Its been awhile since I've posted. Probably 2 years at least, maybe three. I'm back on the board because,after all this time of recovery, at least 3 years, 5 years since the A started, 4 years since DD and 3 years since I thought we were in recovery (no contact) the A resurfaced.

Total disbelief on my part. H has been happy as a clam, claiming no desire to talk to OW, hadn't heard from her in 2 years - whatever. I was out last month on two business trips one week each. During the last trip, H said she called him - what a coincidence with me out of town. (she has been married herself for 2 years now, trying to have a baby, told him she just had surgery last week to facilitate that goal).

For two weeks, even after I returned, they saw each other every other day. H says no sex - just lunch and happy hour drinks) (yeah, right), but it really doesn't matter, because he betrayed me once again, any way you look at it. I found out because after their last date she confessed to her H and he threatened to divorce her. My H had to leave that night to give her "moral support" while she pleaded with him not leave her. Meanwhile the kids and I are home wondering where daddy ran off to. Nice to see where his priorities are when the crisis comes to a head.

We have been married 13 years, two great kids who adore their dad and we have had a very happy, loving, marriage, pre and post affair, until now. ln I thought we were back on the straight and narrow almost 3 years running. He says it was just an "innocent" catching up with each other that got out of hand, and blew up when she decided to confess to her H. He says she proved to him once again that she is a drama queen and he thinks she just used him to create a scene with her H to stir up a crisis. He claims that he made a huge mistake, wants nothing to do with her, and that our marriage and family is what really matters to him...that it will never ever happen again. He says he is willing to see a counselor to figure out what his problem is.

I'm not away from home very often, nor do I neglect him when I am at home. He has a loving, loyal wife, good sex, great kids, wonderful home, job, great social life with just the two of us, and plenty of outside activities, both with male friends and other couples. We just bought the vacation home of our dreams, he just got a promotion, lots of money blah blah blah, in short, about as good a life as it gets, but he still chooses to risk losing it all to have the fleeting excitement, novelty = whatever, to be with the OW after 3 years of what I thought was solid recovery. Unless he gets outside counseling and gets to the bottom of his impulsive behavior, I will never feel safe.

This man has a short curcuit when it comes to responsible decisions, and needs professional help, pure and simple, to find out why he chooses such destructive behavior at the expense of his loved ones. That is the ultimatim I've given him.

Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade who is making good solid recovery. But I need to vent, and am too embarrassed by this relapse which totally blindsided me to talk to friends and family. I'm sure there are many WS and Bs who learn from their mistakes and turn things around. I am just devastated to discover that he is still capable of the same self centered, destructive behavior after all these years, and all that we have been through together to try and rebuild. 5 years of recovery totally destroyed in a 2 week period of weakness and self indulgence.


I will not put my kids through the pain of making him move out, just to prove a point, but I feel beaten and totally defeated. Once again, he chose her over his wife and family, lied to be with her, totally was able to ignore his family at home while he hung out with her.


My sincere prayers and hopes for all of you out there who have and are suffered through the "h" of infidelity.

everhopeful

I am so sorry to hear your story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am only 10 mos. into discovery and almost 7 of recovery. I have no advice to give you, only wanted you to know that my heart aches for you. I am so sorry this happened.

Keep posting here and you can get support and advice from all the wiser ones!

(((everhopeful)))

Everhopeful,
I can't offer any advice, but I am so very sorry and send my prayers to your family.

I am sorry for your pain. Your H needs SERIOUS help and you sound hurt, but strong. Keep to your boundaries and don't let him weasel in ANY way.

Meanwhile, go back a few steps--NC letter and ways to be sure that NC is enforced. He goes back to being checked on and responsible to you regarding the NC.

Hang in there...vent any time you need to. He has to do the work and you know that you can take care of yourself while he gets his act together.

Everhopeful, I'm new around here, but nonetheless I'm very sorry. People have asked me, what if your W comes back and then two years from now she cheats again? The right answer to this question is "file for divorce immediately". But it's a facile thing to say.

Your husband still has not learned to control his ego. He must understand this shortcoming in himself.

Good luck to you.

GC

I'm so sorry.

You are a lot stronger than me.
I unfortunately promised myself right after DD when I allowed him to stay, that if this ever happened again, his belongings will be on the sidewalk.
I'm just not as patient as some people.
I'm confident in the fact that I'm doing and have done everything that was discussed and required, through the guidance of our MC.
If he blows it, he's OUT.

I wish you strength.

Ever,

this is so terrible. I'm really feeling with you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

What are you planning to do now???

bb

Thanks for these replies and kind thoughts.

I have asked my H to write up a formal letter of intention going forward, including reconfirmation of his commitment to me, NC regarding OW, and a promise to seek professional help.

Is my situation special? I find it so difficult to deal with the fact that 99% of the time everything is great between us. We are not an unhappily married couple, do not fight, love each other and our children and get along great. This second indescretion on his part caught me totally by surprise. What do you do when you are caught between throwing away a wonderful marriage, great life, happy children who deserve a full time father (and want the one they were born with) and living with the reality and pain of a transgression of this magnitude?

My last counseler told me I have 3 choices:

1) Insist that he have therapy
2) Wait it out and hope for the best (living in fear of what may happen down the road?)
3) Go through the pain and trauma of divorce for all parties and find someone that will treat me with the love and respect I deserve.

Number three is the only option that would guarantee results, but first of all, this would
create the sadest situation for our children, they adore their dad and are far in away better off in a happy family - in their eyes, they have loving parents who are happily married, demonstrate love and affection to each other and to them. They say that kids in an invironment where the parents are fighting, things are ugly and desreseptful are in an unhealthy unsafe situation, but this is not the case. Secondly, the truth is, I love my H, he makes me very happy, he stayed on the straight and narrow for the past 3 years. Truthfully, why would I punish myself by cutting him loose, when I would truly be more unhappy without him that living with him and the knowledge of what he did? Its a choice between crying over a broken heart that I know will get better if he sincerely works at the relationship, or crying my heart out everynight for the rest of my life without him? Finally, the reality is, what is the guarantee that I would even find someone else that would make me happier? Maybe I could find someone that would not hurt me, but would I be happier? I love my husband, and again, 99% of the time, he makes me very happy, in fact, goes out of his way to make me happy.

My mother in law divorced my H's father because he was a philanderer. She remarried Mr. Safe guy, and I can honestly say that she seems more miserable than ever in her second marriage. H's father reformed, remarried and is a great guy. In fact, he has been my biggest supporter regarding my H's infidelity, in trying to help my H and convincing me that my H is a good guy and deserves another chance.

I love having a happy, loving whole family. And up until 2 weeks ago, this was my reality. We all have our limits I guess, but sacrificing the happiness of my children to teach him a lesson when it would break my heart as well, just seems
stupid.

So sounds like I am trying to convince myself why I should stay in this flawed marriage, doesn't it? Guess I will see if H is really ready to make some permanent changes. Other than that, my goal is to take care of myself, continue to be personally financially stable, take good care of my children and see them as far through this with as little trauma as I possibly can. Life is just unfair sometimes, isn't it? But we have to make the best of it.

Once again, thanks for allowing me to vent.

EH

I remember you when you posted in the past. I am much more of a lurker than poster, I am not sure if I ever responded to one of your threads.

I was in a similar situation last year with my H. I thought we were the poster child for how to recover from an A. I then discovered phone contact between H and the same OW he had an A with back in 2000. Like you we were doing great, great sex life, lots of intimacy, ens being met. This hit me out of nowhere. He had been calling her since Feb 2003 to June 2003. He even moved out on Mother's Day and claimed he could never make me happy.

I know how you feel. The second time around is more devastating, more of a betrayal than the first. I told my H it is as if I had been raped in 2000 and he invited my rapist to dinner in 2003. The magnitude of the pain was almost unbearable.

He chose to move out and when I asked him for a divorce he lost it. He could not eat or sleep, called me constantly. Said he was sorry, he did not know how he could do that. He just wanted to see how she was doing.

How do we accept that our H's can hurt us not once, but twice? I really do not know how to answer you.

My H is now the one working on the M. He is the one in Plan A. I have decided to let him carry the load for a while. I wanted to see how sincere he was. I am not distant or reserved, but I also do not go out of my way like I did before.

For the first time since his A in 2000, I believe he is genuinely sorry for everything that happened. He is loving, gladly gives me his cell phone bill, is always at home when he should be, always asks me to go with him when he has errands. Do I trust him? No, but I believe he is doing his best to be accountable <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

I really do empathize and I can understand how embarassed you are to talk to family and friends. When H moved out I did not tell anyone that he was in contact with OW, just said it was another issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Sorry double posted!

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: NOMO ]</small>

EH,

I remember you...and NOMO! I'm speechless about what has occurred to both of you. Has to be a character flaw that definitely needs exploring.

EH, your H definitely needs personal counseling. I remember in past posts that you had doubts about his traveling - but I don't recall that you were worried about what he did when you were traveling.

Doesn't sound like he's being completely honest either. The coincidence that she happened to call while your were out of town is very suspicious. If he did call her, he needs to own up to it. You won't be able to force it out of him, but maybe it will come as a result of good IC.

The fact that she told her husband is a good sign. But how sickening he had to leave you to comfort her.

One of the most difficult things I had to overcome in my situation was that my husband had to call his OW and get her permission first before he told me who she was...still burns me.

They were afraid of what I might do????? How dramatic...sheesh!

Recovery for me is going very well, but I haven't relaxed still. D-day was 2 1/2 years ago and from what I can tell we're doing well. The article in the Newsweek magazine has brought about some lively conversation - we can discuss A's in general and ours specifically without any LBs.

Also our OW contacts my husband every 5-8 months, I believe to see if he's interested in having another A.

Blessings to you, and please keep us posted as to how you're doing. You're ability to share with us your experiences this far past d-day #1 and how you're managing d-day #2 are invaluable.

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

You know what is scary to me (my H too keeps going back to OW after time periods of NC)? My H told me that he wonders if sometimes our life is just too good and that the contact with OW and my possibly finding out brings "excitement" to him. Much like a drug addict - don't you think?

I would like to hope that IC would help them discover why they do this.

I'm so sorry for your pain.

I'm so sorry.

I think the second time, it becomes far more apparent that the flaw lies in the WS. Whether it's failing to protect their known vulnerabilities, or that excitement "kick" or a kind of sexual addiction.

We hit a rough patch just after 3 years of recovery, I found out before it was beyond my ability to cope, but the disappointment and gurgle of the lovebank were still there.

I let my H know I was seriously considering divorce, he was out of town when I found the evidence, and he wasn't sure what he would find when he got home. Since I had served him divorce papers before, he knew I know my way to the attorney's office.

He did want to stay married and fix what he had done. And, I decided that the reasons I wanted to reconcile before were still good reasons, including that our kids are still home...so we worked it out. He returned to our counselor and I didn't find any sign that he continued what he had started.

We were back in solid recovery when he deployed a couple months ago to be gone at least a year, so I do look at it as a rough patch and a period of his failing rather than the beginning of the slide to the end.

I wish you strength, discernment and that every detail you need comes to you without your having to even look.

My last counseler told me I have 3 choices:

1) Insist that he have therapy

I think this is not your decision, but a personal decision that lies 100% in your H's lap. I would rather you watch and wait ... see if your H makes the decision on his own to have therapy... his desire to seek therapy , discover and change his character flaws , make the appointments himself ---> all this would certainly be a positive sign of his sincere commitment to recovery, wouldn't it?


2) Wait it out and hope for the best (living in fear of what may happen down the road?)

I think this is a totally sucky option. If this were me, I'd cross #2 out with a permanent marker. Too anxiety producing for moi.


3) Go through the pain and trauma of divorce for all parties and find someone that will treat me with the love and respect I deserve.

All the while realizing YOU did not choose this option to be on the list ...... your husband chose this as a possibility by his poor behavior. HE betrayed the covenant, you did not. Feel NO guilt if you make this option your choice.

Option #4 ----> move your husband out. Let him live alone for 6 months. Arrange a legal separation. Motivate him to "do whatever it takes for as long as it takes" to restore his position as the leading man in the family.

See..... even if you allow him to stay .... your loss of respect for your H may be permanently destroyed unless you create an opportunity for your husband

to FIGHT FOR YOU.....

as opposed to being "accepted" by you as a weak necessity for your kid's happiness.

Pep

Everhopeful!

Arrgghh! Your post is my nightmare!

You can see from my signature that we, too, are members of the more-than-once club. Our situation is slightly different than yours because after the first affair in 1997 we did very little to pull our marriage out of the pit. Hence, that OW was in contact with my H off and on over the next five years long distance. Then, two years ago I found not only OW #1 "being a friend" via email and phone calls, but a very present local OW #2.

I thought we were way past that.

Now we are more in the situation that you find yourself in. After having worked very hard at regaining a happy, intimate marriage, I am about to pronounce our union healed. And I am scared to death to do it.

Your husband said he just wanted to "see how she was doing." That is sooooo like my husband (the old one anyway). He claims he is past all that, but sometimes I wonder.

I will be praying for you. I know exactly how you feel. I hope your husband will undertake some serious counseling to find out why he fell again.

Peace to you.

~ Snow

Dear all,

I have been deeply touched and a little surprised by everyone that replied to me and offered support and suggestions. I really thought that under the circumstances, my even posting was pathetic, and no one would have much sympathy for my not throwing him out. So I have to say again, thank you so very much for your compassion and especially to those of you who have undergone a similiar situation and dared to admit it. But thats what this website is for, right?

H is went on the road on business 2 days after this new DDay. Maybe its just as well, as it gives us both time for serious introspection. We had the weekend before he left to deal with the immediate trauma and shed some mutual tears. He is in Europe, so frequent phone calls are problematic, but he has called me several times, and after my request for a written promise to turn himself around with some counseling, he told me that he is more than willing to provide this. The first time around I requested this several times, but he never did it. So I think this as a small positive step in a good direction.

Regarding the OW, I have decided that her "hold" on him, and/or her ability/desire to draw him back into this relationship after so long dispite the fact that she has gotten married in the meantime, is actually a mute point. Its not about her, its about him. He has an addiction to excitement and reckless behavior, and she is still an accessible and willing drug. Obviously this is not about romance, this is about a sleazy partner in crime who is more than willing to ignore her own marriage vows to get her personal kicks by knowing she can pull him off track once again. Its ironic that a few months ago, we were discussing his attitude towards her after all this time, and he said "I feel sorry for her H, because he's a good guy". Anyway, no excuses for my H's weak and sorry behavior, but again, I am firmly convinced that this is no true love, but a symptom of my H's greater problems and as one of you put it, ego issues.

My H has always been adament about how counseling could never help him and always refused, and at least now, for the first time, he is expressing his agreement that he needs to address these issues once and for all and get some help. I see this as one small glimmer of hope.

NOMO - "inviting the rapist for dinner" is a good way to put it.

For me its like being a post trauma victim, who finally is feeling all secure and warm in your bed and being awakened by a red hot branding iron, being tortured for a couple of hours, then being told by the one person you trusted most (who was in fact, your torturer) that it was all a big mistake and please excuse the discomfort.

Anyway I will am still having emotional ups and downs, one minute I feel functional, and then the reality of what has happened hits me and I am in shock and pain again. So much for what I thought was reality all this time. Actually I think it was real, this nice happy life we have been living for 3 years, but the other reality is that my H is capable of a relapse of such magnitude, and whether he triggered it or she did is not important, that he indulged himself at all, is.

Again, I can't thank everyone enough for these responses and outreaches of support.

I will keep you posted as to how things progress. The kids and I are joining him in Europe next week - we have saved and planned this trip for months. This week of down time being apart post crisis is a good thing for all, and I plan to enjoy my vacation with my kids one way or another. What happens when he returns and whether or not he follows through on his promise will tell the tale regarding any hope for recovery.

Thank you again - EH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) Go through the pain and trauma of divorce for all parties and find someone that will treat me with the love and respect I deserve. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course there is the very real possibility that you could go through the pain and trauma of divorce and NOT find someone who treats you with love and respect, or not find anyone at all, or, worse yet, find someone who ends up being even worse, someone who physically abuses you or your children. It is highly unlikely that you would find someone who cares as much for your children as your husband (hopefully) does.

I have been on this board for over 5 years, and I have seen numerous posters return after years of recovery to report that they were betrayed again. It seems to be far, far more common than is continued recovery - lending additional support to the theory that infidelity is about problems in the betrayer rather than "unmet needs."

There are very few happy endings, whether with the original partner or not.

So sorry for your pain. It is so typical. Any contact with the OW and things pick up where it left off. That's why the NC thing-it's the A high that these guys get.

Well, it could happen to any of them. I often wonder myself, our OW really wanted him bigtime. Their ego gets stroked. The bottom line here is yes he messed up, but what do you want to do.

I made up my mind a long time ago that this could happen again. I looked at the big picture of family and my needs. My needs are being met for the moment. Your relationship was moving ahead just fine, then contact-boom. Not uncommon no matter how many years.

I am happy that it came out into the open, that is one good thing. Do you think that it was a false recovery and that they were seeing each other the whole time, maybe just less frequently? Or maybe her marriage is on the rocks because she is a looser (OW) and doesn't know how to have a "normal" relationship and wanted a way out-using your husband. I am just giving some thoughts here, I don't know your situation and how your home life has been. Do you want to give him another chance? I know we all say we wouldn't, but it sounds like it otherwise has been going well except for this major relapse. He did major damage to your relationship. He is going to have to do the work to repair it in my opinion. I agree he needs to look at himself and get to the bottom of this. You do what is right for you. I would support you in whatever decision you make. This is not black and white because it was going well, but no you won't ever be able to trust him-actually after an affair you can't ever trust them again and that is OK if it is OK with you. Really can anyone trust anyone. You do what is right for you and your kids. We love you!

Thanks again for these thoughts.

One of the worst aspects of this situation is the feeling that my whole sense of reality the last few years was false. When OW got married she moved from another town to our neighboorhood, just a few blocks from out house, which I thought was totally psyhcotic, my H thought she was stalking him, but claimed he never ran into her, and either did I. My H has always maintained that he couldn't even remember the last time he talked to her, had no desire to have any contact with her, and thought she was off balance and basically, bad news. Then he spends the better part of two weeks spending time with her. Something is not right here. Either they have been in touch all this time, and took advantage of me being out of town, or it was a fluke relapse. Certainly I saw no signs of any prior contact or I would have been all over it. The degree to which he resumed the contact is most confusing. From nothing to at least 6 times in two weeks, twice the last day (lunch & drinks).

One of my therories is that the first time around, they had a heavy PA for a year, they were planning to run off together, and he changed his mind and stayed with me. She is a very angry and dramatic woman. I wonder if this time, she set my H up for a couple of weeks, made him think at first it was just innocent fun, and then escalated things and told him that she was going to leave her husband and invited him to join her. I found a list of apartment rentals in his car the night he went to her to help her through the divorce crisis, he tells me he was just being prepared in case I did find out and kick him out. In fact, when he called me to tell me where he was, it went something like this:

" Where are you? Well, its the same old thing - I had a fling about 2 weeks ago and her husband is threatening to divorce her, so I need to go get this sorted out, she is hysterical and might do something to herself. And I know the ramifications of what I have done and am prepared to face the consequences. Do you love her? No. When are you coming home? As soon as this is done, and we will talk then" He called me several times during the evening, and came home about 2 hours later. Ready to face the music, resigned to his fate, but said he really didn't want to move out but knew he deserved to be thrown out.

So this particular night, she went home after their happy hour date, her H confronted her, and she told him she had been with my H, confessed to the earlier A as well, and he told her he wanted a divorce. She checked into a hotel and told my H she needed him there for moral support. H claims the moral support was to keep her calm while she was negotiating with her H on the phone. (she has threatened suicide over my H several times) At the end of the evening, my H came home, told me about the 2 weeks of what he calls "hanging out" said it was never anything serious, that before he had a chance to ramp it down she turned it into a big soap opera with her H, and that they were not going to get a divorce, the moral support was no longer needed. He said he felt like she used him to create a crisis with her H, but maybe there was a bit of a revenge factor as well. If she was making him think she would leave her H and that he was getting excited about it, and then basically turned around and convinced her H in front of my H not to divorce her, this could be her ultimate revenge for his not leaving me to be with her the first time.

After the confession, her H sent my H a threatening email - "stay away from my wife or I'll tell your wife" Evidently OW did not tell him that I already know the whole history.

The next night we are trying to work through this crisis, so decided to go out to dinner alone. We were sitting at the bar and suddenly my H notices the OW & her H walk in. This is a large, crowded place and they didn't notice us - kept on walking to the back of the restaurant. My H's only comment was "Lets get out of here - I don't want to get in a fight about someone I don't even care about" We left and had an enjoyable evening elsewhere. He claims that this 2 weeks of seeing her and the subsequent blow up that she created, made him see more than ever what a twisted person she is, manipulative, unstable, over dramatic and immature.

Anyway, I thought I would share these details. Regardless of who contacted who, whether they have been in contact all along, whether or not they had sex or were just hanging out, whether he planned to move out, fell back in love with her, has been in love with her all along, whether she was using him for revenge, or to creat a crisis with her marriage to stir up some drama - the bottom line is that now he swears he was an idiot for this reinvolvment ant does not want to lose his family - he says family should be the greatest priorty for both of us (and I guess it is for me, or he'd be out the door).

And again, that he has hit bottom and admits he needs help and will seek it, this will make the difference between limping along again and really turning things around. He is a great guy, very loving, generous, fun to be with, but has some deep seated problems that he MUST address.

Thanks again for letting me share.

Wow EH,

Sounds like you are feeling the way I've felt in the past, and still do at times. I've told my husband several times that it's not just whether or not I trust him. It's also about whether or not I trust myself to SEE REALITY. Trust myself to know what's going on in our marriage.

I like so many others was so blind sided I NEVER thought my husband would have an affair...EVER.

So learning to trust my instincts, my ability to see and know how we are doing is still not what I'd like it to be.

What helps is that we both seem to be comfortable discussing OW when we need to. I've sat through his feelings of remorse for hurting her, involving her (he initiated the affair) and didn't LB - I felt venting with me was far better than telling her of course. He tells me out of the blue every time she contacts him or sees him. She's become clever at surprise visits.

Your husbands willingness to interact with his OW with her instability, threats, drama queen demeaner sounds a little self-destructive. Is he self-destructive in other ways? Or maybe it's an esteem issue - does he not think he deserves you, your children, your lifestyle?

Maybe I'm over-suspicious, but I don't think he has been completely open and honest during what you thought was recovery. What he's said over the past years and what has recently occurred just don't jive. Unless it's true that WS can go from no contact all the way up to the intensity of their two week interaction. I'm really glad her husband knows. I'm betting it will make a big difference. And hopefully your H won't feel the need to rescue OW anymore. She's not his responsibility.

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>