CV

Sorry I caught you on a bad day.

SD

CV, I don't know what I can say to help you through this difficult time. But it's just another stage in this brutal process. With him or without him you would still be doing this grieving. I would remind you not to beat your H up anymore. It's not going to be productive. He is very much walking on eggs and afraid to make any mistake. If you beat him up and he says the wrong thing you will magnify it and do more damage. It's not fair but let's assume he is in his own hell. Try to get him to hold you and empathize with you.

I will tell you a story that hopefully will allow you to see that there is an end to the pain. Last night I took my family to my favorite restaurant growing up. This is also the place W had me take cutie to the week after she slept with him. So here I am buying him pizza and beer not knowing she was intimate with him. How unbelievably insensitive. But last night we sat across from the booth we were in 2 1/2 years ago and while I'm aware of the memory it really doesn't hurt now. Honest. It is overshadowed by all the good times. The time I went there as a kid with my parents. The time I snuck beer into the restaurant as a teenager and the times I have spent there with my own children. The one incident doesn't define or rewrite everything that has gone before or will come after. I hope today is a better day for you and you will be stronger for having gone through this. You will be more valuable to your patients for having gone through this. There is a God and you will someday find the reason you had to suffer like this. And someday may your love for your H return. SH told me 80% of all marriages go through this. A staggering number but it does demonstrate that there is hope. Hope this finds you in a better place today. Hugs.

WOE

WOE, I thought my days of sitting at this computer crying were over. I guess not. Reading your post just got me going again. This might be long, so just read it when you have the time.

Over the past month I have noticed a change in H. I wrote about it on this thread. He had been reaching out to me throughout the night, doing things again he had stopped doing while in the A, and SF was very good. Before this positive change he actually said that OW had stolen his affection. So I have noticed all these positive changes decreasing. We talked about it 2 weeks ago and he felt better and closer to me again. Now the detachment is back again.

Yesterday morning when we woke up I confronted him. Basically I made him look at it and he acknowledged I wasn't nuts in my perception. Something was going on with him. He has sworn to me he isn't in contact with her. Did again this morning. However she is invading our M again in some way. H obviously feels badly about this, that she is still in his head, but doesn't know what to do about it. Claims he wants to be with me. So I actually mentioned to him what you said to me, how I need to let him see my fears and hurt. So I let him see that side of me. It wasn't too intense, but the pain of the A for me was apparent. He made no move to comfort me. He obviously felt bad, but nada in the comforting dept. At least up until a few months ago he would actually hold me or something. So I brought that to his attention. In which he said I should tell him what to do. This is the conversation that followed. Me: "Did OW ever cry in front of you?" H: "Yes." Me: "Well what did you do when she cried?" H: "I don't know what good it will do us to talk about this. To bring this stuff up." Me: "H, this is exactly what we have to do. So what did you do when she cried?" H: "You know what I did." Me: "Tell me what you did." H: "OK, I comforted her." Me: "Tell me EXACTLY what you did. Where were you, and what did you do?" H: "We were in the office and I got up and put my arms around her." Me: "H, when you can treat me like you treated your GF then progress can happen."

He went to IC shortly after that. We spent the day together and not one more word was said. We didn't hold hands, nothing. I felt exactly like I did when he was in the A. Totally alone! With a man who refuses to communicate. Last night I went out with a bunch of my cousins, SIL, and my aunt. These are people who I am close to. Except for one person no one knows what I have been through. I totally cut myself off from the people who are close to me to save H from the anger and disappointment of my family. I realize this has been at a great cost to me. It isolated me from the people who love me.

One week ago I felt like OW couldn't make H forget what we shared for 26 yrs. Now I think maybe she won. Whether he will ever be with her or not, she won. She did steal his affection. She was a poison in our M, and maybe she just can't be extracted.

I know, I'm pretty friggin gloomy. Sorry! What hurts is that I had gotten to such a good place within myself before all this crap happened. I felt like I had done the work on myself and felt really good. I want to find ME again. I've gotten lost in H's dysfunction. Today is also my dad's b-day. Maybe that has some effect on me. In a little over a month it will be the anniversary of his death. My shrink and I were talking about how I haven't even grieved his death yet. I haven't. I was too consumed with losing my M. I am also reliving what H was doing with OW while my dad was dying. Not a good time of year for me.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your story. I hope I can get to that point that H's total insensitivity last year doesn't continue to cloud good memories. Thanks for your support! I'm not sure what I'd do if I didn't have you and others who understand the insanity of trying to heal from this trauma. CV

CV, I'm not going to give you any pie in the sky type answers. The pain is real and brutal. The conversation you had with H would be extremely difficult for me if not impossible. My case isn't the same as it was really a one way street. Your's has two willing participants and apparently quite an emotional bond. I have also been told by IC that I need to "lovingly detach" from my W because of the reason you said; you simply get caught up in their insanity. Yes, it can break you if you let it. But the OW didn't win. There are no winners. Maybe you and H can rebuild. One thing is for sure; she didn't erase 26 yrs of memories you and H have built. That will surely become clear as time goes on. That is definitely the point of my pizza story. It is a very bad blip on the radar. It will pass. I watched a guy talk about Martha Stewart today and say you can either be broken by such an event or you can grow from it. I don't have to tell you this as you have a strong background in this field. The thing that is encouraging in your situation is that you are dealing in reality where I am dealing in fog and denial. At least your H is being truthful. I know that may not be helpful but the truth is at least something you can work with. The greatest gift I ever got was my W's confession early on. That helped a lot. I know you didn't get a confession but you are getting at the truth now. That is something you can work with. Stay in the fight. Don't drive him into the fog and denial that I am dealing with. While SH told me W couldn't possibly understand my pain, I think that is exactly what drove her into this denial mode. It is simply too painful to look at the one you love and know that you broke them. Yes, broke them. But as you bounce back as you will inevitably do it may help both of you to get closer. I can't imagine what the death of a child would be like but I bet it puts ridiculous pressure on the parents relationship. Just like an A. The pressure it brutal for all involved. Maybe if you view H as your friend for now and help him get back on solid ground you can again rebuild your M. You can't speed it up and that sucks. I certainly feel your pain and still have lots of dips. But you can't worry about relapses anymore than you can worry about the next OW. It's useless. You know exactly what you would do if there was a relapse or another OW. That is the unspoken truth for all of us BS's. That is intuitively understood even by the foggiest of WS's. They know that is not an option if they expect to remain in their home. I hope you have a better weekend. Don't hesitate to reach out to me as I'll check back.

WOE

Thanks WOE! You're a great guy! I'm sitting here thinking just how strange this all is. I'm spilling my guts, lately mostly to you and SD, two men who I've never met, about the most intimate things in my life. Here you guys are, and many others at other times, just trying to help me save my M. It's kind of mind boggling for some reason. It's also strange because we are all doing what all the affair books say you shouldn't do. That is talk about your Ms with the opposite sex. Yet somehow it works here because we all know that we're here to save our Ms.

WOE, you're right, the pain is brutal. What strikes me is that whatever the A was it's terrible. In my situation H was very emotionally attached to OW. And the PA was going on for months too. It's kind of eerie. She really replaced me, not only because they worked together, but because of the kind of business H is in. The funeral home is a literal home. She was there to greet him every morning, and they spent hrs. alone together. What a great set up. And then there was moi, the dumb, trusting W. OW even joined the church H played guitar at every week. It's kind of amazing he went pretty much cold turkey when I told him it's her or me, given the degree of his attachment.

In your case you didn't have to deal with an ongoing PA. You didn't have someone who was dying to marry your W. But you've had to deal with the OM in your face and a foggy W for so long. Just as brutal as my situation, if not more so. Yep, none of it's easy.

I am better today. After what I wrote yesterday H came home and we went for a walk. A man who works for H is good friends with OW's dad. This man told H that OW has a BF. Isn't that interesting? Late May she was interested in getting together with H. Anyway, I asked H how he felt. Was he jealous? He claims not. He said it's helping him to move away from her quicker. I told him that I want to feel safe whether OW has a BF or not. I think what this info has done for H is to further let him see her dysfunction. Most of what I'm saying are H's words. She dumped her H pretty quickly while she went right after my H. When H's expartner moved and ended his friendship with OW because of her deceipt, H noticed she wrote him off without a 2nd thought. She of course wrote me off very quickly. She has been divorced since the Fall, H ended contact with her in March, and now she has a BF. H told me she is someone who will always need a BF. As time goes on I don't think she's looking too attractive to him anymore, although he admits grieving the fantasy.

He then told me what his shrink told him the day before. He told H that many woman in my situation would really want to get even with H. Would be so pissed off would try to cause him pain. He told H that if I have been containing my rage over this A "CV is one hell of a woman." Well thank you H's shrink. You're right, I am.

As we're walking, and H is talking about all his realizations, the conversation turned ugly. I won't go into the details. I'll just say that something he was talking about pushed my buttons. It was a trigger about his behavior during the A and I pointed it out. Suddenly I went from being "One hell of a woman" to the woman who makes his life soooo difficult. It is amazing to me how we BSs have to take all this crap, but how little the FWS can tolerate. I think you're right, they can't face the pain they caused. This led to a conversation in which H actually wondered if we should separate because recovery doesn't seem to be going well. At this point I lost it. I almost flung a chair at his head. I said, "What recovery? We're not in recovery. Until you're done with this withdrawal there is no recovery. Until you and I are working on recovery together, there is no recovery." I then went on to tell him if he wants to leave fine, he can tell our boys the reason tomorrow. I was so loud he was shutting all the windows because he was afraid the neighbors would hear, which is also funny. He was totally oblivious to meeting OW at local parks and local restaurants, yet he doesn't want the neighbors to hear anything.

I'll try to wrap this up. I decided instead of spilling my guts on MB I'd send H an e-mail, telling him exactly how I feel. He wrote me back and it was positive. We both want to just escape from this situation. I then went with my B and SIL to a killer Pilates workout and then cancelled all the calories burned by eating at a great Italian restaurant. We drank wine and toasted to my dad on his b-day. It was ironic H wasn't with us becuase he hasn't been a part of anything concerning my dad for the past year.

Driving home last night I kind of felt like me again. I had a good time. We laughed a lot. I was funny again. I felt like I'd be OK if H and I split up. He'd be the loser if he gives me up. Things were good with us last night and this morning. Wow, talk about a roller coaster. Yesterday was one big roller coaster ride.

WOE, thanks for your encouragement. You too SD if you're lurking around. I know my posts are way too long. It's my way of just releasing all this crap. Truthfully I am thankful for you both, and so many others over the past months, every day. I feel like I have made good friends here and know it is a gift. CV

CV, I just found it funny that you said I'm a great guy. Out of all the things you have said about my W nothing would piss her off more than to see that comment. Her family and our mutual friends are always saying "what a great guy". But the implication is that she isn't worthy or that she is less than or something. At least that's how she takes it and that is so unfair for her. While it is a compliment I can really understand, after all these years, how it hurts her. She is a great person in her own right and that kind of comment hurts her. Trust you understand this.

Anyway I wanted to comment about the Funeral Home. You're right it was an ideal setup and that is all the more reason you could try to find forgiveness. If you were alone in such a setting day in and day out can you honestly say that you wouldn't get attached? You don't know and neither do I cause we haven't been there. But try to find empathy for your H. I believe he is trying and you are having real honest discussions. How I wish I could get to that point with my W. Someday.

As far as the danger of this sight I suppose it's real. But if you stick to the rules and don't post privately we'll all be fine. But I also can understand what SH and MBers are preaching; that if you have a great marriage that is your defense from A. I just hung up the phone with SIL. She asked where W was. I told her at outdoor concert with pool team. She asked why I wasn't there. I reiterated my position of NC. I know SIL is starting to get it. This may prove a valuable friend when the **** hits the fan some day. No matter what it's important for me not to be going through all this alone. That someday wife leaves because I've made some kind of mistake. I don't want everyone to rewrite history and say "oh what a piece of **** he was anyway". I've worked to hard and cried too much to suffer that fate. Oh, yeah she's out all day with the pool team today. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Sorry to be a downer myself today.

Woe, H and I are going away until Th or FR, so I wanted to respond to your post before we go.

You are a great guy. How do I know that via the internet? Well I was trying to figure that one out and this is what I came up with. I think most of us on MB are being about as real as anyone can be. Maybe because we are anonymous here, maybe because we are all experiencing the pain of these As, maybe because we are trying to save our Ms...I just think who we are comes through are posts. It's like the essence of who we are comes through. I'm sure you are much more than this, but what I sense from you the short time I've known you here is that you are a very kind, gentle person. You are beyond patient, have a tremendous amount of love in you, and the capacity to forgive. Plus, even in your own pain you have been able to reach out to me and others. To me, that is being a great guy.

It's interesting what you said about your W would be angry at that description. H e-mailed me back after I e-mailed him. He told me he never believed I thought he was a good guy. Now he knows he is a good guy. My therapist and I were discussing this today. I always thought H was a good guy. That's what I liked about him. I sure didn't think he was a good guy this past year. He was a schmuck. Shrink told me that people who never feel like they are good enough sometimes will do something really bad. Almost like they finally do what they've believed about themselves all along. She said H now needs to really realize he is a good person so he doesn't try to be good, but he is a good person. Does that make sense?

So maybe when your W hears people talk about you it just points out that she isn't being so great right now. And she isn't. She doesn't want to face that or admit it, because if she did she would stop her behavior. Does any of this make sense?

Concerning H and the funeral home, I'm not at the empathy place yet. I definitely understand it. I don't think he would have ever had an A if he had to sneak around. It was all so easy, and the little "B" constantly reassured him how right it all was. But the bottom line is H allowed it to happen. At the moment I'm in this weird place where the whole A just doesn't even seem real. It's like H is my husband again, and for the moment I've forgotten what he did emotionally. It will come back, so I'm enjoying this while it lasts.

Woe, I'm wishing you good things. Just keep listening to Steve and following your gut. I hope your W wakes up big time, but if she doesn't one day you will have someone you deserve if it isn't W. Take Care! CV

CV, thanks for your kind words. I am a great guy now. But when I gambled I was the most deceptive person you could imagine. I have put her through hell in many ways. So yes I have a lot of love for her and a tremendous amount of patience but everyone has a limit. I recently told her something very, very personal from my childhood. It was on the advice of my shrink to try to get connected to her. It was something my father said to me. My W responded "and you still speak to him". My father is at my house 5 days a week and I have always been his favorite of 6 kids. There is no lingering effects to the pain he inflicted as a kid. But I wanted to convey to my W that anything is forgivable. I don't know if that came across but I'm glad I tried. It showed her how much I trust her if nothing else.

Everything you said makes a lot of sense. She has had a low opinion of herself and finally decided well if that's what people think I'm capable of I might as well do it. She came from a brutal childhood and that is the most difficult thing to overcome. I told her yesterday that no matter what happens she is a great person and she was my savior when I met her. I really meant it. I just want so bad to break through her wall. I have so much to give her. Maybe it's too late but I remain optimistic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It sounds like you and husband are doing very good these days. I'm happy for you. Of course there will be the dips from time to time but hopefully less and less and further apart. Hope you're having a great vacation. I really look forward to being a smashing success story in recovery. I could sure talk about patience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Everything in God's time.

WOE

WOE,I knew my state of mind, where the A felt like a dream, wouldn't last long. Maybe I will write details later. I wrote on Haywire and Noodle's threads. What I wrote might clue you in to my state of mind on this rollercoaster ride. I hope you are OK. CV

CV, thanks for checking in. I well understand what you mean. I will visit the other threads when I get a chance. But just now W mentioned that she would like to have a couple from the pool team at sons graduation party next June. She absolutely doesn't get it. I may not be here next June. Anyway, one day at a time. I'll be back later, we're off to a wedding.

WOE