i had a lot i wanted to post today, in between getting my work done!!

a) to ask for thoughts about a discussion i hope to have tonight with H.

b) to share a note i have been writing to my H in the hopes to help his questioning soul.

c) to relate a POSITIVE story for a change, one in which i managed to respond (TWICE) in a HEALTHY way towards my H, even in the face of feeling rejected.


but what has gotten me to post quickly right now?? OM left me a msg, which i retrieved (mistake #1, i could have deleted it without even listening to it). all it said was "don't be ignoring my phone calls.... hey, this is OM, call me back" and does Karen then manage to get a grip and at least post here before doing anything else?? no, instead she stares at the phone for 5 min and then calls him back.

like 2 complete addicts we immediately start chatting like we are back the way we used to be... he saw madonna last night, got lucky and instead of being in the 3rd balcony, ended up in row 20. we are both going to be at the prince concert next thurs (thankfully, are seats are NOT near each other). i'm taking son to see blues travelers, going camping with daughter this weekend, heartbroken that i was not able to see Eric Clapton, hoping he will come back thru town at the end of his tour. blah blah blah....

OM: so, i want to see you today?
me: tough, i don't
OM: why not?
me: cuz i only want to be in a healthy relationship
OM: so we can be healthy
me: our definitions of healthy must not be the same
OM: sure, we can go out to dinner
me: that does not make it healthy!!! we cannot be a healthy relationship with me being married.

this is SOOOO STUPID!!! neither one of us wants anything serious from the other. why do i even give it a second thought. i said, whats up with you, why are you really calling me? he says, nothing, i just want to have some fun, i'm not with jackie anymore.

to anyone reading this, please understand, my brain/heart is just trying to process this and this is the best way i can do it right now. i really don't want 2x4s.

i have always maintained i have no emotional investment in this person. you all have seen me write that a million times. "mine was just physical"

damn, it does not feel only physical right now!!!!!

there are so many different voices going on in my head right now, all from different angles.

- no matter what it is for you, Karen, it is NOT anything serious to him!!!!!!

- get a grip Karen, you don't want anything serious from him either!!! it just feels good to have someone say they miss/want you. THATS IT!

- this is not the way a LOVING wife ACTS!!! love is an action, act correctly NOW. put this out of your mind. and leave it out of your mind!!!

the scary thing is, I have had more thoughts about OM this weekend. i was even tempted to call him once, except my reason for calling was VERY LAME!!!

i knew he was going to be at the same prince concert i got tickets for and my reason for calling... just to make sure his seats were no where near mine so i didn't have to freak all night about accidentally bumping into him. (man, i don't know how anyone, like lisa, could really be around OM and heal!!!!) but i knew that was ridiculous and just kept myself busy when ever i thought about OM. once by just watching my H while he was mowing the lawn.

and NONE of this has anything to do with the good stuff i wanted to post and focus on today. now i cannot even focus enough to be able to tell you all what that was going to be about.

well, now that my fingers are tired out... i guess i should just post this and wait let you all have at it.

i'm not actually saying i want to be clobbered now although i know some of you will and rightfully so and others will relate more and hopefully in the end, it will balance me out and i'll calm down and get a grip

<small>[ July 19, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

FL:

Yes, you do need 2 get a grip. The point is you keep losing the grip you had.

Clearly, this IS not just a physical relationship.

Only one 2x4: Don't go 2 the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prints' concert. Because with your lack of resolve 2 keep from saving the voicemails and calling him back, I'm "confident" you'll find a way 2 hook up with him outside the restrooms or something.

Don't go.
-ol' 2long

Dear FL,

I will do you a longer post later as I have dashed on the pc quick before I have to go.

Only just saw this as I was logging off.

Didn't want to delay in replying.

Please know I 'understand' and want you to be 'free' from all atachments to OM, in the same way as I know you all want me to be.

I have been there in the same situation as you.

Remember me last Saturday (chasing contact with OM all round the town?)

That was just on an accidental contact that day as I was driving home.

I ended up driving back into town and parking again just in the hope of seeing him.

I KNOW how hard it is to maintain a sanity.

I am thinking of you.

Kas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm not going to berrate you. All I'm going to do is ask you a question, and everytime you talk to him you should ask yourself this same question --- Is it worth it? Is it going to be worth it when your husband gets tired of it & your kids find out what you're doing? --- Is it worth losing everything you have over? --- Is it worth hurting the man you had 2 kids with and that is still there for you; the man you claim you still love? Is it worth looking into your children's eyes, knowing that they think you've torn their family unit apart? --- If it's worth all that then maybe you're not in the right place, if it's not, then maybe you need to stop being so selfish. You know that an affair, wether it's sexual, emotional or imaginary is a selfish thing. Do you think of yourself as selfish? If you don't cut it off, then that's what you will become a selfish and needy person, and if all he's interested in is to see you to "have fun", then he's selfish and needy too. You're old enough to know that 2 selfish people soon self-destruct when they live together or stay together for 2 long. Think of your husband and your children and put him behind you, unless you plan on losing everything you have to a relationship you already know is going nowhere. Goodluck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm "confident" you'll find a way 2 hook up with him outside the restrooms or something.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i'm really not worried about that happening. we avoid each other like the plague when with other people. we were both at a concert once before, bruce springstein, we made sure we did not go near each other. he will be with his buddies and will NOT want to explain who i am. i'm not sure who i will be with yet but i wont want to bump into him!!!!

i'm actually hoping it will be my H, but i don't want to force him to go. i would love to take my son but i'm not 100% sure it would be a kid approved concert. i am hearing that it is very clean but i historically Prince does not behave in a kid approved manner!! otherwise it will be my sister.

thanks BV.

lost in emotion:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it worth hurting the man you had 2 kids with and that is still there for you; the man you claim you still love? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO.

nor is it worth losing my self-integrity over again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think of yourself as selfish? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">historically i never have. i go out of my way to help people, do nice things.

these actions of mine say otherwise right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">all he's interested in is to see you to "have fun", then he's selfish and needy too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and i actually also feel bad for him knowing something else must be going on to trigger him to call me.

what i should really be doing is seeing him in a negative light for trying to use me!!!

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: FinallyLearning ]</small>

FL,
It's been so long since you've been on the right path that I don't even remember if OM is married and if his W knows.

Slips like this are the number one reason both spouse should know.

Can i please give you some advice that I hope you take? Please tell your H about the slip. Sit him down and tell him that OM called you and in a moment of weakness you called him back.

You may think that you shouldn't. That he'll never find out. Unfortunately one way or other he will so the sooner you tell him the better.

I'l give you an example from my situation. OM sent my W three e-mails. She told me about 2 of them. OK so far she's about 66% on the trust meter. She said she never read them just deleted them. I asked if she or he had contacted each other in any other way. "NO." Oops wrong. OM felt guilty about e-mails and told his W. She called me and told me that my W had v-mailed him back about the e-mails. Now the trust meter's at 33%. Even if the v-mail was to say," don't f#$%ing e-mail me ever again" it doesn't matter she wasn't honest.

Mac, the MBer formerly known as cwmac

conclusion....

it's just the selfish me trying to come out.

it's just the needy me that is wanting to feel wanted/desired

it's just the careless me wanting to just 100% relax and feel happy and with no worries.

but the real me wants an authentic relationship and is not afraid of doing this work!!! and is not too impatient to wait it out. i love my H. it is a decision i have made, for better or worse. no matter what else is going on between us, that is my choice to make.

and with that choice comes the need to do proper actions.

listening to any msgs left by OM is NOT the proper action.

responding to OM in any way is NOT the proper action.

putting this completely OUT of my mind again, and getting back to my note and the other things i was focusing on before getting this call is.

and leaving the office right now so i am not late for my dentist appt is the proper thing to do too.

mac, (the MBer formally known as cwmac)

OM is single, no W to know about.

i wish this was my first slip but it is not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

and i have not told H about slips. i came really close to telling him last time, but didn't in the end.

now if i want to tell him about this one, i'ld really have to tell him about all of them and that will really mess up his head.

so his head/heart has to get messed up again cuz stupid karen cannot stay on right track????

Please, feel free to call OM whenever you feel like it... enjoy yourself.

This is what you want.... so do it.

Do it with integrity, however.

Do it openly. Do it honestly.

Tell your H everytime ... "H, I had a conversation with my boyfriend today."

Tell you kids everytime you speak to OM ... "Kids, Mommie enjoyed talking to her boyfriend today."

If you are going to do this .... then do it. Stop tiptoeing around.... take a stand and openly tell everyone who may be influenced by this outside relationship .... "I feel I have a right to have a boyfriend."

So...... go ahead. Do your thing. But, reclaim your integrity and do it completely openly and honestly.

Tell your kids. Tell your husband. Tell your family.

Why not?

Pep

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Praying for husband's healing.

FL,

This is from your signature line. What does that mean exactly to you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

EVERYTIME you have contact with that OM you are once again stabbing your H in the heart...regardless of whether he knows it at the time.

Why are you praying for HIS healing when you are the person that is making him ill...and continuing to make him ill with all this "determined" contact?

Pardon the disrespect...

That is such a hypocritical thing to say...IMHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

committed

FL:

Just know that, every time you have contact with OM, regardless of whether you tell your H or not,

you

start

all

over.

I hope you'll find yourself soon. That has 2 be very hard.

...I remember having crushes on girls in HS. I didn't think they ever knew, but I was so silly and clumsy (and VERY SHY), that it must have been obvious. I would drive by their houses on weekends and get all butterfly-y. Gee, 2day that would be considered stalking. I do remember how hard it was 2 let go, and I wasn't involved with anybody else at the time.

But just because it was hard (and I wasn't otherwise involved - nor were they), doesn't mean it wasn't necessary 2 get over the addiction.

-ol' 2long

Definately the WW I married. It's like being in love with a memory. If I didn't have so many great memories with her this would be much easier. She has become someone else, but I still see the one I love in there. Especially latley. More and more the longer we go. Read my "wife came by to get more stuff" post to see what I mean.

Whoops! wrong thread! Disregard my last post

What need is your husband not meeting? I mean is it the pure excitement of having another man want you and desire you? If it's that, I can understand that. I think most people, even if they're dedicated to their marriages and their spouses can get their heads turned by someone else, the thing is, that's all it can be, a nice head turning moment. Not a defining moment. And yes, you should resent and hate him because the OM knows your weaknesses and he's playing on them. He knows he's built a need in you to have something to do with him. I'm probably the opposite of most anyone you're going to talk to, but as the BS, don't tell your H anything unless you're ready for everybody to find out, or unless you're planning on leaving. You'll leave him thinking and wondering all the time about you with other men, but if there's a chance he's going to find out anyway, then I think you owe it to him to tell him the truth so that he doesn't feel like a complete laughing stock. Leave s---head alone and concentrate on the man that loves you, not because you can knock his socks off in the sack, but the one that loves you for how you look when you wake up in the morning, loves you no matter how you look, smell, feel, your annoying habits, etc... It's a lot to throw away, just be careful and try to break your cycle. Get on here & see if you can talk to someone b-4 you answer the phone for him again & tell him to back off you can't stand him. Tell him something ugly that will embarass him and make him not want to call you. Quit holding on to him. Take care of yourself & goodluck.

I only have a short response being that I don't feel like I have any right to be giving advice right now.

Tell your H about everything. Keeping it secret even if it's just phone calls makes it easier to do the next time.

Also, I would also suggest not going to the concert. You have to think, what's more important, keeping the chances of running into OM low and working on your marriage or seeing Price in concert.

FL, my guess is that you'll talk to your IC about what happened and see if she can help you sort out the connections. Two steps forward, one back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i have always maintained i have no emotional investment in this person. you all have seen me write that a million times. "mine was just physical"

damn, it does not feel only physical right now!!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If not physical, then what? In order to let go, you have to be able to see things for what they really are.

What's the pattern here? It seems like there might be one, but I didn't go back and read old posts, so maybe I'm wrong. After contact, guilt and depression? Be aware of that. Take care. Maybe try to use what happened to gain a deeper understanding of the issues you're trying to work through in counseling. Understand the pattern in order to help change it?

FL,

In the subject line you wrote, “I am o.k. now,” but really, you are not. You are still addicted to OM. I am FWS, and I remember how hard it is to stop contact, but I also remember how horrible D-Day was, not just my D-Day, but I think I also remember some of your posts after your D-Day! Try to look those up and re-read them to remind yourself of how desperately you wanted your H to forgive you and continue your M.

It seems to me that you need to decide if you really want to stay married. If so, NEVER forget how hurt your H was on D-Day. Some time has passed, and you might feel like you are o.k. enough to have contact with OM, but I’m sure your H will NEVER feel o.k. about you having contact with OM.

I'm not being judgmental; I’m writing from the position of having experienced the things that you have – the A, D-Day, working on recovery, and renewed contact with OM.

Then we had to go through another painful D-Day after I confessed the renewed contact, which hurt my H just as badly, and made him seriously question if he really wanted to stay married after all! It was very scary realizing that my H had wanted to forgive me for the A, but would possibly D me anyway, for lying about contact (e-mails only), which I had finally really ended.

My H and I are still together, still struggling, feeling like giving up sometimes, then making up and moving on again. We’ve just survived a very bad week last week, and are clinging to God to help us continue through all of this.

Anyway, be careful. If you want to stay married, be determined to be stronger, and keep OM out of your life completely. Would it be possible to have your phone number changed at work?

Hey Fl,

You know I won't give you a 2x4. But I will tell you something that my FWW is beginning to find out.

The OM isn't a friend of yours he only cares about himself. If he was your friend or even really cared about you he would honor your request for no contact. He would respect your M and the decision you are trying to follow through on.

But instead he calls you, knowing it will be hard for you. He puts you through this to see if he still has a hold on you. ...to see if he still can pull you away from your H.

You may say he wouldn't do that but; that's ok. My W used to say that, but now knows that OM was only in it for himself and doesn't care about what she truely wanted.

I know you don't want to put your M in jepordy. But if you continue contact OM your H will. And your H may decide that you can't be trusted. Because your H like me and many other BS's look at the actions. And if the actions continue to contradict the words, he will come to that conclusion and let you have OM exclusively.

Please don't let it get to that.

Prayers and blessing upon your M.

S&C

i had a huge opportunity handed to me less than 24 hrs ago. an opportunity to feel really good about my actions. an opportunity to ACT with strength and commitment towards my marriage as the #1 priority in my life.

instead i now have to face the actions i did choose instead. yes, i will talk about this in IC tommorow.

i stated here that OM was on my mind this weekend, and that is true and when he then called i recalled in my own head "wow OM was on my mind this weekend and now he calls". but what i skipped over was the fact that the reason he was on my mind is because i was reflecting on what was it that i got out of the A the most (something C wanted me to be prepared to talk about this week). and i was thinking that the strongest feeling for me was that of feeling safe. and as i was thinking about it i was trying to envision myself feeling that way with H. I allowed myself to feel safe with OM. What I was thinking of as i watched my H mow the lawn was how to allow myself to feel that way when with my H. i was not pining over OM and yet when OM calls, i fall so far back i myself don't even see how much i really have changed.

the words that kept repeating in my head most of the afternoon was "sin no more" i was watching a movie on the gospel of John a week or so ago, found it at blockbuster, and i watched it one night when i had some quiet time and when it got to the scene about the woman who the villagers wanted to be stoned because of adultery, i watched extremely intensly. Jesus forgave her sins BUT he very strongly states as he sends her forth to "sin no more"

i did change the subject line again because someone said "you are not ok". now the subject makes no judgement calls on how i am, but just states the fact of why i posted.

and it may be true, i may not be 100% ok. but i am getting there. my actions were not perfect yesterday but i am getting it and that actually feels very good to be able to honestly say to myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> make him not want to call you. Quit holding on to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you nailed it on the head, i am, in a small way, still hanging on a teeny tiny bit. i do have it in my power to greatly encourage him to not want to call me ever again. i have not sent a strong enough msg and i have to face the fact that that means I am hanging on still. it might be a small amount but i am. I will correct that flaw in me!!!

H and I did talk last night as planned. more on that later, i'm supposed to be at a mtg right now.