I'm a newbie here, and I waited a few days to actually post on the "Infidelity" board. I wanted to take in what kind of responses I received from the other boards first--and take in other examples, situations, etc. So far, all of the info that is trying to be computed is making sense--finally. (I know it's only been a few days, but I'm *very* impatient--I guess I'm a true New Yawker, you know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Some of it, I think is dangerous advice for the self esteem--if it's over, it's over and move on. *BUT* for the most part, I have gained alot of knowledge in the past few days--thanks! Now what to do with it.

My situation--please be prepared to read a novel. Some posts are so insightful and right in front of you, you don't realize it--much like love, huh? (Oh, and I work with abbreviations all day--that coupled with the fact I'm learning this site's terminology, it's going to make for an even longer post as I try to stay away from them in "normal" life!):
Friends 13; Married 11 years; Me 34 (today!); Wife 36; 4 children (two from her before we were we, 19 & 18) and two of ours, 10 & 2. We met at work--became fiends, best friends, fell madly in love and got married. (She certainly was not looking at the time; neither was I, as I was living with someone at the time--a total dependent (her part) relationship until I got out.) We moved in together, made plans to get married, got pregnant, pushed up the wedding date by a year as we wanted to be married before our child was born, and for the first few years, we were the ideal couple--a couple who friends always looked up to and admired.
Because we work in the same place and we had the availability of working two different shifts, we did just that. (I know all of the posts talk about not putting that space there, but out of necessity for daycare, we had to. It actually made our relationship stronger--it made us not take things for granted and made our time together that much more intense--and our love.)
About halfway through our marriage, she had a nervous breakdown. A lot of crap from her past that was waiting like a time bomb to go off and she certainly did implode. Issues that had nothing to do with me, but one: How can anyone love me so much and I don't even love myself? Through years of my encouragement and her determination--what a difference! She has done absolutley incredible for herself!--she is quite a woman--not the same woman I married, but nonetheless. In the meantime, I realized I am a gambler. (And not your run-of-the-mill gambler either--"scratch-offs" only--you know, instant gratification? But that's just everything like me as I see and have been told--I'm not your stereotypical man. I know that sounds conceited, which it's not--I am only learning now how to be selfish.)
We started our downfall a few years before her breakdown--20/20 is hindsight. We started losing touch with "everything"--but I always received the response, "It's not you. It's me." I didn't know what was going on until that day when life came crashing down around her and she hit rock-bottom--and hard. I didn't understand. But I still stuck by her as best I could and gave her as much support as I could muster up, while still maintaining a household completely by myself and raising three children by myself. I gave everything I had. Hence, I'm realizing now that my gambling problem took off--we were having monetary problems, on top of the fact I wanted to give this woman and my kids the world. I didn't see it as a problem at first and I had her as an enabler--what did she know in the state that she was in?--but, again 20/20 is hindsight. Now, both on the road to recovery (really, there is no recovery--just knowing how to deal with it (depression and gambling)), making leaps and bounds with our progress (separately--which HAD to be done alone, even though we were "together"); we are now just coexisting. I finally started to stop stuffing--just a glaring example of how when one rectifies one thing, there is a deeper meaning to it, and certainly more questions erupt--and expressing myself. But, in the situation we were (still are in many ways) my expressions were not really what she wanted to hear. I threw my hands up, gave everything, noone was responsive, expressed this as well, and verbally and, well, in all ways, said "I give up." That was probably about two years ago, even though it started well before that. I thought the birth of our second daughter (which she too was unplanned) would be a trigger--a good one. A blessing--absolutely, but, not the results I thought that would flourish in her. Still no response. All we were doing was coexisting. (We are still working different shifts, but we flip-flopped them.)
I was not getting any (ANY) satisfaction from my marriage. If anything, I was hurting real bad, I guess baby steps into my own depression. (I REFUSE to go there, though!) I emersed myself into work, where I have taken leaps and bounds and got results and satisfaction (even with all of the bulls*** I have to deal with daily.)
All through these years, we let everything slip away--including our friends and close contact with our families. We did nothing. My only contact with real people was really only at work, and in the position I am in at work, I really can't talk to anyone. (So, after years of learning how to unstuff, what do I have to do?!?!? Stuff again! But I know the difference now.)

Now, this is where I have two separate issues going on--and I HAVE to keep them separate, but they are running parallel. (Which, if you look past the stereotypical emotional affair, this really is not--I was not searching for anything--just going through the motions--it hit me, I didn't seek it.) Even before I explain the situation below, I feel like I need to explain my feelings about my marriage were already coming to fruition and being expressed--this, just is literally driving me more crazy.
I am very gregarious and befriended a woman at work, who I could just relax with for five minutes (on our cigarette breaks) and "let loose" on each other, knowing through time we had each others trust. We really didn't even like each other when we first met years ago! Low and behold, we became close. It was gradual, unplanned, unexpected, and unintentional--and very untimely (if that's a word.) But I can't ignore it either--it happened and it's there. This OW as everyone refers to is also not your stereotypical "other woman." Once we realized where our friendship could've been going and perceived, we needed to put the brakes on. As SHE stated, she doesn't want to be known as a "homewrecker" and knows that I need to resolve my marriage. (There hasn't been (and will not be, with the length of our discussions and understanding of each other) any physical affair. It's not right, we made vows to other people, disrespectful, etc. etc.)
So, with this going on in my life at the same time, my wife now is expressing everything she hasn't done for years. Why now? After I expressed the fact I'm "giving up?" After just coexisting for so long? After maybe even falling out of love with her over these years? We have an open line of communication again (or maybe for the first time. I don't know.) And she's expressed she says I am her soul mate. She feels hope. I've expressed I don't feel hope. I've expressed that I *will* always love her, but I really don't know if I'm *in* love with her. (I know, so high-school-ish.) I've expressed, I don't know if the damage done (very quite extensive) is reparable, or even worth trying to fix. And I keep repeating the phrase/answer/question, "I don't know." I don't. And my question: I don't know if I want to. Is it worth that pain? Will it even work out? Is it going to be more wasted time for the same result--more pain? How does one know if they "want" to or not? It's a basic question--and yes, I know, only I can answer. I know we have to resolve our problems & differences--which may wind up in S or D. Which, is OK with me, I guess, *as long as she's OK and my children are not hurt.* And we are happy. I don't know if I can be happy with or without her.
And if I do get any advice, please don't tell me to change to the same shift as my wife; or don't have conatct with this other woman. Not only is it not feasible at this time, I refuse to give her up as my friend. She's not the enemy--she's not meddling--she wasn't the cause of my marital problems nor is she a contributing factor now. (I can just hear the seething and hisses.) I know what has to be worked on. (And, no, it's not like she's on the backburner.) How do I know if I want to or not? There's no guarntees with ANYTHING.

I'm really sorry for taking everybody's time--anybody who actually read the whole post. But I DO need help. Thanks for hearing me out and telling the "other side."

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

the question is...


why are YOU......... HERE...
on a marriage building site...

why HERE???

ain't no one here gonna LIE to ya...and tell you that having a female friend in your life with whom you are physically and emotionally attracted to and place in importance of priorities above your wife and family bodes anything good for your marriage...even though that's what you want to hear...

so why are you HERE>>>>>....

on a Marriage building site....

ARK

<small>[ July 13, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

ARK is right!

Let me break this down for you friend. You sound like a strong man and a strong man always prefers a sharp knife instead of a dull one right lol!

The Problem is the other WOMAN!

That's why you're here saying "I dont know, I dont know". This inappropriate relationship that you have developed is depleating your love for your wife. Plain and Simple. End your friendship with this other woman or leave your wife, plain and simple. The problem is once you leave your wife the chances are very VERY high that you and this other woman will not be together long. The odds are you will end up alone or with someone else. You are not soul mates because you can smoke cigarettes together and lament over your similarities.

Don't make excuses for yourself friend.
End the relationship now! Sorry that's it!
Don't cheapen the long faithful, endearing, compassionate relationship you've had with your wife by continuing this emotional affair and letting it escalate into a physical affair. Don't tarnish your upstanding, admirable, honorable status of being such a good friend to your wife.

Work on you marriage and quite bsing yourself.

You are only creating more problems by continuing this affair. You are slipping into the fog and it's time to turn back while you can still find your way.

Carpe Diem....

Oh boy, are you in deep! First of all, don't ignore the fact that you may very well be depressed and if so get some help with that. Get yourself into counseling to deal with the indecision. And don't kid yourself, you certainly DO have this OW on the back burner. Of course you didn't mean for this attraction to happen...most WS don't but the fact is that she is being allowed, by you, to replace the intimacy of shared feelings that should be your spouse's.

You wife and children will most certainly be hurt by divorce if it comes to that. Before you make up your mind to turn your back on the marriage, go into counseling and explore ALL the options you have.

Lose the OW, really fast, before you end up...accidentally in a full blown affair and all the destruction that brings with it!

Best of luck and keep posting...I don't post often but spend lots of time "lurking" and learning, there are some really special people that I am sure will have much insight to offer you.

liney,
I responded to you on your other thread but I wanted to add a few things here. I am in the same position as your wife. My H also has been having an EA and says the same things about it just happened, it wasn't planned, he was vulnerable. I can tell you the reason she is pouring on the things that you need now is that she probably didn't realize that things had gotten that bad. I know now that my H had tried on numerous occasions to tell me that he wasn't getting what he needed and that there were problems but it all went over my head. I only heard the good things like "Your so good to me", "Your such a good wife". I always thought the problems he tried to bring up were caused by something else such as stress from his training schedule and diet. Now I know, and now I want to try and give him the things he needs and to work on our relationship but he is unwilling to let me. He too has decided that he does not want to end his "friendship" with the OW which he sees at work and he too thinks that nothing but hurt will come from losing his friend and trying to work on our relationship. When I first confronted him about NC with OW he told me that I was taking away his only happiness. I know you don't want to hear it, but if you really care about saving your marriage and regaining the love you had with your W you have to end all contact with the OW. It may not be her fault, but having her around means that you'll always have that temptation and you won't be able to open up to the possibilities that could change your marriage.

Thank you for your responses, all. Yeah you too ark--always one in a crowd--wouldn't be here if I didn't need help. Are your 1900 other posts that supportive?
There are two reasons why I posted this: one, for people maybe to see where "the other side" is coming from and obtain more knowledge to understand a little better and a better judgement for themselves (maybe *you* should reevaluate things, huh ark? Geez! I thought *I* was dealing with alot of anger and resentment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ,) and two to get some sound advice. I've read so much over the last week and you all have a great support thing going. The least I could do was observe and get something out of it.

I may have not explained the OW too well, nor my situation. The OW was well after the fact of me feeling desparate, alone--well after my LB was depleted. Please please--I don't mean to be judgemental FM, but I've read alot of your posts and you are in pain-alot of it. (I *do* understand that much!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) I know my post was lengthy and I appreciate the time you took to read it, but the problem is not the OW--the problems were already there. And after I felt I could neither give anything more, nor get anything in the marriage. Even *if* my marriage were to end tommorrow, my respect and feelings for this OW would remain the same--as she would still married.

That's why this is not easy for me (or any of us.) Marriage is sacred. It's a life decision But when do you "uncle?"

I also have a general question/statement--not sure of which one it is yet: life and who we were, are, and become are all because of decisions we make. As the saying goes, "S*** happens." But there's a disclaimer. Do we walk through it? Do we play in it? Do we skip over it? Do we clean it up? Somethings just happen. But it's what we do with it which makes us--us. Free will. OK, now I'm way out there, but the point I'm making is, it wasn't my choice for my wife to have a nervous breakdown or me to be a gambler or this "OW", or even me to fall in love with my wife. It happened. It was a choice to get married. It was a choice to stand by her when she didnt even have herself. ETC. My question, what do I do with it now?

CMZ, I think you're right--when speaking to my wife last week, I denied the fact (and got very defensive) about being in denial (over the depression.) I would think that's a sign, huh? (lol) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (Hey, I still got a sense of humor every so often.) I was seeing a "regular" counselour about four years ago, then switched to a counselor who dealt with gambling. I think you're right--it's time to go back to a "regular" counselor.
GBM--I'm sorry I have played over the pain you went through. And thanks for your input. At this point, any advice/friend helps. Thanks for all of you in taking the time to read it.

I also left something else out: I am taking off of work Friday night to go out on a "date" with my wife. It's a start.

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Liney,

Welcome to MB. You have a lot of work to do. 1st with yourself.

Glad to see you know you need to make some changes. Yet I also see a stubborn man. You insist it is not about the OW and that it was bad B4 her. You may be right but the OW piece has not escalated it. You may have been walking the line before but you have already stepped over to ....... the other side. If not physically, emotionally and mentally.

Now what to do?

1. Get with a good MC familar with MB principles or better yet you do some 1 on 1 w/ Steve Harley and bring you W in later.

2. Read the books: His Needs/Her Needs and Giver/Taker.

3. Read the concepts section above and take the EN questionnaire. Both you and your W.

All of the above are beneficial even for those who 'think' they are ok.

So get crackin' and keep posting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> Please please--I don't mean to be judgemental FM, but I've read alot of your posts and you are in pain-alot of it. (I *do* understand that much!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I am. Do you really want to put your W thru that type of pain. At least try counseling if you feel your wife isn't understanding your needs. I still think any contact with this woman who is fulfilling some of these needs only detracts from your M and limits your chances of healing your M.

Be upfront and honest with your W about how close you are to leaving. At least give her one more opportunity to work towards healing your M and meeting your needs, and remember it's a 2 way street.

I'm in alot of pain because my W never gave me that chance and guess what...She's not with the OM, she's here with me, depressed, detached and emotionally screwed up. See what an EA gets you?
EA's more often than not only complicate the situation.

I hope you folks enjoy your date and I hope you take my comments as they are intended;
from the heart and meaningful.

Take Care

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You talk like one Wayward spouse!!!...read this...you are not the first one here who has written that long story which you have wrote... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

i hope you will find the help you needed.

I enjoyed reading your long post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your insightfulness Orchid. (And everyone else!) But why in the world would you think that I am stubborn?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I *know* I need help and speak with a psychiatrist, et al, but I also didn't mention, last time I did that, when confronted as to "Why" by my wife my response (which would be the same response I have now) was "I have a lot of things that I have to figure out and work through." Granted that was four years ago, but I think I'll get the same response--disdain, "why", etc. (Ironic coming from the woman who I HAD to do all of the legwork to get her into therapy of the NB.) (Along with stubbornness, believe it or not I used to be very optimistic and a "hopeless romantic." (OK--you can all get up from falling off your chairs now!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And FM, I'm surprised you haven't said the same! Seriously, it's one trait of mine that I have used in my favor the last few years and turned it around (i.e. gambling). That's why I am having difficulty in the concept of NC--not only because it's impossible, but also--as screwed up as I am--I *know* nothing can be become of any relationship (as well as she) other than our friendship. I do understand the transferrance of feelings has to be at least attempted. But that's whether or not the OW is there.
This is another dillema I have. (And I think I know the answer, but...) My wife is *very* intuitive (besides the regular "woman's intutition.") She knows I have this friendship with the OW--I've told her. To what extent? I'm not sure. I know I have to be honest with her and I know ommission of the truth is a lie in itself. But, it's more complicated than a "yes or no" answer. How far do I go with telling her my feelings (about the OW?)
Another "problem" is that we all work at the same place. I do NOT want repercussions (which I don't "think" will happen) as we are all making careers for ourselves here. And the place is a rumor bin in and of itself. How much do I tell my wife? (Please don't forget--as large of a "company" I work for in my building (about 5,000), the three of us have five relatives working there and between us, we are probably known or know everyone. Any advice/suggestions will surely help!

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

and two to get some sound advice. I've read so much over the last week and you all have a great support thing going. The least I could do was observe and get something out of it.

LINY...

My question was totally non defensive and non judgemental..
it was 100000000000000000000% sincere...

for you to reflect as to why YOU would bring this issue to a marraige building site....

I had no idea what type of advice you were seeking from your first none...

I know what you want to hear..

to continue contact with the OP no matter what..
I heard that....

I heard you wanted to keep the OP in your life...but I didn't here what you want to do fix YOUR marriage....

1900 plus posts eh...bet ya about fifty of them are asking that same question to a new poster...

why are you here at a marriage building site...

It's a good question....
it's a great question..

nothing defensive about it from me...

helps me and other posters help you reach your goal...

Lin...I have no anger and resentment..
about you or your issue...
I really am interested in what goals YOU have for you and YOUR marriage...
thus the question....

liny...
we make things in life much more difficutlt than we are...human nature I suppose...

Our marriages an not entinties that exist somewhere outside of our lives and being...
our marriages are exactly what we create them to be....

you description of crisis in marriages ...yours and hers are exactly the type things that happen to people every day....and so often the outcome of such thing is two people that somewhere along the line quit working on the marriage....and it's creation....

love is like that as well..love is not a verb or even a feeling in and of itself ..
but love is pretty much defined by it's loving actions ...

and as much as you want to believe that you and the OP..just fell in love as if some cosmic force...
the truth is that the atmosphere of closeness you two have now was created by yours and her actions...

your story even more so proves this since you state at first you couldn't stand eachother..so somewhere along the lonely ...slowly slowly slowly...you two started expending time, energy, and thought on one another....started the whole process of looking forward to seeing eachother at work started thinking about one another when not at work...started holding on to things to share and dicscuss with eachother...

though when in it...it does appear to just happen the reality is that you and she created it...
the flip side is that all this time, energy, thought, and emotion....are all then stolen from your wife and marriage....
it kind of self feeds on itself...becuase it makes the gaps of emotion, and communication that feels distant with the spouse even more distant....

It helps justify the feeling of seperateness and brings the OP and you closer....yet you can't see your own acts in creating and perpetuating the distance between you and your wife..

Marriage is sacred.
if you say this and if you believe it..then you must treat it as thus...and you haven't been doing that...even regardless of the past...you are choosing NOT to treat it sacredly at all...

What you are doing....with the OP..is at a cost of great disrepect to the core of her being to your wife....

It is wrong no matter the feel good high and emotions you get from your OP.....

None of this affair stuff just happened len..
it was orchestrated from each moment you chose/choose to spend on creating it...

that doesnt' mean you don't feel for the OP
that doesn't mean she doesn't fee for you..

but you two are not cosmic victim to these feelings...this is what you two have built and created...

so lin...tell me..
why are YOU at a marriage building site..
still waiting for that anwer.....

ps if you pull a muscle in your back and go to a doc...and he asks you why are here today...and where does it hurt...do you get as mad at the doctor as you got at me...???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

double post...
do have a question though... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ark

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:

<strong>I may have not explained the OW too well, nor my situation. The OW was well after the fact of me feeling desparate, alone--well after my LB was depleted. Please please--I don't mean to be judgemental FM, but I've read alot of your posts and you are in pain-alot of it. (I *do* understand that much!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) I know my post was lengthy and I appreciate the time you took to read it, but the problem is not the OW--the problems were already there. And after I felt I could neither give anything more, nor get anything in the marriage. Even *if* my marriage were to end tommorrow, my respect and feelings for this OW would remain the same--as she would still married.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wanted to know the other side of the situation. Yes there is pain, and the pain only gets worse if the OW is still in the picture. Every WS believes that they can keep things under control. They don't want to go through withdrawal. As for your feelings before the OW, you are probably right. I'm hearing the same thing from my H. The thing is, if you really want to work on your relationship you have to open up and give your W a chance to fill those needs again and as long as the OW is still around that can not happen and you will continue to seek solace in her when times get rough with W and that does nothing but harm your M. As for telling your wife, tell her everything. It's going to hurt but you have to be completely open and honest with her about everything in order to keep your EA from escalating or happening again.

Ark: *That* was an answer--thank you. (Sincerely.) Not necessarily what I wanted to hear, but nonetheless, an answer I can use.

"your story even more so proves this since you state at first you couldn't stand eachother..so somewhere along the lonely ...slowly slowly slowly...you two started expending time, energy, and thought on one another....started the whole process of looking forward to seeing eachother at work started thinking about one another when not at work...started holding on to things to share and dicscuss with eachother..."
Tell me you thoughts on this theory...it's just a thought:
You are absolutely right. Love is a process that doesn't "just" happen, especially how eloquently you put it. The OW and I have set the limit on our LB. In my idea of a marriage and what it should be, it's limitless. Why, then, if this is completely understood between the OW and myself (that nothing will come of this further than our friendship and our marriages separately need the attention) would I end that friendship, especially since nowadays in my life they are very difficult to come by? All relationships change--using your word, and not by some "cosmic" intervention. Free will. The OW and I have set the limit on our LB. It's maxed, and we've decided it's time to withdraw and possibly open a new account with our spouses. There is an "and" to this. AND if my wife understands this. I used the word transferrance (to the OW.) Same theory, different words. Putting back into the marriages LB.

My goals? At this point, to get through the day. Sucks, but last year is was just getting through the minute. (That's when I say, there's more to marriage and life, for that matter, than co-existing, which, until recently when a lightbulb when off in my wife's head, is all we have been doing.)

"the flip side is that all this time, energy, thought, and emotion....are all then stolen from your wife and marriage...."
Somehow--maybe it's me--I don't think I'm getting my situation across: NOTHING WAS STOLEN FROM MY MARRIAGE. IT WAS GONE ALREADY! I can't even say in hibernation. The life of me was sucked out (and through one of those coffee straws--slow and painful!) When I think of this
aspect of my marriage, that's where my question of "Do I really want to possibly subject myself to this again (and her)?" My original question. Do I "want"? And I know, right now it's not a matter of "Do I want?", it's a statement: "I have to."

"Marriage is sacred.
if you say this and if you believe it..then you must treat it as thus...and you haven't been doing that...even regardless of the past...you are choosing NOT to treat it sacredly at all..."
Tough one to swallow. You're right, except for the tense of "choose." (Ironically, you basically gave the same analogy in the next part of your response! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) I did--I was the only spouse and parent for the longest time and made this very clear, with no response (until the last two months or so.) My question of "When do you say "uncle" comes from this. Now? Like i said previous, not a question of "want"--"have" to.

"ps if you pull a muscle in your back and go to a doc...and he asks you why are here today...and where does it hurt...do you get as mad at the doctor as you got at me...????"
I don't go to the doctor--so you caught me off guard! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"so lin...tell me..
why are YOU at a marriage building site..
still waiting for that anwer....."
Hopefully I answered that above: for direction, because I know I have to try and resolve, for advice, to know there are other people in similar situations, to offer other perspectives, to make sure both my wife and I come out of this with our heads up (regardless of the outcome), maybe even to help someone.


GBM: "You wanted to know the other side of the situation. Yes there is pain, and the pain only gets worse if the OW is still in the picture. Every WS believes that they can keep things under control. They don't want to go through withdrawal."
When I talk about making myself crazy and "that's my problem", I've been through the pain already of withdrawing from the OW--its a friendship i cherish. It hurts bad because of its a friendship that has to change. *AND*, again, the OW and I *KNOW* it can't be.

I know *all* of you think I can't do this--keeping the perverbial, stereotypical other woman as a friend. Me, the OW, my wife, my marriage don't fit the stereotypes though. And I have yet to approach my wife, so I may change that previous statement. I'll let you know.

Thanks again for hearing me out and your responses. You too ark! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 16, 2004, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

liny...

no one is villifying the OW...
people here realize that there is usually ground work layed in the marriage that lead to unmet needs that factor into an affair..

and make no mistake you are in a affair..
be it physical or emotional...it is damaging to the basis of marital vows...

My goals? At this point, to get through the day

that's a crappy goal...change it..only you can..

Lin I agree that it is futile to powerstuggle the ability to keep the OP somewhere in your life..when at this point you haven't chosen marriage yet...

you need to choose regardless of your wife's actions or inactions
regardless of anything..

you need to choose..
either in it 100000000% or not..
and then work from there....

all this other stuff will then have meaning...

All relationships change--

they change as a direct result of our own energy and input...

ark......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: ....But why in the world would you think that I am stubborn?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Because you are and admitted it below. Keep reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: I *know* I need help and speak with a psychiatrist, et al, but I also didn't mention, last time I did that, when confronted as to "Why" by my wife my response (which would be the same response I have now) was "I have a lot of things that I have to figure out and work through." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: U need a good MC. Steve H is good and does phone counseling. Yea, you babbled an excuse to your W. We can ALL say what you said with some degree of honesty. So you get no points for that comment.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: (Along with stubbornness, believe it or not I used to be very optimistic and a "hopeless romantic." (OK--you can all get up from falling off your chairs now!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And FM, I'm surprised you haven't said the same! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Hopeless romantic. Well that c/b a good trait as long as you don't do anything crazy. Cute is ok but no crazy (stalking your W I mean). No romantic stuff or talk with the OP or anyone (female or male) other than your W, ya hear? Oh yea, I said 'male' just to make the OP not look as appealing. Now you will have a mental pix of a guy when we say OP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL!!!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: Seriously, it's one trait of mine that I have used in my favor the last few years and turned it around (i.e. gambling).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Use it in favor of your W and M no one else. Don't be a charmer. Lots of women like a charming guy. Crossing that boundary put you in hot water.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: That's why I am having difficulty in the concept of NC--not only because it's impossible, but also--as screwed up as I am--I *know* nothing can be become of any relationship (as well as she) other than our friendship. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: NC the OP? Why? Since you admit to being 'screwed up' (which you rightly are at this time - so you get a point for that recognition - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), you can't even afford the friendship.

A guy I had an EA with many many years ago. I was single and he was kinda separated..... yea, until his W called several girls at work (he was a charmer also), I told him to take a hike and if he ever saw me to cross the street and walk on the other side. Well lo' and behold, over 15 years later we did see each other at Costco. We past and never said a word. I knew his head was spinning but I just kept looking at my baby (I was married by then) and kept saying: "I love my baby and love my H" over and over again. See? No friendship. My heart strings were tugging even after all those years but my current choices, kept me from falling. Much later, I told my H about it and he was understanding about it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: I do understand the transferrance of feelings has to be at least attempted. But that's whether or not the OW is there.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: More babble. You need to work on your M. Nothing else. NO more friendships even if she has a terminal illness. She can get her support elsewhere. U get this? Her friendship is like a cancer to you. If you are her friend, you'd stay away from her. You can't see your family clearly if you don't.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: This is another dillema I have. (And I think I know the answer, but...) My wife is *very* intuitive (besides the regular "woman's intutition.") She knows I have this friendship with the OW--I've told her. To what extent? I'm not sure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Your W may know more than she is willing to admit. Until you take her into your confidence you won't know for sure. Work with a good MC or Steve to get you to that state.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: I know I have to be honest with her and I know ommission of the truth is a lie in itself. But, it's more complicated than a "yes or no" answer. How far do I go with telling her my feelings (about the OW?) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Work with the MC or Steve 1st. They will help you get to that point. YOu need to sync up your mind and heart so you can tackle this obstacle you have mentally enlarged in your brain.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: (Please don't forget--as large of a "company" I work for in my building (about 5,000), the three of us have five relatives working there and between us, we are probably known or know everyone. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Rumors exist in playgrounds...... large corps have it also.... just do what you need. Even if a rumor starts, let it. If there is no more truth to it, it will die. Watch your mannerisms. Find mannerisms to help you combat those flighty feelings that make you look like a geeky schoolboy with twitterpaited eyes. Work out at a guy's gym at lunch. Go out to lunch with the boys. Take your W to lunch. Do volunteer work. Walk an old lady across the street.....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>LINY: (Scary!) I do NOT want repercussions (which I don't "think" will happen) as we are all making careers for ourselves here. And the place is a rumor bin in and of itself. How much do I tell my wife? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Well you get clean and stay clean and whatever happens will happen. The repercussions are not always within your control.

Tell your W the truth. Truth is not how much. It is either truth or partial truth. If you were her, how much would you want to know?

Hope this helps. I like your moxie, hope you stick with us for a while. I think we can help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

take care,
L.

double post.

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

YIKES 3rd duplicate post. Not my fault..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 14, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Well, as an update for anyone interested, W found an email that I sent to OW--basically said that it (me, my marriage, my friendship) hurts; it (withdrawing) has got to be done; I need to give my marriage another try; that OW and OW H really need to work on the respect issue (wasn't that a kick in the [censored] for my wife); and ended with "I love you".
God has his own timing--perfect example! (I had asked previously when I should bring up this friendship and discuss it with the wife. Got my answer yesterday, when W read it. Spoke on the phone for over an hour then left from work early and fought, cried, had a ping pong match all night. But we communicated. A lot--*ALOT*--came out. Slept for a little bit, then continued today. (Well, Thursday morning/afternoon.)
It's funny ark--my W could have written all of your responses for the most part. I underestimated you--I underestimated my wife--and as I apologized to her for these years of pain I have caused, I apologize to you for my ignorance. The same holds true to you orchid--thank you.
We connected for the first time in a long time--together--on the same page. Amazing what communication/talking can do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> We are keeping our date for tommorrow. Dinner and a night in a hotel room. Want nothing more than to connect and talk again to my long lost friend! (Yes, I said "want"!!!) No kids--Just us! A lot has happened in the past week. Don't want a meltdown, but we are certainly starting over again right. Don't know if anybody else will read this, but will give an update sometime over the weekend. Thanks to all of you. Long road ahead--more pain--therapy--but, wife is worth it. And something as simple as telling her so meant the world. (And, PS-- spoke with friend briefly and she said would have done the same damn thing to me! Is happy and proud I finally came to this decision. And, NO I am NOT advocating any situation with the OW and staying in touch. However, as I stated previously. we are not the sterotypical players involved, in an unstereotypical setting.)
Thanks to all who have listened. I have a long road ahead and am sure I will be back--for support, not answers, though!

<small>[ July 18, 2004, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

Way to go Liny!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Communication is the key, this inspires me. You never know huh?
I hope you guys enjoy your time away.
You're a lucky man!