BV,

Calm down. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I really would like to hear Mr. BV's thoughts on my posts before you and I get back to talking. Here is why. I know you are taking somethings I said incorrectly: You said I have identified why you two seem so incompatible. I believe you are very wrong. I think this is where you two have a big problem, it is has nothing to do with compatibility.

In my mind incompatibility comes from having very different goals in life and valuing certain things in a very different manner. It is very compatible for two people to want the same goal, but address it differently. It can be argued that often this difference in approach is a very good thing.

Do you see the difference?

So I look forward to hearing from you, but I need to hear from Mr. BV and his thoughts about my impressions.

Hope you get your computer sorted out. Those virus' and worms can be a real pain.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

First, you are still in withdrawal so while you understand the words I say, you won't fully understand the true meaning of what I or your H says, for awhile yet. This is NOT about OM, trust me on that.

I will say something to you that I may have to modify once Mr. BV posts, but I think you failed him early on in your marriage and you set up a situation that led to this gulf. Just based on what little he has said, I think you failed your H in a way you have not considered. You failed to give him a SAFE place to be. So he continued to hold in, and not share his feelings.

In your quest to get your needs met, nothing wrong with that, you managed to put your H in the role of your father and he feeling that is what you needed accepted the role. But, you put him there because what I preceive as some weaknesses in you, hence he did not feel right "burdening" you with his feelings, doubts, fears.

You don't think he has them, look at his answers. He fears hurting you, which suggests he fears losing you and doesn't feel you would stay with him unless he was superman. He sought support in the Bible, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, he did not do what the Bible commands and neither did you. Neither of you became ONE within your marriage. It is not that you have to think alike or even react to things the same way, but you need to share yourselves. Frankly, I am thinking you shared alot of your pain, your worries, and troubles, but not your joys in him. And he took on the father role to smooth out your life, and shared less as well.

These are just guesses based on very limited knowledge, but BV none of the issues discussed, guessed at or even hinted at are show stoppers. They just need to be recognized, put on the table for discussion and examination and then the two of you need to reach satisfactory plans to address them.

Remember one thing, in working with your OM, you shared your spiritual life and your real life with him. You two sought sympathy from each other and frankly he used you to fill his needs. But you have stated you would never leave your H for OM and clearly OM had no plans to leave his W. Heck he had done this stuff before.

So while you think you two were "soulmates" the fact of the matter was that you did not even share the most basic goal of life with one another. Neither of you had made any commitment to share your lives together. Now that is what I call incompatible. Your life goals did not even fit.

BV, you are 41 and many women and yes men have what is called the mid-life crisis. Sometimes it is the onset of physical/hormonal changes in men and women, and sometimes it is looking at life from a particular point and time and seeing more behind than ahead and wondering what you missed. If I had the cure for this I would be world famous and very wealthy. I don't. But, I can tell you that 18 years from now you will still NOT feel old. You will still be able to love your H physically and emotionally and you will see life far differently than you do now. You need patience YOUNG LADY, you are about to learn some life altering things and your marriage CAN be much better.

It is my hope that you and your H will talk, discuss, argue over many things discussed here and it will change how each of you want to achieve your goals. You will both end up much happier if you will simply have patience.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Don't want to take you away from BV.

I just wanted to say how much I am getting from what you are saying to her. From all of your discussions back and forth.

Not only do I wish you had a cure for mid-life crisis(can a 35yr go through it-yes probably), I also wish you had a cure for withdrawal.

It is so frustrating. It is so hard to balance going through withdrawal and trying to take steps toward your S so they can heal!

Thanks for all the wisdom,
Pam

Pam,

I saw your last post on another thread. Just give it time. Here is something for you and BV to consider. No matter what happens you will NEVER have your old marriages again. The dynamics have changed too much. The point of this site is to recognize this and then realize that you can have a much better marriage in its place.

It takes Time and Patience and finally it takes a good heart and I know you both have all three ingredients. So don't worry about that.

The other thing it takes is a spouse willing to work on things and change their perspectives as well. You both have that.

I know I am making this sound simple, but you know...it is simple. It really is simple. So now I am going to tell you both a joke.

There was this cowboy in a rodeo. He is sitting on the back of a bull getting ready to come out of the pen. He is wrapping and rewrapping the rope lead around his gloved hand, trying to get it as tight as he can.

His friend is steading the bull and telling. "Ok, this is simple. You have the points lead, just stay on that bull 8 seconds and you win the championship. Come on, it really is simple."

Two old cowboys are sitting on the railing near the pen, and one turns to the other and says:

"That boy over there is about to learn the difference between 'simple' and 'easy'."

Recovery and rebuilding your marriage is simple. Use Dr. Harley's two policies "radical honesty" and the POJA and follow his four rules for a good marriage. If you do the love will come, a better marriage will come, and you both will be much much happier. So will your spouses.

But doing the "simple" things often is NOT "easy".

So have patience and give this time. When you get frustrated just mutter to yourself T&P, T&P, ...

You both can do this, it really is simple. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL.

You made me cry, but H would tell you everything makes me cry right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I needed the encouragement as I am sure wonderful BV does too.

Pam

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

As not to take over your thread with JL, I will post to you on the Moving Forward thread. If I can find it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are not lost or anything like that.

I am just a little shy of saying all that is going on in me.

You take the correction and criticism in a much more mature fashion than I do.

I am right where you are. I am SLOWLY learning I have to set my eyes on God and the goal, or I will blindly go right where I was before.

Love ya very much BV,
Pam

PS. My hubby posts so much to you because he sees so much of the same pain and experiences in you as he does me. He really wants you to succeed as much as he does us. Scary, though. He wants it NOW, and I run like a scared fox. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pam

Oops. Double post.

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: runawaypot ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Dear JL,

I haven't been posting much...but am still here following along, and wanted to tell you that you are helping me, too. I'd say I'm through the worst of withdrawal, but on those days where feelings creep back up on me, it's good to be reminded of what I am working towards. I really liked the rodeo story....funny how I never really thought about the difference between 'simple' and 'easy'....how right you are, and that alone has helped me today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Also, BV asked you "Why are you so wise" and remarked how you seem to know so much about women. I was thinking the same thing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

One thing I have wondered about....my OM was the same way....seemed very knowledgeable about women, perceptive, sensitive, etc. He also seemed to know an AWFUL lot about people in affairs....the why's, the how's. He would even say things to me like "This can make a marriage stronger" and "I'm only trying to save your marriage". I always wondered how he could know so much, believe it, and STILL be standing in front of me and not his wife. Baffling to me.
That is probably the one thing that still BUGS me about the whole d#$m thing....it never made sense to me.
If you have any clues or insights into the mind of a man like this, I'd surely appreciate it!

Julie

onlywords,

I know what you mean. My xOM is "just a trainer" but very successful. Monetarily, awards, etc. So he is intelligent. He also knew way too much about women and seemed too smart to do what he was doing.

Just last night (shamefully) I fell apart in Hs arms about your very questions. All the whys. They can drive you crazy if you let them.

I would love insight into this kind of man's mind. H was wonderful, by the way. He is so much more of a man than any OM could be.

Pam

onlywords,

I have a theory or two. And a comment. The comment first, knowledge can be used for good or bad. Your OM, and BV's OM were skilled at dealing with people and especially women. They are more vulnerable to certain approaches than men are.

But, the other thing that is worth thinking about for you, BV, perhaps RAP, is that it is much easier to do and say things that are emotionally meaningful IF you are NOT emotionally attached as well. Your OM had nothing to lose, you either went with their program or you did not.

When you are married to someone, it is much harder to do these things because of the emotional investment, fear of losing something very important to them, and in the case of men (yes me too) we don't want to look foolish or weak in front of our W's. Remember we all (men that is) define ourselves by how we were raised and by the images of what a "real man is". There are many pluses to this, but there are some minus'.

Your H could not do what OM could do, because he had too much to lose and he feared you not respecting him or thinking him foolish or worse weak. OM could care less and if it gets him into your mind and then your pants well...

I suspect that BV's H is very good with people. I am betting that his Christian views and his way of speaking or presenting things is very effective. However, this is so because he is detached from them and so his own issues, frailities, fears, insecurities, whatever can be pushed to the back.

I would also bet that he tries to be as good and as big a help to BV as he does other members of the church. He could give her no less than he gives others right? But, to do that he maintains his detachment, it is after all the most effective way to counsel someone, right.

However, it means that he is not CONNECTED to her by the very human frailities that we all have. What he sees as a weakness or something he doesn't want to burden BV with, is in fact what she wants. She wants to feel the connection and the sense that he fails as well as she. Further, if she is/has been pretty needy with regard to his support of her, she is sending him a signal that she may not have intended: I need you to be strong. You cannot fail me and my needs are more important than yours.

If this is true, he remains her counselor, her friend, her... because he fears he will let her down if he is just himself with all of his fears and issues. And what he fears MOST is losing her, so he takes all of the blame for the marriage, and frankly BV has given it to him, because it is HE that has not connected with her. Yet it is she that has not given him a place to be safe. I am betting only God knows Mr. BV's fears, desires, insecurities, and surely that is a good thing, but his W needs to know and handle them as well.

So you see onlywords, this stuff can be really complicated, but being "wise" is much easier if one is NOT emotionally involved and then it is a matter of using it for a goal. In the case of your OM and BV's OM this knowledge was used to comfort you, get inside of you, and weaken your resolve to honor your marriage. I would not call them evil men, I would say they were skilled by weak men.

Just some thoughts. Must get some work done. Hope the thoughts are of use.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 27, 2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

OK BV,

No boards from me. I think you did great.

Here are a couple of things I have to say. This “list” idea is from some tapes I heard on relationships. They are really good. But they are not about surviving or handling an affair. The purpose of this list is to rekindle the warm feelings, the biological, chemical, “in love” (which isn’t love) feelings between two people that they had at the start of the relationship.

NCWalker’s big list: Yes. My list was big. If I had a perfect M I would desire these things. I now, as JL said, have a different marriage. The “old” marriage can never come back. Frankly, I don’t want it back. Neither does RAP. We both want the BEST M we can have. And that is what God wants too. It is WRONG to EXPECT (which is fast becoming a bad word to me) this list at this point. Too many “bad vibes.” What I was trying to do with my big list is get YOUR juices going. Sometimes it is easier to write a bunch of stuff down and cross of what you CAN’T do than come up with what you CAN do from a blank sheet of paper. That is what I was trying to do with you.

It appears that much of the “physical” stuff is out. OK for now given your circumstances, but you MUST keep that as a goal. So I give you two dozen things that would make me feel loved and you can do half of them for your husband. BV, IMHO that is pretty good considering what you have just gone through. What next? You know the answer.

Do the ones you can. If you think of one on your own, add it. BE love to Mr. BV, don’t just “say” love. The things you identified would BE love to me. My “guess” is that you WILL begin to kindle some fire in Mr. BV. I get the sense from what is going on between you and JL that you didn’t make your H feel like a man. Maybe he didn’t mind. Maybe he shut down. You are a gardener and know the things you tend well thrive. Tend your husband’s masculinity and it will thrive.

OK. Now I am angry. BIG 4x4 for Mr. BV! PLEASE let him read this BV.

Mr. BV,

What are you, nuts? 6 & 7? Do you know what you are doing? You are wanting what your own mom and dad had. A boring friggin marriage. Why? I think it is because that is all you have known. You have a passionate wife who has just been through emotional hell and she is willing to BE LOVE to you. Sounds like as much as she is able. And you only WANT what your parents had.

Now I’m steamed. There is nothing sadder than someone who is missing something great for want of asking. Am I reaching you with that? You tell me about salvation. If someone doesn’t have it, why? WANT OF ASKING. Do you realize that if you do not live your life fuller and better than your parents, you are dishonoring them? Do you realize that honor mom and dad is higher on the list of commandments than adultery? Do you realize that it is the FIRST commandment that is not about honoring God? Why did your mom and dad try so hard to give you a better life for you to throw it away by “settling” for theirs?

Now my list might not exactly match yours, but ONLY 6 & 7? Your wife’s affair better be a wake up call to you buddy. It wasn’t your fault and it was her choice, but it sounds like BV is a little fireball, that you could have had all along FOR WANT OF ASKING!!

Where is SHE on YOUR priority list? She keeps writing how supportive you are, and I frankly need to listen to some of that because I tend to bust my wife’s chops, but brother she has fallen in a jungle pit and it sounds like you are just patiently waiting for her to climb out so you can continue your BORING journey. This isn’t the time for Professor Porter, this is the time for Tarzan! If 6&7 are the only things you would appreciate from your wife you are going to LOSE her. Sorry, but that is the way I feel about it. If the rest of my list doesn’t speak to you, then you better come up with a few more things that do and TELL HER. She is reaching out and wants to do this and you are saying “That’s OK, luv, you’re quite right the way you are.” BORING BORING BORING. You need to tell her which of those things gets the warm and fuzzies going in YOU then WATCH for her to do them and LET HER KNOW it is working. She needs FEEDBACK that her efforts are having some results, or she might quit on you.

Don’t worry about “proper” or “image” or “appearances.” Love your wife as hard as you can and let her love you back. Why shouldn’t it be fun? Why shouldn’t you trade in the khakis and pith helmet for the loin cloth once in a while? You tell me where it says in the Bible you CAN’T enjoy your wife. You tell me where Jesus himself was anything BUT passion. This isn’t a game to her, this isn’t “Let’s Play Figure Out Mr. BV for $1000,” it is her LIFE. I think that a woman may get some personal satisfaction for "keeping" a man. Don't know for sure, but I think it may be a large part of how BV defines HERSELF. It may be part of the disappointment the WW feels when the OM moves on - she couldn't "keep" him. A FWW would have to witness to that, as I am guessing. You HAVE to respond when she reaches out. So what if the kids see and hear you giggling and goofing like a couple of newlyweds. Maybe they will decide they don’t want a boring marriage when they see that.

6&7? C’mon man. My four year old would have a better list than that. Swallow that friggin pride and throw the wife the life line. It is OBVIOUS to me she needs this from you and I am only reading her posts.

Back to you BV

BV, small sliver of a 2 x 4 for you. Just a wee one. Your list was good considering. It must be hard sorting out what you want. Last one isn’t really something to do as much as NOT to do, but that is OK by me because it is important Mr. BV knows. He does sound like he understands that.

The little 2x4 is it could have been more specific. Like the little surprise thing (#3). A little bunch of flowers or something. What? Half dozen fish? A pound of oranges? Sorry. Would be great if he “just knew what” but you may have to train him a bit. Or at least get him to ask his friends. But be mindful, you can’t bust his chops if he tries and doesn’t bring back something you would like. I mean you should hammer him if he likes fishing, you don’t, and his surprise is a fishing rod. That’s just stupid. But if he brings you, say a hamster, because he thinks they are cute and cuddly and you think it is a fat, smelly rat, you can’t bust the guy for that. He IS trying. Let him know it wasn’t what you wanted, but don’t shut him down for that or he’ll quit trying. You can laugh and make fun if he doesn’t get it right in a kind way, but MAKE SURE he knows you REALLY APPRECIATE the effort. It would make a nice memory. Can’t have too many of those. Get my drift? Half the people reading would think the hamster gift would be cute, the other half not, but it IS the thought that counts, the fact that he was thinking of you.

Wishing I had a cool sign off like JL, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

NCWalker

I mean JL has the coolest sign off.

He is all:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Dear Whoever,

Blah blah blah, type type type.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it makes you go back and THINK ABOUT IT.

Really cool.

And all I can come up with is:

Half dozen fish,

NCWalker

NC,

LMAO!!!! (That's "laugh my arms off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

You are friekin' funny! If RH brought home half a dozen fish for me tomorrow, I think I'd take him right upstairs and...

I'm serious, now....you are a riot!

And yes, part of the problem we as FWW's go through during the withdrawal is dealing with the "we couldn't keep him" thing. Sad, but true.

Man, I can't tell you how much I enjoy your posts!

Bye,
Julie

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>