My story has been posted everywhere and while I don't feel my story is special, that doesn't help me any...I've got several of Dr Harley's books (SAA, HNHN, LB) but the only one I've read to any depth at this point is SAA.

WW is moving out this week. She claims she cannot think and took a 6 month lease in an apartment. I'm sure there is more going on between her and OM then she is "being honest" with me about, but that shouldn't be too much of a surprise. She got a new cell phone so she could call him for free, hasn't told me the number, she has her own finances separate (she just recently got a new job after being unemployed and miserably depressed for 9 months).

After trying to help her get her feet on the ground financially for the last month while she has been running around on me I finally had to take away all access to my financials from her last night. She was pissed...kept saying it was OUR money and stuff...she's upset because she asked me to leave and I wouldn't because a) she couldn't pay for the house on her own b)I wasn't having an affair and didn't feel like I should be the one to leave c)I refuse to have this stupid kid at my house and the minute I leave I know he's going to be there.

She hasn't even started packing yet, but has gone out and purchased a new Queen sized bed...when I asked her why she needed a new (and big) bed she started babbling about stuff...I dropped it...

I'm trying to be as loving as possible thru this, but my tognue sometimes gets the best of me and I will say things that are hurtful and disprespectful, even if true...mostly about OM and their relationship.

We talked again last night because I was afraid after the finances she was going to go off and just file for divorce she was so pissed. I asked her not to make any rash decisions to just go out and do her thing if that's what she feels she needs to do. Basically she told me last night that she feels like she has "lost her identity" and I have abused her emotionally and mentally. I know I have not been innocent in any of this and am on my own pursuit for change and happiness, but I also know her depression has totally warped her perception and she cannot find anyway to build self-esteem on her own...she specifically told me that she knows what she is doing is wrong, but the OM "makes her feel good". Which is her typical MO in life...she just has never encountered someone who won't give up on her...she's my wife and I won't abandon my marriage. She told me her IC told her she exhibited the signs of "battered wife syndrome" and that really hurt me. Like I said, I know I've done some things wrong, but I have honestly tried to help her, but it just wasn't the correct way and often times was actually quite counterproductive due to her depression...

Anyway...here's what I'm having trouble with...how do I let her go? Do I just keep my chin up, smile on my face, help her move (even the new bed she's going to share with OM) and say good luck, I love you? Do I stop all talk of the R? I still talk about it and I wonder if it's just stupid to mention it. I tell her I'm not going to sit around and be miserable, but I will most certainly miss her. She's taking some big pieces of furniture and it's going to make the house empty and I told her it didn't matter...without her the house was going to be empty even if it was full of furniture?

I'm having a difficult time figuring out what to say right now. I know I need to keep the fights down about OM so she doesn't leave with a horrible taste in her mouth, but do I stop the R talks as well? Just let her go? I'm thinking about letting Plan A stand for a little while longer after she leaves, but not reaching out a great deal, maybe a letter or something (especially since she still hasn't told me her new phone number). She has said we will still see each other, but it will be on "her terms". I told her that wasn't completely acceptable, it will also be on my terms. I told her I was not going to "date" her while she was seeing other guys. I'm not going to demean myself by competing with wonderboy.

OK...I've wrote a novel...sorry about that...any advice would be greatly appreciated...my IC is pretty supportive, but I've got very few folks around here that really support what I'm doing...oddly enough her family is supporting me more than my family or my friends...

Thanks...

I hate to say this....but this sounds nothing like a Plan A. The first and most essential part of Plan A is stop love busters and you can't seem to do that on too many levels to count. If you want to impress your wife, my advice would be to enter an anger management class and find out why your wife feels emotionally "battered". I'm going to be perfectly honest with you. I have the LEAST success with marriages where the wife feels "controlled". Does your wife call you controlling?

hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

well there's always a multitude of options...and always the ability to change directions...

I think you are very wize to weed out what she is saying...
you not say too much ...

AND
avoid power struggling the silly stuff..
and the fog stuff...

doeasn't leave much to talk about huh?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

when I asked her why she needed a new (and big) bed she started babbling about stuff...I dropped it...

no more question/interest in stuff like that..

She's taking some big pieces of furniture and it's going to make the house empty and I told her it didn't matter...without her the house was going to be empty even if it was full of furniture?

AWESOME thing to say....awesome....

She has said we will still see each other, but it will be on "her terms". I told her that wasn't completely acceptable, it will also be on my terms. I told her I was not going to "date" her while she was seeing other guys. I'm not going to demean myself by competing with wonderboy.

don't power struggle those type of things...
babble back to those things more than committing or powerstruggling..

you are setting your self and she setting herself up to create bigger hurdles and obtacles to get over when she does leave and you two really do want to see eachother.......

tell her I look forward to the time when I get to see you...YOU...the missing you....

Orchid would say things to her WS...like..
If you see my husband while you are out there ..tell him I love and miss him... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

babble things back...

She has said we will still see each other, but it will be on "her terms".

babble back..."ofcourse ..there's no one else I want to see...."

seek out WAT and Melody on whether you actually help her move out..others have been through this and it is a mixed issue...

you can not make it any harder for her....but not necessarrily lift a finger...

may want to consider going "away" when she does it..but you are at risk for her taking things...

difficult to call...

if she does move out...and you can plan a for a week or so really really well...and then go to plan b...that may work well..
but the real marker of plan B...when YOU go to it..is when your love bank is down to the last tuppance...and you hold on to that for dear life...

but I've got very few folks around here that really support what I'm doing...oddly enough her family is supporting me more than my family or my friends

makes sense...your family and friends love you tranpled..they don't want you hurt anymore..
her family love her..and can see the value and honro of you trying to be there for her...

pray for grace and clarity...

ark

Yes...she feels like I've "taken over her life" and I can see that is true in some respects, but not because I wanted to or I really set out to, but she chose not to assert herself...well, until now...it's not that I've ever tried to control her, she just has had no real motivation in life and because she has chosen to just kind of go along with what I have done now she feels like I've controlled her all this time even though I have spent the last five years encouraging her and doing what I thought was right in helping her build her self-esteem...which as it turns out wasn't right...

Dear Trampled,

Sorry for the late response. Out in CA and haven't had my coffee yet!

In addition to ARK and Starfish's (who by the way are both great ladies) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , their comments are always helpful. I recommend the following:

1. Read my post & implement it at a safe pace for U Things a BS s/b doing

2. Get a note to her IC w/proof if possible to show the IC that she is not dealing with 'battered wife' syndrome. You are doing the IC a favor (not sure if the IC will initially perceive it that way) but it is important for the IC to see they are giving 'WRONG' support to your W and that could hinder her personal recovery. Like giving the wrong perscription and having an allergic reaction.

3. You get yourself to a good MC. Phone counseling with Jennifer C @ MB w/b good.

4. Make sure your W doesn't have access to the household line of credit, your 401K, etc. Even look into changing beneficiary info. Remember you can always change it back. For those in charge of these plans ask why, tell them. I did.

5. Get with a good lawyer and draw up a solid separation agreement with the view to D. I know this sounds hard but better to be prepared than not. Let your Lawyer know this is a perparation step.....they get paid anyway but better to be safe than sorry, if you can afford it.

6. Don't help her move. Let her figure out how she will do it.

7. Family stuff (wedding gifts, family purchases.....yes even the china), stay at home. She wants a toaster oven....let her go buy it.

8. In reality, you want her to spend her A $$ into debit. Run her broke. She is going to do it anyway so don't stop her. U just keep yourself safe.

9. Select a 3rd party in case you need it for plan B. Inform them of their role and then keep them on hold.

10. I asked all I informed to please respect my decisions. I told them that I realized, they may not always agree but since they also were not getting all the info, it was critical they respect my decisions. All did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

11. Define your personal boundaries.

12. Refrain from the ILY's for a while. Let her tell you that and make her wonder if you do. She has already run to the OM. If she asks you, tell her you did and not sure if you do since she is now acting quite strange.

13. Learn to reverse babble. Pratice in the mirror. If you want to tell her you love her, tell her via a 3rd party or as I did, I talked to the wall while my H was in bed...... I cried and spilled my heart out. He couldn't answer me because I wasn't talking to him. It was kinda weird but eventually...... the wall (ws) talked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

14. Keep a journal of her actions. Your lawyer and your MC will need it. Keep the proof in a safe place.

15. Change the locks on your home.

16. Get the book: Love must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson..... it is good.

She needs to feel the consquences. Later when she begins to waver, you can let her know you love her but her pain on you hurts a lot. RE: The WS try to use that line on the BS. Beat her to it and disarm her babble techniques.

JMHO,
L.

Get with a good lawyer and draw up a solid separation agreement with the view to D. I know this sounds hard but better to be prepared than not. Let your Lawyer know this is a perparation step.....they get paid anyway but better to be safe than sorry, if you can afford it.

There is no legal separation in my state. How do I do this?

Don't help her move. Let her figure out how she will do it.

I've pretty much already told her I would...how do I backout without major LBs? Also, I do NOT want OM to come over to my house to help her. Also, do not want her to have free access to everything.

Family stuff (wedding gifts, family purchases.....yes even the china), stay at home. She wants a toaster oven....let her go buy it.

So far, the only thing for sure that is "ours" that she wants to take is the couches...it kind of irritates me, and I may fight her to keep at least the loveseat, but I'm fighting the fine line between holding my ground and really pissing her off.

In reality, you want her to spend her A $$ into debit. Run her broke. She is going to do it anyway so don't stop her. U just keep yourself safe.

This is where things get sticky without a legal separation again...her debt is my debt without a divorce in my state...I probably need to talk to a lawyer, but I hate the idea...

. Change the locks on your home.

Looked into that...illegal to deny her access into the home because she is on the papers as well.

Thanks, Orchid...I appreciate the advice...let me know what you think about my dilemas above, but I appreciate the help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Trampled: There is no legal separation in my state. How do I do this?.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: If your state does not have this option, then talk with your lawyer. Work with the laws you have to protect your assests. If you are willing to let us know which state you are in, maybe some with experience in your state can offer suggestions.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Trampled: I've pretty much already told her I would...how do I backout without major LBs? Also, I do NOT want OM to come over to my house to help her. Also, do not want her to have free access to everything..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Help her move? Well you can change your mind. She does. Up to you. The first time, I watched the WS move his stuff out. Of course, I am a woman (like that's suppose to matter). I needed to make sure he didn't take more than his things. Funny, after 10 years, his things didn't amount to much. He took his man's dresser, bookcase, his computers and his clothes. He wanted to borrow the vaccuum cleaner and a few other items but I wouldn't let him. Told him I didn't know where he was going (he rented a room) and did not trust his ability to select a good and clean place. See he wouldn't tell me where he lived so why should I chance our family's things being subjected to unknown filth? As it turned out he had rented room in a nice clean home but I didn't know that at the time so I went with my gut. No regrets.

IMHO, be there to watch her move. Let her figure out how hard it is. After all, do you want to help her move in? Maybe you might find her brain lying around......remember she said she had to move out because......?

You do what you feel is safe for you. Remember she may not appreciate you help anyway but may want to sucker you into it. So make sure this isn't a setup. If she says you don't love her if you don't help her move, let her know you don't love her move. See the spin?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Trampled: So far, the only thing for sure that is "ours" that she wants to take is the couches...it kind of irritates me, and I may fight her to keep at least the loveseat, but I'm fighting the fine line between holding my ground and really pissing her off..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Small items are up to you. Let her know the furniture is a set and breaking it up is not good for any set. Use these kinds of times to make small inroads in getting your point across.

Of course she could retort then to give her the whole set, at which time you could say that the set belongs to the family. It was a family purchase (even if you don't have children, you are a family). Then it needs to stay with the family. See you are the one holding up the family unit.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Trampled: This is where things get sticky without a legal separation again...her debt is my debt without a divorce in my state...I probably need to talk to a lawyer, but I hate the idea....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Legally yes. Again talk with your lawyer. In CA, everything good and bad is 50/50. Work with what you can.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Trampled: Looked into that...illegal to deny her access into the home because she is on the papers as well.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: In my case, the WS was on the renter's agreement. Legally, I could not change the locks either. But I 'feared' for the 'safety' of my family and the contents of the home. So changing the locks is probably doable. I did not tell my H. I just did it. I called the police and said my H was associating with a questionable character and feared our family and items c/b in danger. I was told to change the locks or move. Now it was a recorded report so if he contested it, he would have to prove he was NOT associating with a questionable character. I supplied her name but that was not necessary. The point is I made a statement that was on record. Not a bad move and it was true. Again at the time, all I saw was my H turning in to this unknown character and receving calls from a woman whose vocabulary consisted of a lot of 4 letter words (with a degree from Berkeley no less - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

Have you done a background check on the WS?

L.

I am going to seek a lawyer and talk about protection without a divorce. I don't know who this kid is and what kind of influence he has over my WW and to tell you the truth, I'm not sure who my WW is...it's not my wife, that's for sure.

I'll probably help out a little bit with the move just the stuff she cannot get with her car, but I'll leave most of it up to her, packing, etc. I don't like the idea of her taking OUR furniture so we'll see how that goes...I hate the idea of standing up to her to the point where her last impression of me is anger and feeling like I'm "controlling" her again. After last night when I took away her access to the "family" money I thought she was going to go and file immediately...

I'm going to try and Plan A for a while, depending on how much contact she is going to allow once she moves out...my guess is very little, especially at first...I still don't have her phone number, but I can resort to writing her a letter and putting it on her car since she only works 1/2 block away from me now!

I don't know how all you have done this...I must say this is the hardest thing I have ever, ever done in my life. I feel like I'm doing the right thing and my heart still says, don't give up, but sometimes I just wonder...would it be easier just to let it go? Of course then the memories flood in...

I'll probalby take ark's advice and hold back the tears (hard) and just say, I love you, I'll miss you and I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks all...God Bless all of you!

Well, Orchid...you were right...I helped her move her new big [censored] bed into her apartment last night...she complained about having a headache and I was consoling her, telling her I hated to see her hurting, etc...she kept attacking me...I didn't fight back, though...I tried to use Ark's "babble" technique... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I asked her if she would reconsider and of course she said no. When we were done I tried to give her a hug and she was as stiff and cold as a board...I just couldn't handle it and left before I started crying...

She didn't even come back until like 11:30 that night...I'm sure she had to show wonderboy the new place...

I don't know what I'm doing...this is normal, right? Are her actions typical or is she just a raging *****?

I really don't like the person she has become and I wonder if the woman I love is ever going to return to this world...

Lord help me...

Dear Trampled,

Sorry you had to experience it but it is quite normal for the warped WS. On the other hand it is NOT normal for the rest of humanity, so you don't have to put up with it.

Now what are you going to do if she asks for more help?

L.

We'll see what happens...I don't intend to help her move or pack or anything...her biggest thing is her taking the couches...everything else she can probably get in her car, but she'll need a truck (like mine) to get the couches depending upon what kind of fight that is going to end up being...

Last night when she came home all I said to her was, "I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for and I hope you find happiness, but remember I do love you." Then I just turned out the light, I actually didn't even get out of bed to talk to her...she's got to walk right by the Master Bedroom when she comes in to go the the spare room she's been staying in and the dogs wake me up with their barking everytime she comes home so I always know when she gets back...that's one thing that will be nice...not being woke up at 3-4 am all the time as she's coming back from nights out with wonderboy...

I'm trying to be strong...this is hard...

Sorry about the bad language in the last post...I wasn't thinking...

Hey T,

How are you doing? Totally understand what you are going through. Remember pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. We know that the WS send the BS to their limits with their crazy acts. Vent here as often as you need. We understand.

take care,

L.

Well, she's out...she's still taking her sweet time about moving her general items out (clothes,etc.), but yesterday I took away her keys and garage door opener. She was quite upset, kept saying it was her house, too...etc. I simply asked her for a key to her apartment...I told her it was her house, but as long as she was on this "break" it was my sanctuary and I needed my space, peace, and security as well.

Honestly...and I hope I'm wrong and pray all the time. I haven't given up faith...but honestly...I don't think she's coming back. I'm dealing with a whole lot more here then simply a WW I think. She's got some serious mental and emotional problems that aren't going to be resolved overnight. This has been a problem for her for her entire life and she sees me as the enemy. It makes me so sad sometimes...

I don't know what God's plan is, but it's up to him now...she's on her own...I hope she can find some peace someday...

any ladies.......

http://www.san-andreas.com/mbladies/chat.php

Trampled- praying for you- I am there also and each day the Lord renews my Faith and washes me in His Holy Spirit. read Psalms-proverbs-anything in the new testament- just let the GOOD NEWS fall open and you will find comfort and strength.

PEACE OUT...and IN!

I'm not sure what to think of this...yesterday she came by to pick up more of her stuff. I took away her keys and garage door opener on Saturday so she had to call me to get in.

I was sitting there watching her and she just sat down and started crying...I reverted immediately to Plan A tactics and just started loving her, asking her if she wanted to talk, telling her I was there and it was going to be OK, etc.

She basically said she was lonely. I encouraged her, told her I knew she was a strong independent woman and could do anything she wants. You see, part of her issue is that she feels like I've taken over her life and she doesn't know who she is. While that may be true on the surface, the fact is she has never really had control of her own life, giving it away to whoever is nearest...and I basically took it over sub-conciously.

Well, anyway, I told to her, I know you don't necessarily believe anything I say anymore, and I know you've said you don't miss me, but I love you very much and miss you.

She paused for a moment and said she missed me, too. That was the first time she's said that in I don't know how long. I didn't push anything about relationships, etc. I simply told her that her 6 month "exile" was not my idea and I had never put any timelines on anything.

This sucks...I don't know how people have managed to tough it out for months and years...granted I don't have kids, but I can't do this forever...

This gets easier as time goes on, right?

I miss her a lot and want to call her, but have been pretty good about not calling her unless absolutely necessary.

I just keep getting this fear in my head that it's over. I don't see how separation w/ Plan A or Plan B is going to help save my marriage.

Patience, time and love is what you need to get through this. Here are some details of what has happed here @ MB for the ones whose marriages are either in recovery or have recovered.

1. Most BS and family (about 98%+) have been told to get a D or separation or the WS would.

2. Many here have been served or served the WS w/D or separation work. Probably at least a 40% if not more.

3. A fair chunk of the WS in these scenarios have moved out in an attempt to 'find themselves' when what they meant was continue to the A.

4. False recovery occurances M: 98%

5. Filing of the separation or D: 40%+

6. Completion of separation or D - 6 - 11%

7. Reconcilliation or remarriage: 100% of #5.

8. Went to jail or had charges filed for DM: 3%

9. Should have gone to jail for DM: 40%+

The above stats are mine. Based on what I have seen in my 3+ years @ MB. Remember these are the stats on the ones who recovered. So you see the recovery journey is long and hard.

Yet each BS can recover. Personal recovery comes first. That way if and when the WS chooses to recover the BS is in a much better position to aide in the reocovery.

JMHO of course,
L.

Whoa here,

There are so many Disrespectful Judgements in your posts, no wonder she is trying to get away...now with someone else, I cannot condone.

DJ's are by far my BIGGEST LB, so it takes one to know one.

I have found taking DJ's out of my life to be EXTREMELY challenging, and I'll bet as challenging for you too.

It takes a COMPLETE change in attitude towards your W.

Your attitude has been, up till now, one of being her protector, of taking care of her, of helping her. What this has said to her is that you don't think she can take care of herself, you don't think she is capable, and without you she is lost.
What happens in desperate times is you will hold onto her even more by trying to take care of her...no conducive to Plan A.

Yep, this is me, I had to learn by telling myself (with the shout) "WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TELLING HER WHAT SHE NEEDS IN HIM LIFE? WHAT MAKES YOU BETTER THAN HIM? WHAT MAKES YOU THE EXPERT ON LIVING HIM LIFE?

Who needs kids when you have been parenting your W all these years?

Listen to this you posted earlier:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and she cannot find anyway to build self-esteem on her own </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK Bucko, if she's not going to build SELF-esteem, who is going to do it for her? If it is YOUR-esteem, it would be called this, and not SELF-esteem. Are you now in charge of her SELF-esteem?

I am purposely harsh because it is not by being nice that shook me out of my attitude...I felt so RIGHT! (and self-righteous). Back away from the attitude, put it down, there is nothing about her life you know better about than she does...

You may be right in a way. I know I have screwed up. Thanks for making me feel even worse then I already do.

Trampled,

Go back to my threads starting in June 2002 and see how our situations are similar. See that you have the same questions I did. look at my mistakes (and dont do them). Look what happened when I finally did a good Plan A and Plan B.

In His arms.