with for dinner and to make cut off on the affair. ww confused as to how anyone can still love her after mess she has put everyone through. I stated that i still loved her. she cried and hugged me and ask me to be patiance.
Sat night. WW wife returns home from dinner and states that she broke it off. states lot of crying on both parts going on. States that she would like to remain his friend,but needs a cooling off period. Lover in navy so very transient schedule, and ww admits that d/t this distances will probably fissel this friendly relationship out. Not sure on this .
How can i ever meet up to what this dude has had to make my wife feel so in love with him??
I am trying so hard to change for her, but have told her that i may slip up from time to time. Stated that i do not want to go through this Hell again in my life. Asked what attracted her to him so much. Ww states that it wasn't his looks it was just the simple and small things that he did for her. She states that this made her feel like she was in high school again.
Even now, I am getting the hugs that i would have gotten mo.'s ago. but wife still won't let me simply kiss her on the lips, will allow me to kiss her on the cheek or forehead.
Will i ever be able to obtain the passionate affection that we once shared??? How can i convince her that i am trying to change for the better. Wife admits that she see's the effort on my part.
Trust will always be a issue for me with her. She is aware of this.
What will not make her want to go down this pass agian in 6mo. or 4years from now? Again i will not go through this hell in my life.
Would appreciate any advice or answers.
Thanks for listening.
jets

Have no real advice for you, but wanted to let you know you are not alone.

You have a lot going for you, your wife is still there with you, you share children and you have marriage builders. From what I see, everything is on your side.

One thing I would say is do not push her, do not over do anything, just take it nice and slow. Try not to think to much. Let everything happen in it's own natural time.

All the best to you,

Weaver

jets-

All this is very promising. And remember you don't want the marriage you had, you want to work for a marriage that is better than before. Happens all the time here.

Would she consider posting? There is a whole gang of WW's here, trying to recover, and making some progress. See the moving on thread, broken vessel's posts, runaway pot, Chackler.

Right now try to spend 15 hours with your wife doing fun things. Can you do that?

Thanks Weaver and Believer for all your support and advice.
I had a bright idea after i sent my morning post.
WW wife was sleeping in bed and i thought it would be nice to bring her a simple breakfast in bed, in which i did. She said it was nice but again depressed. i had asked her what was wrong she stated that she scared for the future. Stated that she didn't want to feel like she was in a rut. Felt like this may go back to the way it was yrs. ago. I admitted to her that yes i was a total jerk and wasn't meeting any of your emotional needs and understand that she built this wall up against me in her heart. She stated that she cannot fathom ever having sexual relations with me. Advised that i wasn't expecting it, not for a long time. Told her that i need to work on trying to meet her En's that i haven't been in last year or so. Had asked her to at least be open and give this a chance. She states that she is trying. Often she questions why it took this event to make me realize that our marriage was in trouble when she knew year or more ago. I cannot honestly answer her. I just state i don't know. I took adv. of our marriage and u and assumed that things where ok and would work itself out. I told her before this event i knew we lost the passion in our sex life and that we where just going through the motions. She would say just agreeing to it not to here me whine or not talk to her for few days afterword if i didn't get any. (Yes i was a real immature ignorant jerk in this marriage, and have admitted this to her several times) She says she knows but no one else does. All anyone else see's is the affair and not what led up to it.
She states that she can't see seperation working out for d/t without the boys every other week and not financially being able to afford to live on it, but again i am not in this picture some reason??? I don't hear her say that I can't see us seperated because i would miss you. This usually comes from me to her.
Don't know how to get her to realize that i am trying to change for the better.
It hurts when she tells me that she still cringes in bed when i simply try to put my arm around her.
She states that she still feels like it going to lead to sex. Will she ever get over these feelings??
She is ok when i hug her or hold her outside the bed but in bed forget it for now.
Believer will talk to her about this web site and discussion forum that u mentioned but right now she has no desire to be on the internet d/t i think it was the demise of the affair.
Weaver agree i need to take it slow but i am having a hard time judging fast and slow with her. Sometimes she states that i am overdoing it and she is not used to it. Then i feel bad.
Will try to focus on doing fun things. Going to Walmart this afternoon, She likes going there. I know not much but it is something and she likes to go.
She is out now paying few bills and stated that she is going to the craft store for awhile to be on her own and just doing something she wants and to clear her head.
Any other suggestions or ideas appreciated.
even another forum that i could look at to find out what i can do to move this marriage in the right direction and get off these emotional roller coasters.
Thanks,
Jets <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Read through the WW's posts. They all go through the same thing - cringing. So don't take it personally. I know, it's hard not to.

Walmart sounds fine. I like that place too. It is recommended to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things. And don't worry that she is just staying for the kids. That is normal too.

Another good site is saveyourmarriagecentral. Lots of experts there, and you will get more help.

Have you read Ark's post about Plan A here. She gives lots of great advice. Hang in there, you can do this.

Hey all,
quick question after recap. Wife call me twice today and left vm on ofc. phone while i was in meeting stating just calling to say HI no problems. Returned call to wife cell after meeting. again stated just calling to say hi and remind me to pay water bill. told her i appreciated the call.
pay water bill dicided to call wife on ofc. phone. her ofc. is big and took 10mins for her to come to phone. Wife said nicely to start calling her on her cell, d/t ofc. big and they cannot always find her and she didn't want me to be on hold forever. states that sometimes she will go to home ofc. depot to pick up ofc. supplies and her boss will not always know. States to call her cell she has it on vibrate. I said ok.
going back to Sat. night breakup dinner with her and om. she stated that she cut the affair off. alot of emotions from both parties and he stated still loved her she stated could not do this to her family and boys. would remain friends but needs a cooling off period. I protested when she came home and said to cut it off for good as to not bring old feelings back to her. she didn't say much.
My thinking is even though she states she cut off email from him accounts gone as far as i can tell. I don't know what she does on her cell phone or at work. she stated at times during affair they would meet for lunch and after work dinners. she states that it is over but i am always suspiscious now.
should i confront her after good phone calls this am and spoil the mood.
should i wait to counseling tomorrow in which counselor will probably ask for recap.
it bugs me about the dinner, feel she might just be telling me what i want to hear. for all i know they could be planning around me.
any advise or suggestions?
jets

Stay in Plan A for awhile, and don't confront her. You are doing very well.

Hey all,
Just a few questions and venting.
confused to my wife actions and reactions. I don't know if this is part of the withdrawel period or not. WW will be happy at times and then majorly off in the distance. Ask her what is wrong and she says she is ok. I say i love you to her most of the time and once in a while will get the same reply back, but usually it is as if i am trying to force her to say it back.
She is really analyzing and picking things i say to her apart and still wondering why i wasn't this affectionate to her years ago. I have admitted and take blame for being a crumb to her EN over last few years and keep trying to say that i am trying my best not to be that person that i was. She always questions though why did it took a event like this for me to realize how bad it has been between us. I honestly can't answer, because i don't know. I tell her i guess i just assumed you felt the same way i felt about you.......guess i was way off. I say to her i have always loved her and never stopped since we where first dating. Most of the time the reply i get is "you sure had a funny way of showing it!"
I know i have to be patience but i can't stand to see her to be down and out at one moment and slightly upbeat another. She still states that main reason for her right now for reconciliation is for the kids. I ask her about me and she says i am there too, but she is scared of the future. she doesn't want to go back to the way it used to be. I keep trying to convince her that i am not going back to that way. she admits she has seen the effort put forth by me to change, but states that it appears at times as overkill on my part to her because she is not used to this.
I try and tell her that i am doing this straight from the heart, because i want to.
The thing that hurts me the most right now. Is the fact that she feels she can't even be comfortable in bed with me just sleeping. She will hugg her side of the bed most of the night. I have asked her if she would like me to sleep elsewhere and she states no. I have asked her if i make her uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed with her and she states sometimes, but doesn't want me to sleep elsewhere.????
Is this part of withdrawel period? or is this recovery period? if withdrawel how long for avg. person before they start feeling like they are their old selves?

They all go through the same thing. It could be withdrawal or it could be that she is still having contact.

Are you spending 15 hours a week with her just doing fun things?

trying to spend time with just her. Doing fun things. d/t jobs counseling, it is hard to spend 15 hours. she will occasionally go off on her own to craft store or walmart states that she needs to clear her head.
She states that contact with OM has been cut off,completely. No emails noted. although not sure of her cell phone but it hasn't been chirping like it used to around us.
I unfortunately shadowed her the other night she stated that she had to go to Home Depo, to look for a tool for her father that we broke. She did go and verified she left.
I hate being this distrusting with her, but i don't want to get burnt again. I keep telling myself if she is not being honest she the one that has to live with it and going through all this with counseling and all, why would we bother. last night after counseling we sat in the car and talked then went to get something to eat. After this she stated that she want to go to craft store and just clear her head. Stated that if store was close was going to go back to walmart to look for similar items. i was to pick up our kids at grandma's. On my way i followed her to craft store so i saw she pulled in. A few min.s later she celled me and stated that they where closing and she was going to head to Walmart. stated that she would probably be home before me. I called the craft store to verify hours and they where about to close when she got there.
I pick up the kids and stayed there for about 45min. and on the way home celled her and told her i was on the way home. she stated that she was too and had things she wanted but in between pay checks right now so no$$.
I unfortunately looked through her purse and saw she had 60.00 in there, but she had mentioned today that she had to pay her cell phone bill which was 60.00.
i feel so low having to do this. maybe i need to just get over this, maybe she is being honest with me. I think it bothers her because she can tell i have some distrust with what she says.

Can anyone tell me how to voice to ww that when she doesn't say i love u back it is a major love buster for me?
Perhaps i am not being patience enough, she officially broke up with the OM this past Sat.
She states i love you back only when i have to promp her, and then i am thinking she really doesn't want to say it.
If this is a withdrawel period for her. Man do i hate it.
we are going to counseling and trying to spend some more time with her per week.

Mr. J,
Just read your entire thread and have some thoughts. Sorry to be so wordy.

First, I think you need to back off!!! You need to stop all the love talk. These remarks are obviously not being received by WW with the desired intention. Instead they seem to be serving as a huge turn-off, therefore, a huge LB. Besides, saying it doesn’t mean anything. Doing it, (loving her, understanding her, being patient with her), means more then anything you will ever say. Besides she’s probably interpreting these expressions of love as demands for love in return. So if it were me. I would save my self the pain of rejection as well as the anger created by the frustration and just make up my mind to give it time.

Next, I would accept her pragmatic approach just as she states it to you. She wants to stay together for the boys so agree with her! Validate her! Say, “WW, I understand what you’re saying and while it hurts, I’m willing to give this as much time as you need.” Then, in the spirit of that self same pragmatic understanding that you’re agreeing too, ask her to validate your feelings by negotiating the boundaries that need to be established for true reconciliation. And Jet, getting these “rules” and having her agree to them, right away, is very important! VERY!

Some suggestions:

A NO CONTACT letter needs to be sent right away. Sorry to sound so critical but your WW should never have gone out with OM Saturday night to say good buy. It should have been cold turkey. My goodness, she’s already decided that they will be friends! No way! Read Harley’s take on this issue. He won’t even council a WS until NO Contact is established. Until she never sees or speaks with him again, she is still having an affair. Even worse, there’s no way that she can work on the marriage while she’s still relating to the OM.

And how about all of her e-mail and v/m codes? She wants to have some privacy?! She thinks she’s deserves this courtesy? And why would that be? Because she’s proved to be so trust worthy? Jet, plenty of time to loosen up latter on, after the “fog” has had a chance to clear. Right now, you can’t afford to play the role of the “good guy.”

And keep that key logger software going! Spy, spy, spy! I would bet anything that this affair isn’t going to die a quiet death. It will probably end with her kicking and screaming but with NO contact and you’re continued plan A, it can and will end.

And how about traveling alone on business? Man she was going out of town on business and meeting her lover! And now you’re suppose to close your eyes and accept that she’s going to do the right thing?

How about contacting the OM’s commanding officer? I do believe that service personnel are held to a different and higher standard. I can’t believe that the Navy would be pleased to hear that the OM is breaking up marriages while on leave!

Mr. J, I understand that you’re feeling relief over the fact that she’s made a decision to stay in the home but please understand that now, is when the battle has just begun!
Good luck.
Coach

Thanks,
for the reponse coach. I agree maybe i am overdoing it with the love stuff and need to back off for right now.
I want to get her to write this letter of no contact, i am sure she will bulk at this stating that she officially ended it Sat. night,but for me this is the least she could do. At least it prevent me from feeling like i have to shadow her or know where her whereabouts are. Will try to suggest this to her tonight i am sure i will get depress ww again.
She has for now quit most of her out of town jobs, so this isn't a issue at this point.
so far checking my resources and shadowing her she has remained true to her word and i have found no contact to om, thus far.
Again cannot be everywhere she is at. Don't really want to be. I don't know who she calls if she calling anyone to and from work.
I am hoping no contact letter will make it a little better on that end.
will keep u updated
Thanks, for the response
Jets

Jets I'm so sorry all this is going on. Coach's advice is dead on, please pay close attention to what he has said. (Coach, I remember you when I started lurking two years ago, thanks for chiming in here!)

Jets, I'm concerned about your understanding of Plan A so I'm giving you a portion of a thread from an old timer named Distressed that explains Plan A really well. You should also be familiar with the Plan A link that Believer has in her sig line.

*************************************************Quoted by Distressed:

I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.

Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward.

While the positive aspects of Plan A are useful, they come with a very high negative cost if it goes on too long. The backlash to the betrayed's self-esteem grows over time as disrespectful behavior from the wayward is not only tolerated, but often rewarded. The betrayed forgets what it's like to respect him/herself, and just accepts whatever crumbs the wayward offers. Worse still, the betrayed remains so engrossed in the effort to meet the emotional needs of the wayward, that they're not focusing on developing a separate life. This doesn't always happen, but it happens far more often than it should.

I believe the Harley's are frequently misunderstood about Plan A. Their intent is for a SHORT Plan A, just to demonstrate the changes. Normally, they recommend going to Plan B at separation or after just a few months of Plan A. Plan B is almost always necessary according to the Harley's. Their advice is clear, but many people do not apply it as advised. Plan A goes way too far.

Unfortunately, it's best to accept that once someone decides to leave, whether they choose to come back is completely out of the control of the betrayed. The primary influences on the wayward's behavior are some combination of the state of the affair and the character of the wayward, not the actions of the betrayed. That's why Harley says go to Plan B and stay there. It's basically designed to allow a maximum waiting period for the affair to end.

*************************************************

Also as Coach has said, No Contact is essential. Are you familiar with the No Contact letter? This is what Dr. Harley has to say:

*************************************************
My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent.
*************************************************
Also here is a link to sample no contact letters

Hope this gives you some concrete help. You REALLY need to take the time to do some homework on the concepts and not JUST rely on the forum. We all want the best for your marriage but the work is actually up to you, so learn as much as you can, to be the best H that you can be. I was as fogged out and confused as your wife once upon a time, but no more! Have hope, give it time, DO YOUR HOMEWORK! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Best, KB

Thanks KB,
WW states that she has ended it with OP really broke down when i had suggested that she write the letter. She of course refused stated that it took all her emotions to end this last weekend. She doesn't have a address, dude lives on a ship. I have to believe her my wife usually doesn't do well with faking tears when she has them they are genuine. Can't force her to write a letter and can only go with what she is telling me. End result is she has to live with the guilty concious if she is not being honest.
Majorly depressed. I understand through reading Harleys infidelity part 2 article that she needs to go through a withdrawl period and this may take up to 3 weeks to mo's. She keeps telling me that she is scared that she will never get feelings of love back for me again, to be able to hold my hand or let me put my arm around her. She afraid that her heart is so empty for any love for me that she scared that she may never get it back. I keep telling her that she has to give it time. That it hasn't even been a week since she broke off with OP. She states that she still feels numb to me. I Don't know maybe she may have a point. What if i try my best after all this to try and meet her EN and it will never be enough. Maybe i will be stuck in a sexless marriage for the rest of my life or at least until the kids move out 10 years.
She is bringing me down and i am try ing to stay positive and give her her space. I don't know what to tell her other than to give it time.
She states that i am doing too much too soon and is if it appears that i am throwing up on her to meet her needs. I have finally realize this was wrong to do in plan a after rereading it. So now i am back off and giving her her space and time and trying to patience with her. But it is truly discouraging for me to sit and listen to her say that she a harden heart for me and a pitt in her heart for me and what if she never reagains any affection for me again. Life will be just grand living with someone who doesn't love you. I
don't know any more. feelling pretty down and depressed right now.
Jets