I told him yesterday that we could live in the same house & pay off some of our financial obligations and just try rebuilding a friendship and he agreed that he'd like to do that. The OW called him yesterday & ended it for good. I actually got to listen to the conversation. She was very upset with him for lying to her & me at the same time, because he was trying to figure out a way to keep both of us again. He told me he wanted to come home & he told her he wanted her. We both exposed all of the lies he told to us & he didn't deny any of it for a change. He said he was telling both of us what he thought we wanted to hear. I told him no he was telling us what he thought would keep both of us hanging on. She told him to never call her, text her, come to see her, no contact whatsoever because she's done with him. He didn't act like he did when it first blew up & he was so depressed, now he acts like an emotional void. No emotions, no expressions, no nothing; it's kind of like a hollow man. He told me he would like to stay there because he has nowhere to go and that he knows that I'm done with him for sure and says that he'd like to rebuild a real friendship with me because of the kids. But he also says that he knows at some point I'll start dating again & he doesn't want to be in the way. Dating again is the farthest thing from my mind right now. My question is does this mean that it's over? I waiver between what would I want with him to I want him, and I can't figure out what's right. My head says I'm a complete idiot & better off without this loser, but my heart is full of the years we've spent together and now I feel like I'm totally confused. Yesterday I hated and despised him & today I feel kind of empty, but sad like you do when someone dies. I don't know what is right, and I don't really know if he wants a chance with me anyway. He says he doesn't know anything and he's just going to work, work, work & help take care of the kids because that's all he has left. He has said a few days ago that he really doesn't see how we can work through this, and I can't get him to go to a marriage counselor, but he also told me that he was really attracted to me & he'll always love me. Has anyone else had it happen like this and it eventually worked out, or should I go with a no contact (between he & I) and just grieve and get it over with?

He's in withdrawal. All of his feelings are perfectly normal. It will take a little while for him to come out of it. You should continue Plan A in the meantime. You have been so deeply hurt by all of this, too. That is why you are wavering as well. Time will make it better.

Hopefully some vets will take this furthur for you, LIE.

Thank you. You know he left it for so long that it was between her & me and now he says he doesn't know what he wants & that he has a lot to think about. I think he's too scared to move out of the house permanently, but I'm too drained to keep putting up with his crap. I don't really know what he wants from me. My 2 sisters say that even if he stays there or if I kick him out, at some point he's going to want his family back completely, but I don't know, I've never seen him like this before. He's so dry and uncaring and deep down, I feel like it's really over and he's just too wishy washy to leave and wind up with nothing. I really don't know what to think. Today is a bad day.

LIE
I am sorry you are feeling down. I've snuck over to the recovery board a few times, and I think that would be a good place to go right now. You are day 1 of recovery, and there are some real supportive folks over there that will help you. Now, scoot on over and check it out, ok?

Patience is the key in this...

I would not let him dictate the conditions for him moving back home. I would insist on counseling, and a plan to rebuild the marriage, unless you just want a roommate.

Believer - That's almost how we left it. Here's a little insight & I'll make it as short as I can: She was my bf & hung around us all the time and they started having an affair about 6-8 months ago. I knew it & finally got the proof Friday b-4 Memorial day. We said we'd work it out (3 weeks), then he moved out (1 week), then we agreed to live separate but together & take care of financial obligations & kids and he could see her when he wanted & I could do what I wanted (1 week), then he came home & told me he wanted to work things out & that he wanted to be home with me & said all the "perfect" things (1 week), then on monday (this week) they were seen in town talking in a parking lot & he lied to my face about it - i knew he was lying - i called her & we talked about all the crap he was telling her & all the crap he was telling me. She was done with him anyway she said and then she told him that last night under no uncertain terms. He told me he has no hope of her & him - that's all done - he said she's done with me no matter what & he seems empty and he doesn't know what direction he wants to take in his life. I pretty much told him that I was done with him yesterday when I confronted him with all the lies he told about me & him and about me in general. So, I guess he thinks that I'm done with him anyway and when I broached the subject with him last night about he & I trying to be friends again first and then maybe seeing where we're at, he just said "I don't know, I don't really know what I want anymore and I don't want to talk about that right now." I left the subject alone. I didn't really have a choice. We talked this morning about what she & I said to each other and he asked me how I felt. I told him kind of empty but sad and that I care about him & I always will and that I'll always love him because he's the father of my children and we've shared so much, but I know that right now we both need some time to heal and to become friends again, in an honest way, like we used to be; also said that I can live like this for a while because I'm not interested in dating & putting myself back on the market for a long time; he texted me & said that he has a lot to think about right now & he agreed to some of what I was saying, but wouldn't say what part, so I dropped it. I don't really see the point in picking an argument. The problem is do I leave well enough alone, or do I try to reason with him & say that we have too much to lose, maybe we should consider staying together and trying for real this time, or do I just let it ride and let him get over some of the grief he's going to go through and just try to live day to day & see how our friendship is progressing? I've always had a plan for everything, and all of the stuff I read here about people doing, it makes sense, but it doesn't necessairily mean that it works for every situation. Like the no contact letter; he's not going to write that - in his mind there's no reason, because there's no us right now & it's done with in his mind because she's done with him completely (he has a defeatest personality & if she'd have told him this a month ago, he would have moped & cried and would have been too scared to call her). He did, however just call & ask me to meet him for lunch and I told him I'd go. How should I broach the subject of he & I working on us for a while, or should I let it die down for a while and just try to work through some of the hurt & humility first?

Go to lunch and hear him out. Don't make a plan. Let him know you will get back to him. Keeping him in limbo is better for you and helps him wonder what you are up to. That's a good thing.

He may try to pressure you into making a decision for him or he may aggravate you to make a plan.

Stand your ground and say you need time to think. This is where you can start babbling back some of those crazy lines the WS used to give. Remember your family is valuable. He needs to show his value to the family, esp you. He needs to make you feel safe.

No ILY's. Did you read my thread?

L.

Orchid - yes I did read your thread. You're right. I went to lunch with him & he didn't really have much to say, just wanted to eat with me. He asked me how I feel today & I just told him I'm not 100% sure, I go from one feeling to the next. I asked him how he felt and he said that he's pretty empty, but he doesn't know what he's feeling really. I asked him what he felt about me when he looked at me and he said that he saw a sweet loving woman and a really good friend that he never wants to lose and that's pretty much it. I guess that he doesn't really see me as anything but a friend at this point, so what is there to save? How do you make them see you as anything but a friend and mother at that point? Is he really that confused or uncertain because she dumped him yesterday for good? He doesn't act like he has any intention of moving out of our home because we agreed to be friends and take care of the kids together and take care of several financial obligations, but I don't know if I can live like that for long. What would it take to make him see me as something he wants again? Would I have to do Plan B? He says that the only thing he feels when he looks at me is shame and hurt and what he's done to me. He said that he'd like to go to sleep & either never wake up, or wake up 5 years ago when things were good between us & he had never loved her. What does that mean for me? He says that he's lost everything anyway in his mind & that I don't deserve the crap he's done and that I deserve better than him so he's going to sit back & watch me resume my life and at some point start dating someone else because that's what i deserve is to be happy and he doesn't think he's the right person for that. I told him if he was looking for a way to tell me he's not interested in us ever working things out to just be forthright about it and let the chips fall where they may. He said that he doesn't really see how we could ever work things out because of him, not because of me. He says he can't look at me and face what he's done all the time. I think it's partly because he always dodges having to work at anything. He likes the easy way out. I asked him if he would like for me to go ahead & file for a divorce - not threatening, just asked the general question - he came up with the excuse that I shouldn't based on our health insurances & life insurances because of the kids and that was the excuse he used. I didn't know whether to laugh or to feel offended that he didn't have anything to say about it having anything to do with me & him. I mean to me, that was a pretty lame excuse for not divorcing right now, but I agreed that we'd wait. He said that he'd never say that there's no chance of us working through this, but he's not willing to go to a MC with me and he's not willing to finish reading the stuff from this web-site now & he said he wasn't going to finish out that EN questionaire, so I don't really have any tools left, outside of myself, to try working through things with him. He says he loves me and cares about me, but he's too raw and he's just not into the idea of me and him being anything but friends right now. I guess that I just have to try being "just friends" with someone that I've shared everything with for the last 11 years. How am I supposed to do that? I almost feel like I'd rather be in Plan B than living with him without there being any emotional or physical relationship. Part of me says that he'd come running home after a few weeks of that & the other part of me says that he might like being gone, or he might stay gone just because he's got too much pride, so I really don't know what to do. If I let it ride like it is, I'm inviting more heartache & trouble in the end, but if I end it right now, I'm going to be an emotional wreck and I've got to tear my kids up again knowing that there's the possibility that he'll probably want to come home at some point. He may never want to work things out with me and he may leave at some point & never come back, but knowing him the way that I do, I think that he will probably, at some point, want to be back home. Am I crazy? Do most of them want to come home at some point? Are there any good men left? What should I expect from his withdrawals from her? Will this cloud his judgement about how he feels about me, or does this mean that he really just wants to be friends with me & he's done with me?

Orchid - yes I did read your thread. You're right. I went to lunch with him & he didn't really have much to say, just wanted to eat with me. He asked me how I feel today & I just told him I'm not 100% sure, I go from one feeling to the next. I asked him how he felt and he said that he's pretty empty, but he doesn't know what he's feeling really. I asked him what he felt about me when he looked at me and he said that he saw a sweet loving woman and a really good friend that he never wants to lose and that's pretty much it. I guess that he doesn't really see me as anything but a friend at this point, so what is there to save? How do you make them see you as anything but a friend and mother at that point? Is he really that confused or uncertain because she dumped him yesterday for good? He doesn't act like he has any intention of moving out of our home because we agreed to be friends and take care of the kids together and take care of several financial obligations, but I don't know if I can live like that for long. What would it take to make him see me as something he wants again? Would I have to do Plan B? He says that the only thing he feels when he looks at me is shame and hurt and what he's done to me. He said that he'd like to go to sleep & either never wake up, or wake up 5 years ago when things were good between us & he had never loved her. What does that mean for me? He says that he's lost everything anyway in his mind & that I don't deserve the crap he's done and that I deserve better than him so he's going to sit back & watch me resume my life and at some point start dating someone else because that's what i deserve is to be happy and he doesn't think he's the right person for that. I told him if he was looking for a way to tell me he's not interested in us ever working things out to just be forthright about it and let the chips fall where they may. He said that he doesn't really see how we could ever work things out because of him, not because of me. He says he can't look at me and face what he's done all the time. I think it's partly because he always dodges having to work at anything. He likes the easy way out. I asked him if he would like for me to go ahead & file for a divorce - not threatening, just asked the general question - he came up with the excuse that I shouldn't based on our health insurances & life insurances because of the kids and that was the excuse he used. I didn't know whether to laugh or to feel offended that he didn't have anything to say about it having anything to do with me & him. I mean to me, that was a pretty lame excuse for not divorcing right now, but I agreed that we'd wait. He said that he'd never say that there's no chance of us working through this, but he's not willing to go to a MC with me and he's not willing to finish reading the stuff from this web-site now & he said he wasn't going to finish out that EN questionaire, so I don't really have any tools left, outside of myself, to try working through things with him. He says he loves me and cares about me, but he's too raw and he's just not into the idea of me and him being anything but friends right now. I guess that I just have to try being "just friends" with someone that I've shared everything with for the last 11 years. How am I supposed to do that? I almost feel like I'd rather be in Plan B than living with him without there being any emotional or physical relationship. Part of me says that he'd come running home after a few weeks of that & the other part of me says that he might like being gone, or he might stay gone just because he's got too much pride, so I really don't know what to do. If I let it ride like it is, I'm inviting more heartache & trouble in the end, but if I end it right now, I'm going to be an emotional wreck and I've got to tear my kids up again knowing that there's the possibility that he'll probably want to come home at some point. He may never want to work things out with me and he may leave at some point & never come back, but knowing him the way that I do, I think that he will probably, at some point, want to be back home. Am I crazy? Do most of them want to come home at some point? Are there any good men left? What should I expect from his withdrawals from her? Will this cloud his judgement about how he feels about me, or does this mean that he really just wants to be friends with me & he's done with me?

Hi LIE

Wondering how you are doing? Are you hanging in there?

Withdrawal sucks. Keep doing Plan A. His actions speak louder than words. HE IS STILL AT HOME WITH YOU. Be thankful for that and do not expect much more right now.

Dear Lost,

You are churing with his emotions right now and want desparately to 'fix it' for him. You can't. The A is still raging in his mind and the best of suggestions to fix it are not being assimilated at all. In fact they are being held in and then spti back out. Like when a chidl does not like taking their medicine. When that happens, what does a parent do? U keep trying.

Right now your trying is to let him go grieve for his shameful conduct. Since she broke it off with him. He may pine for his loss of her and slow down his recovery. You may need to let him do this away from the family. Let him know you love him but since his actions are currently hurtful, he may be better off emotionally recovering on his own. Most WS don't want to here that because just as he says 'the told you both what you wanted to hear, he really didn't tell you both the truth because it was safer for him', in some warped A sense of the fog world.

You need to step out of hte fog and take care of your family. Time to take a stand and let him heal. For me the best help was to let my WS go which meant I had to do less, waaay less. He even lived in the streets in his truck for a combination of several weeks over the course of his 3 year A. This was in addition ot his 5 month move out of the house and living in a rented room, then about a week stay with the OW.

The point is can you handle it?

After all that, the OW claiming prego #3, her filing RO charges, sending me e-mails and calling my work, he was finally able to end it himself. He was more angry about his conduct than hers. Eventually his heart joined his mind and we are now in recovery.

For my safety sake. I carry plan B in my back pocket and thai is part of our agreement. This M now has put more power on my side since I am not the one who strayed. I use that power sparingly and wisely. There is more respect for each of us to the other now. There is more care and getting better at it daily.

The road to recovery is hard. This is now the time to sparingly use the ILY's. Not too much. If the OW is not telling him so, he will want to hear it from aonther source. If he says why do you say that..... tell him ' I don't know', It will make him wonder about you and maybe put some fight back into him.

Remember he has been out there for a long time. His healing will take longer.

L.