RAP - Good to hear from you again. Yes your husband is very articulate. That is good. Hope that you, BV, Crazed Love, Bosstenor, and the rest can get through this.

I have lots of hope.

RAP, I'll reply to you here because I know RWS doesn't like threadjacking.

I don't know where that little outburst came from.

I guess I can see it all from a bit further down the track and I know there's no easy way over this - you just have to go through this.

I'm a bit like a reformed smoker - I want everyone to see the light. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You people are all such lovely people, you, NCW, RH, Onlywords, BV, RWS - oh, all of you, and to see the pain just makes me want to weep.

I think I'll just shut up in future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> What a coincidence, I have PMS!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jenny

KiwiJ,

Don't shut up. The more you talk, the less chance I have of looking quite so stupid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding. Really. Your insight is helpful. It is just sometimes hard to believe.

How long has this been for you in recovery?

Kiwi J,

I am sorry. I am in a strange mood tonight. I'm just playing around.

Thanks for posting.

Pam

Ladies, we can do this. Or at least we can try. I am the BS, but still have my hopes up to be the proverbs 31 woman.

Wonderful advice here!!! I to am a WW, I wanted to mention something about the on/off affair...If you can hardly deal with the withdrawls now...just wait to see how bad they are the 2nd or 3rd time around! Trust me I know from my own personal experience. I tried to remain "friends" with the OM (before husband found out about A) since thats how it started, I thought I could handle just friends. Not so. It started again.

My husband found out about A after the OM and I had mutually ended it (again for the ? time), then my husband left me. I have gone through the withdrawls alone...and believe me it was worse than ever this last time. Yes LAST TIME!

One of the best possible things about my affair coming to light is I now will not start it up again...thus saving myself from going through future withdrawls. Strictly follow the extrodinary precautions...if you contact the OM the whole process gets worse trust me. They may seem silly, but they will save everyone pain.

So here I am almost 2 months since D day...with no contact with OM, and a husband who has said he wants a divorce!

I will not give up, and I continue to impliment plan A. I will go to the ends of the earth to save my marriage. By the grace of God hopefully my husband will see I have changed my perspective and my life!

I just wanted to let you know how lucky you are that your BS are being so supportive during your withdrawls. It could be worse...they could have left you...then you would have had to suffer through the withdrawls alone. Wondering if your life will ever be happy again? Or if your husband even wants to still be married to you anymore? Just a few thoughts. Take care!

Do the work...put your heart into it saving your marriage. The withdrawls do get easier, but if you go back I guarantee next time will be worse. Be thankful for your loving husband's support. I too hope to be in recovery soon...with my husband by my side!

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: lostnlonelygirl ]</small>

Pam you probably don't know my story. Don't worry I'll be brief and it doesn't contain fish.

A with old HS B/f. Hadn't seen each other for 30 years. His line, I've been in love with you since I was 15 years old and now I've finally caught up with you again, which I knew would always happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

A lasted 18 months. Ended in June 2003, because he wouldn't leave his wife. I didn't tell Rob about the A and started withdrawal with a couple of contacts until October 2003 when Rob found out by finding relationship books I had, he asked, and I confessed.

December 2003, OM e-mailed me, I replied very shortly and told Rob about e-mail.

January 2004, I went looking for OM to tell him Rob knew. OM said I'm sorry I ruined your life smirk, smirk. I told Rob I'd seen him and that he wouldn't ever contact me again.

April 2004, Rob told OM's wife because I kept wavering about wanting to contact OM. She was calm and believed every word. Well, she would because OM and I were teenage sweethearts everyone thought would marry. When he met his w, she knew how he felt about me but by then I was engaged to Rob.

Since then, up and down, but about a month ago Rob had nearly had enough of me looking off into space (STILL!) and said he thought it would be better if we divorced.

Major drama, major outpourings here to JL and anyone else who'd listen. Then peace and calm and lightbulbs in my head.

And to be honest, really, really honest, I don't know what I was thinking. It's like an alien abducted me for 2 years, then put me back as a normal person.

Well, ramble, ramble, ramble.

Jenny

<small>[ July 15, 2004, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ ]</small>

The aliens abducted me too! But I'm back on earth now. Problem is my husband still thinks I'm part alien.

Don't worry lostnlonely, you've found all the right people here. You are determined to rebuild your marriage.

You'll make it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BTW, OM's goal (just carrying on from my previous post) was to finally have sex with me because he hadn't when he was a teenager, then we were meant to go on our merry way, no one hurt, no one emotionally involved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So far my H has been hurt, my kids have been hurt, my SIL and BIL have been hurt, my mother's been hurt, I've been hurt, OM's W has been hurt.......

Jenny

KiwiJ,

Thanks for the story. I feel like I am taking over BV's thread so I will stop asking you questions.

It sounds like you have had to work hard at this. I kind of need to hear that. Thank you for the input. I may pick your brain later if you don't mind.

I am still quite unavailable at times and know I need to get with it. It is still a little hard.

I know if H had not confronted OM, I would not be sitting here right now. I have not had the self-control to handle it on my own. I really am thankful. I feel like he has saved me from myself.

Lost,

THANK YOU TOO! I have already done the on/off affair and was doomed to continue it. The pain just increased every time. I really thought I could work out the "just friends" thing. Never NEVER would happen.

Thanks again for your post. I really hope your H comes around. Thank you for the advice because I think I have taken H for granted in this.

I really will pray your H will be willing to come home.

Blessings,
Pam

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Hi Kas,

I’ve posted you on the “Broken Vessel” thread this morning. (Just for incase you have missed it.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Greetings,
Suzet

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Hello BV,

I am here on and off today. As for last night, good for you and your H. Let me ask was he receptive to your overtures?? If so, then good, if not, don't worry it will change.

Next, question when you awoke this morning, did you "just go about your routines?" If so next time you do this, show him a bit of affection in the morning as well. A comment, a smile (always nice), something, or you could go further <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Why am I telling you this? You mentioned you feel withdrawn abit afterwards. So how do you stop it? You refuse to withdraw do something even small to reengage you and your H together.

I was thinking of something after you left last night. Do you and your H use signals?? It has been my observation that most couples or at least connected ones develop signals to each other. Some are just subtle and come about by whatever means, and others are more overt and are sort of decided on to relax each other.

Let me offer you an example. Let's say your H has a favorite perfume that he likes on you. If you want to sort of brainwash him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> or develop a signal, you would wear that perfume every time you approach him as you did last night. Gradually, he will consciously or unconsciously connect the smell of that perfume to you and more specifically to you wanting to be 'with' him.

If you then get up in the morning and put it on after this pattern is set, can you imagine the "state" he will be in by evening?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> BV as you now well know passion/intimacy/love is all in the brain. And for men anticipation is a very powerful thing. It is for women, which is why they like to be romanced abit.

Let's say you like a particular after shave or cologne on him. Ask him to wear it when you are thinking about being with him. Gradually, he will associate wearing this and you responding.

So in the end you two may have developed signals to one another which often leads to anticipation and a deeper response. But, it will lead to perhaps more comfortable "communications" between you two for intimatcy needs.

Have you ever wondered why men like to get their W's intimate apparel? It is the same thing. It is in the hope that W will wear it when she is feeling frisky, thus giving the guy a clue as to when to initiate. Now of course it is debatable as to really initiated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but the point is it takes pressure off of each of you.

Finally, we love, sense, respond to our spouses on many levels, it can be smell, sight, colors, taste, touch, specific portions of anatomy or clothing. It is usually a blend.

If you and your H want to have some fun discuss the ques and clues that you give each other, and what you really like in all of these categories. Begin to share the obvious things. Discuss some of the negative clues.

For example you might find that when he does something you feel he is mad. You will probably find that often he is not, but he does not know he has triggered this response in you. He may look disinterested but actually be listening and thinking about what you have said.

Look at your H BV and start to see and sense what you have always seen and sensed but this time pay attention to it. Discuss it with him.

I think you will find that some if what you are looking for will be developed and the rest will come as you two learn NEW ways to communicate with one another.

Consider what I said, like the differences in how people are most comfortable communicating: some like to just ramble, some like intense debate/discussion, others prefer some less personal to get their feelings out, such as email, a letter, a phone message, etc. You see the point.

Learn how each of you prefers to communicate and how each of you prefer to receive communications.

An obvious one for you is that you like a "feelings" based discussion. Your H seem to prefer what I call a more "scholarly" based discussion. What you each need to understand is that you are trying to convey the same information to one another, but the format is different. Your H would rather show you by acts of love that he loves you. You would prefer to hear about "feelings" of love, than the acts.

Are you getting my drift. Start today to learn about your H, and start today to discuss these things with him. As you share, discuss, rethink, discuss, share, discuss, rethink,... you two will learn many things about one another that you don't know now, and you will be far more intimately acquainted with him.

Think about it, and then discuss it with him. You two need to develop a language all of your own. It can include, sights, smells, words, tastes, actions, touches, eyes, etc. It can be complex, subtle, and very very intimate because it is your own. It will not happen over night, but it can happen and it would be fun to develop it.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

Returning to the on again /off again affair. I had just wanted to warn you of the potenial dangers...you seem to be well aware of them though. In the midst of withdrawl it seems so easy to "just be friends". But trust me...do the work and deal with the withdrawl now...not later.

One of the reasons my husband left me was the fact that my affair was on/off over a year. It started innocently really we were just friends...then the EA began last summer...then a brief PA. We were both going crazy. The guilt was eating us alive (OM was a close mutual single friend). OM started dating another woman to keep himself from me!!! Sounds crazy but it worked. EA and PA ended and withdrawls began.

We went 6 months!!! For 6 months EA and PA were over, I know it is hard to believe, but OM wanted it over too, which helped a lot. We remained in contact though because he was a close mutual friend, and my husband still didn't know. My husband refered to OM as my best "girlfriend". He knew how attached I was, but he trusted us both..he thought OM was harmless. Thus double betrayal!!!

After 6 months the EA started up again. Followed very brief PA. Other man left for Iraq. It was all supposed to off again for good to "save my marriage". A month later EA began via e-mail. It lasted a month then it was off again. We mutual agreed it was killing us both. My secret double life had to end once and for all.

Just a few hours later my husband found the emails. I believe it was devine intervention. God knew I would keep going back if my A was not brought to light. I did try to e-mail OM the next day to tell him what had happened. My husband walked in! Devine intervention again. I was finally seeing this as my opporunity to get out...I desperately wanted out. So did OM...this was nothing we ever imagined doing to my husband.

I just wanted you to see what can happen if you are tempted to go back. Friends will never work! Least of all, your husband deserves no contact with OM for life. I feel that is the least I can do for my husband after all the pain I've put him through. Even if he divorces me...I will not contact the OM. It is hard...but I will thank myself later!

Take care...Keep posting...This is the hardest fight of my life! I'll keep posting too!

Lost,

When I can I want to reply to what you just wrote.

It says so much to me. It is all so true.

I had a very long conversation with H this morning about his confrontation with OM.

I have a lot more details now. He really did save me. It is hard to admit, but I would not have stopped this on my own. OM would have been happy to keep getting me back so easily. Yuck.

Blessings and thank you so much for the input,
Pam

<small>[ July 30, 2004, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: Broken Vessell ]</small>

BV,

Well if you cannot say it in your words, then use mine and show him this post. But, I think you do your H a injustice here as well.

As you know I am an American, but do you know what I just love about the British?? It is the "coolness" with which the language can be used to convey certain messages with just a "change of inflection" of the voice. A well place "Oh!" as a response can be merciless put down, or a sympathetic response.

You are missing something with your H's scholarly approach to this. You don't seem to understand it is a means to communicate and HIDE what he feels, thinks, and wants. You do the same thing and don't tell me that in your communications with Mr. BV you did not hide things.

You need to see if you can adopt HIS approach to communications, and had the wink, the nod, the innuendo that communicates all. Talk in the third person, offer situations for analysis. I can see you offering to do something just "scandalous" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> while discussing another person.

BV: "Mr. BV I have read that some women enjoy driving their spouses crazy by wearing (or not) very scandalous underwear."

Mr. BV sitting there smoking his pipe looks up and says in his best emotionalless scholarly response: "Oh!" He pauses and then askes "Why on earth would they do such a thing?"

BV: "Well, they do it to get attention, and to drive their spouses crazy with lust."

Mr. BV looking a little confused by this turn of the discussion: "Ahum... And what do they expect to get from this?"

BV: "Well the rumor is that it makes their intimate moments...well...more intimate."

Mr. BV still a little puzzled by this discussion: "Well...I mean is this something that would interest you? Is it something you think might interest me?"

BV smiles gets up and says: "perhaps we'll find out won't we?" And the game is afoot as they say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


BV, you are too focused on how you want things and you need to lighten up enough to take your H's strengths and use them properly. He will talk to you. He will listen to you and listen to some very painful things. He is really pretty unique YOUNG LADY After all of that he loves you and then you say: You don't get his "scholarly" approach. You don't have to get it, you have to use it to start enjoying your life.

Life is not supposed to be all drama all of the time. Your H prefers a quiet approach, a subtle approach, what he wants to approach is the same thing as you. You have NOT realized that yet. In all of the years you have not figured ONE SINGLE BUTTON that really opens him up. But, it is there, and I know it is there because of his deep love for you. Go find the darned button BV. Spend the weekend in "scholarly" discussion of sex, feelings, marriage, life. And then use what you learned.

Start wearing the "right" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> clothes again. Start joking with him again. Get in bed and make him smile with a joke, relax and enjoy instead of making all of this such a drama. If you like him wearing an aftershave and it does something for YOU, darn it tell him it turns you on or it makes you think of him in very intimate ways and you just love to think of him this way. He will wear it for you and he should.

I understand that he does not care or maybe even enjoy these smells but you do, so tell him. If he comes for breakfast without it, send him back up to put some on, then smile and kiss him. Or perhaps a more subtle "For got something this morning have we?" Give him a wink and send him up for it.

YOU NEED TO BECOME HIS PARTNER AND WHEN YOU DO HE WILL CEASE BEING YOUR FATHER. BV, he just might...become your lover. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Teach the man about this, about you, by showing him, not telling him about your "feelings" and FOR GOD SAKE, get rid of the thinking that says : </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he really loved me he would know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you realize that even if he does love you he doesn't know. OM did not either but you told him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This is like going to a fortune teller, they do a remarkable job of telling us things about ourselves because we tell them what to say, it is in our speech, our hands, our faces, our clothes, our accents. Almost all of the knowledge they need we bring to them and then they tell us, they don't know us, they don't read your mind. They see and know patterns and it works enough for them to make a living. Except somehow in marriages we hide these same messages that an OP uses or the fortuna teller uses.

Do you know how many WS's come here and start by saying, well at first we were just friends, and then we started discussing our marriages and what was wrong with them and what our spouse was not providing, etc. Well DUH! the OP has been given a road map to address the unmet needs.

But remember these same WS's will not discuss what the sposue does well, or why they love them, the focus is on the UNMEET needs, and so the roadmap is laid out, OP meets these needs and the A is off an running.

BV, there are FEW exceptions to this story, and you are NOT one of them.

Even more interestingly the WS will often keep trying to explain things if the OP doesn't understand, they will try different analogies, different words, different approaches, including the "scholaraly" approach. "What would you think if someone did...?"

Another reasons A's fail is because the OP does not meet ALL of the WS's needs because they don't know what they are, they only know the unmet ones. So A's fail frequently, as yours did. Your H meets many needs for you, and one of them is by providing a stable family life for you and your children.

BV, if you want something, if you need something, if you would like help, TELL YOUR H. Don't make him guess, I can assure you did not make OM guess. Of the time you worked for him, and he was around you, he was TOLD by you everything you wanted, and any thing else he did, he did because HE wanted it, and it did NOT matter what you wanted.

Spend this weekend talking with your H. Discussing the days when you would wear that ***, which told him he was going to be a very very lucky boy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Talk about this things, and learn to use HIS speech to kid him, communicate with him and learn about him. Then you may be in for a big surprise.

BV, there is a lot more to Mr. BV than you realize and when you do, you will see why you married him and why you should stay married to him.

Think about this. I will be gone most of the afternoon, so if I don't get back, have a good weekend.

God Bless,

JL