I went back to church this morning. I had not been in weeks. Always seemed to be something that prohibited me from focusing on God lately, trips out of town, etc. I went from feeling this bright, sharp, coarsing fire in my soul, where I felt more closely connected to God than any other time of my life, to feeling totally and utterly dead inside. Literally, I sat in church today, praying silently, and realizing that my heart is becoming hardened, and I am literally becoming like that verse in Hebrews 3:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[1]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the last part of that verse that I think sums it up for me. Holding firmly till the end. I am so hurt, so needing not to be hurt anymore, that I cannot hold firmly the same confidence in my marriage as I did on the onset of all of this, and I feel like if I say that it is over, and I am moving on, that I am also saying that God can't deliver on the promise or the miracle that I should believe he can deliver on. I know I am putting a wall up. I can't believe in my marriage anymore. And if I believe in God, shouldn't I believe in the possible restoration of my marriage? I don't know. Maybe I am stringing two things together that don't go together.

The topic of the sermon today was, get this, "The keys to restoration and recovery of your life."

Gee, did God custom order this one for me, or what.

Key #1: Total Honesty (that is ironic, isn't it, especially considering this is one of the BIG elements of MB). But in this case, it was total honesty with God. Pastor referenced the verse in Psalms 51, when David finally confesses his affair (ironic once again) with Bathsheba, and how TOOOO far he went, and how he sinned most against God himself.

Key #2: Make Amends
Basically, in order to experience restoration, we must forgive. As the pastor explained this point, I said a million silent prayers asking God to show me how to do this. And I know how evil my soul can be, and that I have fallen short, and that God has forgiven me. Intellectually, I also know that I will only be offered the same measure of forgiveness from God as I offer others. But in my soul, I am having trouble seeing how I can ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever, did I mention ever, forgive this. I need to keep praying on this, because it is hard to imagine this. Mark 11:25 was the verse we discussed for this key.

Key #3: Develop a New Focus in Your Life I thought this one was interesting. In order to move on, well, you have to move on. I need to chew on this one more. He said "If you are having trouble figuring out what type of perspective you should be having on a problem or situation, you should reference the bible and see what God thinks about it. Then adopt that mindset." Verses referenced for this one were 2 Corinthians, Chapter 3.

Key #4: Resist the devil . he will try and trip you up, slow your progression, and mess with you. Submit to God first, and then you will have the power and resources to resist to the devil. James 4:7

Key #5: Develop a Praise Mentality I definitely need to work on this. The Christian walk should be one of stability, not these ups and lows and I love you God now, but I fall off the face of the earth later, etc. Psalm 34:1

Key #6: Develop a "Word" Vocabulary Basically, one should be so entrenched in the word, that you speak the word of God in your life, almost unconsciously. He referened in the verses from Psalm 91, where it says "2 I will say [2] of the LORD , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust." What if he didn't feel like God was his refuge, his fortress??? He said it anyway. It was part of his vocabulary.

Key #7: Learn how to earn and discern God given relationships
People need to surround themselves by others that share in their religious views, principles, etc. Romans 8

Key #8: Believe that God has an incredible future for you Isiah 43:18-19

Thought I would share these insights, especially since all of us are trying to recover and resore our lives, no matter the condition of our marriages.

I have some thoughts on a lot of this too, I would like to talk about, but I am tooo tired.

Wow!

We had a visiting priest at our mass this morning. I felt like he was really speaking right to me. The whole focus on the mass was on forgiveness, reconciliaton, and unconditional love for each other.

He was very well spoken and I even felt tears swell up in my eyes a few times. My son even gave me a little squeeze.

SerendipiT, yes the one hour in church recharges me for the next week. Sometimes it is hard to get out of bed, but I've always left feeling 110% better.

Oh, and did I once say you were introspective?

Isn't amazing how somethings can just speak to you like that? It really helps to bring the faith back and realize that there is someone out there looking out for us no matter how bad things are right now.

A few weeks ago the topic of the sermon I went to was, Why does God let bad things happen to us? The pastor spoke about how sometimes we need to suffer great pain and loss in order to bring us back to God and to a greater path in life. That couldn't have been more true of my life. I hadn't been to church in years before all this happened, now it is one of the things I look forward to all week. I really feel like I am on the right path for the first time in a long time, although I still have a long way to go.

FL Man: Is introspective a GOOD thing????

I think it's a very very good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One of my favorite Shakespere(sp) quotes it "to thy own self be true" That is really the heart of introspective. To look inside yourself, not decieve yourself, not fool yourself.

With that knowledge and ability, you can shy away from areas of weakness, you can improve areas that need improving.

I think that is a place my own WW was lacking. Always looking to the outside instead of inside.

Aha... a sensitive, church going man who can quote shakespeare. What the hell was your WW thinking? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aha... a sensitive, church going man who can quote shakespeare. What the hell was your WW thinking? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Probably something along the lines of my WW.....but I digress.....


Same kinda thing happened to me today.

I never went to church growing up. I would go with the random friend in high school, but that's about it.

I've played basketball at a local church for the last 4-5 years.

Naturally, when D Days #2 & 3 hit in February, I started asking some of the guys I knew from there for advice.

No one ever pressured me to go to services or anything like that. I did get invited to do a bible study thing with a couple of the guys and I did that.

About a month ago, I started going. One of the guys offered to meet me outside, sit with me, etc.

I don't miss now. I look forward to it.

The pastor came up to me today before the service. He asked how I was doing. I told him I was great. He asked me to stay after to talk to him. He said that he noticed that I looked "intense" while I was there. I told him that it was so new to me that I was just absorbing as much as I could......

Anyway, the point of today's sermon was pretty much the same as what you guys had mentioned. Forgiveness, not demonizing ourselves (or others, notably our spouses.....) And for the third week running, it seemed like it cut straight to the core of me......

Funny how that works, huh?

Ethan

P.S. It's way past my bedtime, so I'll have to give the rundown of my weekend later.... it was.....nuts.........

<small>[ July 11, 2004, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: thefurnitureman ]</small>

Hi, and I love your name... I'm all for serendipity... and your name is clever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You don't know me -- very few do anymore. I used to post here a long time ago, changed my name, changed it again, and really have moved so far beyond what brought me here in the first place that I rarely find a reason to read or post here. But there are people I have grown care about here, so I come back now and then... sometimes for a "season" and post like crazy... and sometimes just for a moment... more like a snapshot of time... do you know what I mean?

Anyway, I bet you won't be surprised to know that I think I was led to this thread. I came here tonight to check on a friend who is being abused and she's "missing"... hasn't checked in and I'm so worried. I piddled around on the EN's forum and checked on someone I used to know a long time ago... and then saw JL's name and wanted to touch base with him. I wrote a thread and thought... well, I'll wait around and see if he writes, and I guess while I'm waiting I'll just see if I can find a thread or two that isn't about infidelity (it does get sooooooooooooo difficult to read the stories, doesn't it? It HURTS!)... and well, I haven't been to church in ages... and I miss it... so... here I be in your thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I LOVE when ministers give those point by point sermons that have one sentence or bullet that bring the truth home -- like your "Total Honesty" and "Make Amends"... it's just so much easier to take in small bite-sized pieces. Especially for jaded old folks like me who maybe haven't been churched in a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for posting this. It made me stop -- think -- and I will really write some of this down for future use...

Excellent, truly.

Thank you, and have a wonderful week!!

Nyneve:
I'm glad you benefitted! Maybe you can lend some insights to my confusion on this whole topic.

MBers:
I am super busy at work all, but I have so much more to say on this. I need some advice. But I need some time to compile my thoughts, my struggles on this, and I need to do some work right now, so...please stay posted.

Ok...going to be introspective (FL Man, this is for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Am I being a doubting Thomas, not fully believing in the powers and miracles of God, if I decide I am through, and ready to move on?

What I mean is, I feel done. I am tired of the hurt. The LB account is empty, bankrupt, finito. I am ready to move on. I have trouble with the religious consequences of this, because I know God HATES divorce (in Malachi, it says He HATES Divorce). And, in Matthew He calls us to a spirit of reconciliation. Yet again, however, Jesus sites adultery as the ONLY case that is allowable for divorce. But I still think He would prefer us to forgive and reconcile if possible.

The thing is, my WH does NOT want to reconcile. He does NOT want forgiveness. He wants out. Plain and simple. I wonder how much he is even really in contact with OW (I'll never know this at this point). He just doesn't want to be married to me anymore, plain and simple.

So, the facts are, try to reconcile if possible. Try to forgive and retain your marriage. But, if your WH doesn't want to, then, you can divorce, and it is "allowable," according to Jesus himself.

Then why do I feel guilty doing this?

I do not feel the guilt because I want to be married to this man anymore. Refer to bankrupted love bank reference above.

I feel guilty because I wonder if by taking the "get out of jail free card," and seemingly taking matters into my own hands by agreeing to D, I am saying to God, I do not believe you can conjer up a total miracle here.

But, but, but...God can want us to reconcile all day long, can try to affect WH's heart for the better, can try and appeal to his sense of right and wrong, but the big catch is that WH has free will, and God will allow him to exercise it, no matter how stupid it is. So, God can send him every sign available to Him, send the things that should touch WH's heart (like hurting kids who call him on the carpet, or words and actions from friends and family whose opinions he values, etc), and WH can choose to ignore it, rebel against it, and thumb his nose at God. Leaving me to make choices for myself...because I can't believe that God would want me to live in limbo forever. And I have been kind and patient and respectful, for the most part except for a few smart alecky comments recently, which now as I am typing that, I feel guilty about saying, so, for the most part, I have obeyed the command in Ephesians 3 that says we women should win our husbands through the QUIET, submitted, gentle, and respectful demeanor of the heart.

After those attempts, if they are not received, I want to believe I am free to enjoy a blessed life, and experience God's plan for my life, which may or may not include a healthy relationship in the future because my husband decided to betray and ditch me, with a man that will respect me, know God, and be more committed to relationships than WH was. Won't God honor that?

Confused. What are your thoughts? I want to walk closely with God, but feel guilty. And I do not know if that is satan trying to give me unnecessary guilt, or if God is trying to convict me in some way.

Ok...thanks for reading this long and weird post.

Hi again,

Here's what I'll share with you... and understand... this is not what I "do" anymore, this sharing of my past marriage, but I think it may help you. I'm hoping so...

In my first marriage (a 20 year marriage) we went back and forth with his cheating (three OW), our church-going and leaving and going and leaving, a final "leaving" ... and then I did the unthinkable and had an affair of my own. It was a break in my spiritual self and my spiritual walk. I don't even know who that woman was -- seriously. It *wasn't* me (but then again, it was -- I do take full responsibility and always have).

So... I came to MB to try and find help... he began cheating again... I tried to save the marriage... I began going to church again and so did he -- but ooooops -- not the same church. I'd been wounded by the fundamental church we'd attended (loooooooooooong story including abuse and an evil pastor) and I went off to an Episcopal church with a woman priest... he went off to one of those non-denominational feel good places... and boy-oh-boy was he feelin' good... he found two more women to be feelin' good with <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ... the story is all over the posts in 1999-2000.

Okay, so...

I gave up.

I didn't pray about him any longer, or about the marriage. I filed for divorce, met someone else, married him and that would be the end of the story if I weren't a Christian with "Guilt" as her middle name.

I have spent the greater part of four years feeling guilty for a million and one things. One of those things is the fact that I am in a second marriage. Had I tried hard enough in the first? Was I suppose to *stand* for that first marriage? I had read all of Gavin and Pattie McCloud's stuff, watched their show on TBN (did you ever see them? The Love Boat captain? She was the original "stander" who won her H home with prayer)... and the REAL PROBLEM was... I had ALREADY married someone else... what was I suppose to do now?

There are people here who can and will give you verses to support staying with your first spouse forever no matter what, and never remarrying. There are verses for marrying only after the first spouse remarries or dies. There are verses that support any new marriage in the sight of God (I was given many verses when I questioned my second marriage). There are even those who can give you verses for divorcing and moving on - period.

What is clear is that guilt is from Satan and that we as believers are not to give in to the self-punishment that guilt is...

So, keep praying and asking for guidance... study for yourself and don't take anyone else's word for what the truth is... God and you can figure it out.

And try to let go of the guilt. It doesn't do anyone any good and only causes confusion and you know that isn't from God either.

This is something that I certainly need to learn for myself as well. I have so much to feel guilty for, and still do too often. It can cripple you. I know!

Again, thanks for sharing this great message. It is one I need right now.

Nyneve: thank you so so so so so so so so so so much! I needed your insights. I should just get praying and let God tell me wassup!

How is second marriage going? Well I hope and pray! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi... are ya sick of me yet?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My second marriage is blessed beyond what I ever expected for myself.

My H is a shining light in my life.

Our marriage is strong and loving. I am so thankful.

My ex-H is a good man and we have become the closest thing to "friends" that you can be without crossing boundaries. (He hasn't remarried and jokes that he's always looking for his next stbx-girlfriend. He hasn't had too good of luck in the "ladies" department.)

Our children have suffered, and for that I will eternally be saddened and feel that thing I told you not to feel: guilt. It's something I'm working on, emotionally and spiritually.

I'm glad that something I said has given you a flicker of light and hope for your journey.

God Bless!

Nyneve: Thank you for the great news about a happy and well adjusted future. I hope that will be something I can enjoy one day.

Thanks again!

DipiT, you are so right. I have told my kids from the outset to pray for us. To pray for Him to show us the right thing to do, and to pray that we will recognize his signs when he gives them to us. I have told them to pray to soften Mom's heart and our own hearts so we can hear him too.

Ahhh, Freewill. That is the conumdrum, (did I spell that right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) I have also told my kids not to be upset if God doesn't answer our prayers. That God will not make mom, or us do anything. He will give us guidance if we allow it, but we can choose. And of course we can choose wrong. The key is to know right from wrong. I have chosen wrong before, even when I knew it was wrong. But we should never deceive ourselves into thinking we are ever justified in doing the wrong thing. Situational ethics is FOG. Like saying it is ok to steal if you need(want) something you don't have.

We should focus on doing right and not being right.

Great bit of introspection and self examination DipiT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: 1Fla Man ]</small>

SerendipiT - I hope you don't mind my dropping in on your thread. I spend most of my time on the Recovery Forum so I tend to miss a lot of good people and threads on the other forums.

As I read through this thread, I got the sense that you are really confused about what might be God's will for you and your marriage and that you are fighting "guilt" feelings.

There is much that could be said on that subject, but since it's late and I was just taking a "final cruise" on the forums before retiring for the night, let me just comment briefly on something that "disturbed" me in one of the posts responding to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are people here who can and will give you verses to support staying with your first spouse forever no matter what, and never remarrying. There are verses for marrying only after the first spouse remarries or dies. There are verses that support any new marriage in the sight of God (I was given many verses when I questioned my second marriage). There are even those who can give you verses for divorcing and moving on - period. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First comment, these "items" are strung together and really need to be talked about individually. Understand that the Scriptures in question pertain to Christians, not unbelievers, and to various circumtances in the life of a Christian marriage. The caution here would be one of taking a verse out of context and attempting to apply it incorrectly to a given circumstance.

Jesus himself stated that "marital unfaithfulness" was grounds for a betrayed Christian to divorce and break that covenant that the couple had with Him. (Matt.19:9)

Yes, as you stated, God hates divorce, but He does not prohibit it in the case of infidelity.

Second comment, regarding your struggle with forgiveness. Please examine Luke 17:3-4 and Matt.18:15-17. Understand that forgiveness requires confession and repentance on the part of the sinner. The "operative" word in these references is the word "IF." Forgiveness without repentance is meaningless. Oh sure, you can "love your enemy" and not return "evil for evil", and "pray for them that do you harm," as God has commanded. But that is not the same thing as forgiving a sin against God and against you.

That sort of forgiveness cheapens forgiveness to the point of being meaningless. That is not God's model. God's model of forgiveness is repentance first, forgiveness second. To be otherwise would not have required Christ's death and resurrection as payment in full for our sins. God could simply have "forgiven" all of us our sins (as some still mistakenly teach today) without first accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Standing ready to forgive, that is, to have a "posture of a forgiving heart" IS what we are instructed to have. But that is a willingness to forgive when faced with repentance, even though we may have been hurt. It is not a requirement to forgive without sincere repentance. To do so is also a form of "false humility," perhaps even "pride" in how "forgiving" we are. It is based on "feelings," not substance or obedience to God.

If your husband is unrepentant, there can be no forgiveness. If he is an unrepentant adulterer, you can be sure that if he dies without confessing and repenting, he will not be in heaven. That, too, is clearly taught. His sin is first and foremost against God. It is God who he must first confess to and repent of his sin. After that he needs to do the same with you (assuming he considers himself to be a Christian).

Third comment, regarding remarriage following a divorce. For the Christian Betrayed Spouse who divorces, they are free to marry again without themselves thereby committing adultery. But God also cautions that if they do remarry, it should only be with another Christian believer. We are specifically cautioned not to be unevenly yoked.

God bless.

I am sorry for jumping in on your topics I have recently found out my wife cheated on me for a short time and then a few months later had a one night stand two difrent men. She confesed to this after she left me. We tried to work on the marrige counseling etc. after working on our marrige for about three monthe she told me every thing. I am tring to be strong and forgive and I am not sure what to look for when a person truly repents. I have not visited with a priest about the matter. At times I feel like I can forgive but I cant earse some of the thoughts I have about the affairs. Ibelive she loves me and that she felt guilty about what happend and that she is trying to find out what to do about our marrige. In a fit of anger I asked her for a divorce she did not want one. But she is still trying to figure out were to go from here. I too am a beliver I dont always do the right thing but I have that little voice in the back of my mind telling something not always real clear but is there none the less I want to belive that we can make this a strong marrige one that we can both benefit and help one an other. But I some times feel like I would be cheating us if I stay becuase I dont know that I can forgive completely. I dont know that she asked me forgive her. She has said that is was wrong and that I did not deserve that kind of treatment, But is she really remorsefull. She told me she did it out of revenge that she thought I did not love her any more. We both have busy lifes not always giving enough time to one an other. But she says she knows now that I really love her. What should I do with all this. I think that a divorse would be the easy way out but can i stand to loose some one I really love over my dought and confusion. Or am I cheating my self Of A life that god has waiting for me please give some thoughts I could use some help

Cesar

ForeverHers: More. More. More. Your post was excellent, and I know you kinda wrote this as you cruised off to bed, but it really struck me. Any suggested readings on forgiveness? It struck me what you said about that sanctimonious, "I will forgive you, because I am so RIGHTEOUS" arrogance that we Christians display sometimes. I will check out the verses you referenced again, but, I am hearing so much at church lately about forgiveness, even if the other person is not repetant, as a means to avoid a hardened heart. I remember the instruction in Matthew, 18 I think it is, where it talks about how to go about resolving conflict toward a person who has wronged you. And clearly, in those verses, there is an expectation that if you go to your brother in love and explain how they have sinned against you, and then go again with a trusted Christian friend, and then go AGAIN with the leadership of the church, that you basically have to walk away and consider them heathens until they WANT your forgiveness, at which time, you should be at the ready to give that forgiveness.

But then again, how does one wallk the line between forgiveness when one is not repetant, unforgivenss when they are not, and then avoiding bitterness in your heart toward that person in the case of the latter?

I pray for WH often, only because as the father of my children, I don't want him to be hit with a pestulance or something. But then again, I would not want to walk a day in his shoes. He is playing with fire, and he is going to get burned. He is now facing back pain, financial ruin, and now complains of uncontrollable shaking, and spasming of his muscles, all over his body, sounds almost like parkinson's (sp) disease.

And why do I feel so guilty? Even though WH and I have civil, even friendly conversation now, I mean I have worked hard to just be who I am (basically, my mindset is that I have had to work VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY hard over the last several months to reclaim who I am, so that is who I am going to be, and I should not morph into this cold, unfriendly, bitter woman when I see him, because in all reality, I am fun, friendly, joking, upbeat and optimistic when I am being true to myself, so why should I not be that person with WH). We laugh, talk about non-threatening things, I ask him questions about his work, his plans, am respectful about my tone or reaction to his reports, etc. But, he is not sorry. He feels justified. He WAS a Christian, but he is no longer. He makes choices, conducts his life in such a way that he thinks he knows better than God. I know that with the way that WH is conducting himself, I have basically one of two choices. A.)Wait for a man who does not want me, does not see the evil in what he did, does not see how he betrayed God, me, and his family. Wait to forgive a man who, quite honestly, does not want my forgiveness. or B.) Move on. Exercise the rights that God gave me.

AAAHHHHH...I just had a thought!!!!!!!!!

I remember, in the height of the pain, in the height of everything that was going on, when WH moved out, when I had that horrifying conversation with him, when he brought pictures of us when we first dating, pointing out how "hollow his eyes looked" or how "distracted his expression was" or how "insincere his smile was" as a contrast to other parts of his life, when he was happy with other women he dated, etc. I never was hurt so deeply as I was that day. I was never ever ever so deeply hurt. This conversation hurt more deeply than the discovery of the affair. For me, the affair could be excused a terribly misguided choice. But the hurtful comments about the early stages of our love, when there was nothing keeping him there, where there were no vows, no commitments, no obligations, when I remember the magic, and fluttery feelings, and magic of early love, to have him negate that, was so terribly painful.

And that night, I literally went home, got on my knees, and prayed out to God, with tears just flowing down my face, to have help Him help me to stop loving this man. Because I knew it was killing me inside. I knew WH was taking off big chunks of my loving, trusting, fun loving heart, and they were chunks I could never get back.

Maybe God answered that prayer for me.

I had forgotten that fervent prayer that night. I think I eventually fell asleep on the floor next to my bed.

But it doesn't hurt anymore. And while I do not HATE WH, I do not love him anymore either.

Just remembered this request of God. Need to think more about whether He honored that request for me!

Thank you all!

Cesar: I think if your wife is remorseful, if she wants to work on your marriage, that God would want you to work toward reconciliation. I think if you asked Him to show you how to forgive this pain, how to take the damaging thoughts out of your mind, how to move past this, He would. I would plug into a church, especially one that offers Christian Marital counseling. I really like the Christian teachings of Gary Smalley, Emerson Eggerichs (loveandrespect.com), and Dr. James Dobson. I think you have the tools to rebuild, and have all the blessings God has in store for you. To rebuild without feeling like you "settled" for yoru wife and this lousy situation, but to rebuild and experience joy in your marriage that you can hardly fathom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He WAS a Christian, but he is no longer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SerendipiT - First, there is no "was" a Christian. One either IS or IS NOT. Only God knows for certain the status of our heart and salvation, but we are also instructed that if someone does "love the Lord" we should see evidence of that in their lives (the fruit of the Spirit).

A Christian CAN be backslidden and fall prey to sin. A Christian CAN wander off and be a "lost sheep" for a while, but God WILL go looking for that lost sheep to lead it back to the flock.

And if a Christian continues to willfully sin, God will "turn up the volume" of His search. "You can run, but you can't hide" is the sort of operative thought here. Much like Jonah, if we run, God will intensify His search until we find circumstances so unbearable that we surrender our will to His will, confess, repent, and follow Him in humble obedience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ForeverHers: More. More. More. Your post was excellent, and I know you kinda wrote this as you cruised off to bed, but it really struck me. Any suggested readings on forgiveness? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SerendipitT - You asked, so I'll give you a thread to read that I began some time ago. There are more and if you care to read them, I can provide them to you, but the greatest "readings on forgiveness" are in the Scriptures.

If you, or Cesar, would like a pamphlet that our Marriage Counselor gave my wife and I when we began recovery, just email me at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll send it to you. There are two main pamphlets. One is called, "Marriage, Whose Dream?" and the other is called, "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?"

In the meantime, here's the link to the thread I mentioned;

Forgive? Trust? Really? Has anything been learned in the past year?

I started that thread over a year ago and still find it very helpful to reread from time to time. I hope you find it helpful in some way for your situation.

God bless.